Bosch Gen 5 Rumour - More Power updates coming!

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TheKaiser said:
on several Pinkbike e-bike reviews I've heard them mention that they turn the motor OFF once they're done climbing, and ride the bike unassisted on the DH in order to keep the motor from activating at an inopportune moment on the DH, which sounded crazy to me.
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I usually turn the power down descending so that it's not as abrupt of a difference when the motor cuts off at 20 mph. If you're in turbo then one moment you've got up to 750W then the next you go to put in a pedal stroke between jumps and nada. It's a bit unsettling. That's the only reason I'd want a class 3.
 
bmwpowere36m3 said:
I wonder if that's really market influence or simply what Avinox offered. I know folks want a skinner down tube... but if Avinox launched with a Bosch form-factor battery I bet they still would be selling like hot fire.

Big boy batteries are kind of necessary, given how many folks want to use full-power bikes or systems like Avinox which can suck through juice very quickly. I think the population that wants an eMTB to be more MTB, is a lot smaller than those lured by the moto aspect.

I've only ridden full-power, long travel eMTBs and I had the opportunity to ride an Orbea Rise SL while on vacation. EP600 with a 540 wh battery. I did two big rides (38 miles/5200' & 28 miles/6000'), both in ECO mode and it felt more akin to my MTB. Similar to my Norco Range, when I drop below tour mode... it like riding my MTB, but I'd rather ride my MTB at that point. I bought an eMTB to either get more laps at similar output or put in less effort on days when I'm not so fresh.
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Well the number of people on here I've heard bleating on about ugly fat down tubes and not caring about worse weight distribution far outweighs the people that dont car about the downtube look at want better handling.

In all honesty most emtb guys are not going full send, hardly ever get their wheels off the ground and heavy front weight bias doesnt matter anywhere near as much when to the majority are riding non aggressively with wheels on the ground.
 
Plummet said:
Well the number of people on here I've heard bleating on about ugly fat down tubes and not caring about worse weight distribution far outweighs the people that dont car about the downtube look at want better handling.

In all honesty most emtb guys are not going full send, hardly ever get their wheels off the ground and heavy front weight bias doesnt matter anywhere near as much when to the majority are riding non aggressively with wheels on the ground.
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We are in an Avinox echo chamber at the moment... if it doesn't have one, it may as well not exist. As far as riders and their level of send I would agree in the fact their riding style is more planted and any features or airtime is small.

You also have to factor riding style and speed, some want to plow more and others jib... even though both may equally send similar features. The jib'r will want to pop and manual off everything on trail.
 
Joecrow said:
Indeed but that is the way the Chinese work, kill the competition with dumping prices and stolen technology and corner the market!
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And always financed by Chinese Gov.
It all started with most companies migrating to China, and increasing their know how.

All paid their Production & Logistic platforms, and in the meantime, they had all R&D for cheap, throught reverse engineering

I'm not saying their evil or to avoid product (if that's possible...), just this:

Monkey see... Monkey do!
 
bmwpowere36m3 said:
We are in an Avinox echo chamber at the moment... if it doesn't have one, it may as well not exist. As far as riders and their level of send I would agree in the fact their riding style is more planted and any features or airtime is small.

You also have to factor riding style and speed, some want to plow more and others jib... even though both may equally send similar features. The jib'r will want to pop and manual off everything on trail.
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All fair comments. I would put myself in the jib'r In your list. I do manual, pop, bunnyhops and nose wheelie stuff. Doing thar stuff is more important to me than more power and more battery. Also I am 50% mtb, so do want to be too far removed from the mtb feel, ie heavy ass front end doesn't manual well is a real deal breaker for me.
 
Plummet said:
I dont think thats a fair call. They were electric motor gurus first before e bikes and have inovatted past the what other companies are doing. That is not monkey see monkey do mentality. If it was they would be putting out 85nm copy cat motor
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Plummet said:
I dont think thats a fair call. They were electric motor gurus first before e bikes and have inovatted past the what other companies are doing. That is not monkey see monkey do mentality. If it was they would be putting out 85nm copy cat motors.
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I'm not saying if it's fair or not.
Japanese also copy cat europeans motorcycles and car engines, and made it (much) better.
Yes, they already had the know how, but reverse engineering is so much cheaper...

Regarding Chinese being Gurus, sorry, don't have any information or such acquaintance of that.

What I know, is this:
Any manufacturer can make good/excelent product if their teams are knowlledgeable and board/higher management can set GOAL.
Just look at Apple, Ducati (in Motogp they beat Honda/Yamaha....).

I don't have any issue buying Chinese, nor Indy, nor any other place, because I buy a product, usually I prefer to buy ORIGINAL and not knock offs.
Avinox sounds legit, and is a product that for certain will attract many, but not all.

There is a really big AURA around Avinox, and I'll keep my Bakarus, until some company releases a motor the size and function has HPR 60, but with ~85/90Nm and 600W, and a nice 600 to 700 Wh battery - Shimano?
 
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TheKaiser said:
That is interesting that you increase the assistance level for DH sections, and climb in a lower power mode. I can't say that I've made a habit of that, unless maybe I am riding with people on analog bikes, but I definitely appreciate the power boost out of corners on DH sections, just as you've mentioned. Its funny, because on several Pinkbike e-bike reviews I've heard them mention that they turn the motor OFF once they're done climbing, and ride the bike unassisted on the DH in order to keep the motor from activating at an inopportune moment on the DH, which sounded crazy to me. I guess it might make sense if you're riding really slimy slow speed skinnies, with a lot of turns, and the torque of the motor might break your back wheel loose but, outside of that circumstance, it seems to just up the fun factor, with no downside.
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Yup, and it really doesn't use much power going DH. Maybe 1%. It's like having an awkward foot throttle. Haha! We do have some trails with techy bridges and log rides. For those I tone it down to tour+, then right back on the gas to emtb+!
 
Blue Spruce said:
I usually turn the power down descending so that it's not as abrupt of a difference when the motor cuts off at 20 mph. If you're in turbo then one moment you've got up to 750W then the next you go to put in a pedal stroke between jumps and nada. It's a bit unsettling. That's the only reason I'd want a class 3.
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Even if it is reduced power it would be nice to have a little something above 20mph. I find it helps to be in a little lower of a gear in that scenario when hitting the non-assisted wall.
 
Does anyone have any information on when the update is going to be announced?

Is the announcement on May 27th?
 
Probbly more a marketing update. The 100nm/750w upgrade means the moter now derates for heat and so it will do that even quicker. The 85nm mode will run all day without derate. I suspect that for 99% of the use cases an upgrade will make no real difference. The Avinox derates as well !
 
Having work in the automotive industry Bosch we're our main competitor and I know them to be a very conservative set up. The would not do something that would put their products at reputational risk.
If they do some design enhancements it will have been well thought through and tested in terms of performance and reliability
 
Lee Dove said:
Probbly more a marketing update. The 100nm/750w upgrade means the moter now derates for heat and so it will do that even quicker. The 85nm mode will run all day without derate. I suspect that for 99% of the use cases an upgrade will make no real difference. The Avinox derates as well !
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Nope...according to the test, the Avinox M2S shows little to no derating, unlike the Bosch. Its simply better..in almost all points.


 
HanzFranz said:
Nope...according to the test, the Avinox M2S shows little to no derating, unlike the Bosch. Its simply better..in almost all points.


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+1

In an interview for their new product launch (M2/M2S) they stated the primary contributor to derating was the battery (temp) in the past. Hence, the need to design and manufacture a new cell to support the 1500W rating of the new motor.

We don't know yet, how the Bosch CX will perform with this expected update... it may derate quickly. I'm sure whatever they release will allow the motor to last as long as the warranty, at least. Though longterm use in high assist modes will wear the motor out quicker, no doubt.
 
Avinox fanboys trying not to derail a Bosch thread with Avinox glazing and ignoring DJI's vapid short support windows cuz mtb industry is different to drone motor industry

1776873229530.webp
 
Fanboy… sure. I ride a Bosch CX5 and actually like it. That’s exactly why I can tell the difference between facts and emotional attachment…
Had a test ride on the Avinox PX last week… after that, going back to Bosch is....a bit of a.....🫤
 
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HanzFranz said:
Fanboy… sure. I ride a Bosch CX5 and actually like it. That’s exactly why I can tell the difference between facts and emotional attachment…
Had a test ride on the Avinox PX last week… after that, going back to Bosch is....a bit of a.....🫤
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I believe you. It's not emotional to me and my personal value is not defined by my e-bike motor system. I'm totally happy with what I have for my needs and terrain and that's enough for me.

Was it mostly the power and level of assistance that made the difference for you?
 
OffitThatM8 said:
Avinox fanboys trying not to derail a Bosch thread with Avinox glazing and ignoring DJI's vapid short support windows cuz mtb industry is different to drone motor industry
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Whose the fanboy?

Based on testing I've seen publoished the Bosch CX derates, not nearly as bad as the original Avinox M1. Avinox stated batteries were the choke point and made new ones for M2/M2S. Bosch is rumored to release a power software update to the CX, but the hardware in unchanged. Not to mention this will be the second power update with same hardware. So, its not unrealistic to think this rumored update may not deliver as much power or for as long as we may wish.

Nothing fanboy about it. I just bought a new range with a bosch CX, so its like I'm a hater. I can also desire or praise what Avinox is doing.
 
Just for the kicks...
Thermal behaviour comparing
CX5 vs M2S & FS700 battery - 20min --> CX5 derates (probably due to Batteries)
CX5 vs M2S & FS800 battery - 20min --> Very similar, may I say!
CX5 vs the "old" CX4 - 15min (funny how CX4 is more "linear")

Graphs and information from:


WWW.EBIKE-LABS.DE

Avinox M2S needs the special FS700 battery to show all GO

PS: A bit offtopic - It would be nice to see a real update from Bosch in Battery Charging!

[EDIT 23/04

Question:
If the motor might deliver more torque, battery will have higher current draw, and will have a worse derate?
Meaning, in the 20min, the motor will reduce power quicker than maintaining current torque and power?



verlauf_20_min__relativ_____.webp


verlauf_20_min__relativ_____ (1).webp


verlauf_15_min__absolut__watt__.webp
 
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Can anyone confirm the details of the upgrades yet? It seems there is a consensus on 120nm, but I want to know:
(a) Wattage.
(b) Assist ratio (e.g. 600%, 800%...).
(c) Date of release (not just announcement).
(d) Charging speed of the rumoured 'fast charger', and date of availability.
(e) Details of the rumoured new battery tech, and date of availability.

My CYC motor has shat the bed, so I'm thinking of getting a Bosch bike to keep me going until someone makes a proper Avinox super-enduro with a removable battery. But I weigh 110kg and mostly self-shuttle steep enduro trails so I need much more assistance than the current motor provides.
 
Just putting the Rumors together:

a) 750w/ 120nm
b) 600% support ratio
c) Announced May 5th, available May 27th
d) Fast charger, can't guess the charging rate, but availability is pretty far out, I read 1st quarter 2027.
e) Batteries, just a wild guess here but I don't think the jump in battery tech is even available yet. My guess honestly is that they release a semi-solid state battery along with the fast charger in early 2027 as the components might need to be compatible with each other. Giant is getting semi-solid state 3-4th quarter of 2026 as a data point.
 
Suns_PSD said:
Just putting the Rumors together:

a) 750w/ 120nm
b) 600% support ratio
c) Announced May 5th, available May 27th
d) Fast charger, can't guess the charging rate, but availability is pretty far out, I read 1st quarter 2027.
e) Batteries, just a wild guess here but I don't think the jump in battery tech is even available yet. My guess honestly is that they release a semi-solid state battery along with the fast charger in early 2027 as the components might need to be compatible with each other. Giant is getting semi-solid state 3-4th quarter of 2026 as a data point.
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D)Fast Charger

Hope it's compatible with ALL Smartsystem batteries.
Germans, being Germans, might "upgrade" from 4A to 6A! Ahahah
50% upgrade 😜
 
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