Battery life

gtaadicto

Member
Jan 26, 2019
95
75
Leon,Spain
That gives you an underaverage distance of 48kms/500Wh. Maybe you are always on max power? What is your weight? What bike model? Tires?
The bike is a Vitus E-Sommet VR 2019 with E8000 motor.
My weight is 80 kg.
I am mostly on Eco, but I use Trail mode on rough climbs and a maximum of 2 minutes of Boost mode per ride.
Have been using Minion DHF 2.5 front/ HR2 2.5 front in the summer and now in the winter I have a Shorty 2.5 in the front and a Schwalbe Eddy Current Rear 2.8.
Tire pressure has not been particularly high (15 psi front/17 psi rear), here in Spain the trails are mostly loose over hard and more pressure means skidding uncontrollably.
A typical ride in my local trails is 20-25 km long and 600-700m of elevation, and I use around 50-60 battery.
If I go to the mountains a typical ride is 25-35 km long with 800-1200m of elevation, and I use around 60-85% battery
 

Zimmerframe

MUPPET
Subscriber
Jun 12, 2019
11,593
16,267
Brittany, France
My BT-E8010 battery is at 93% health with 67 cycles and 3200km. Is it normal?
The bike is a Vitus E-Sommet VR 2019 with E8000 motor.
My weight is 80 kg.
I am mostly on Eco, but I use Trail mode on rough climbs and a maximum of 2 minutes of Boost mode per ride.
Have been using Minion DHF 2.5 front/ HR2 2.5 front in the summer and now in the winter I have a Shorty 2.5 in the front and a Schwalbe Eddy Current Rear 2.8.
Tire pressure has not been particularly high (15 psi front/17 psi rear), here in Spain the trails are mostly loose over hard and more pressure means skidding uncontrollably.
A typical ride in my local trails is 20-25 km long and 600-700m of elevation, and I use around 50-60 battery.
If I go to the mountains a typical ride is 25-35 km long with 800-1200m of elevation, and I use around 60-85% battery

Everyone seems to get different ranges, depending on how you ride. Your battery usage/distance/climb seems ok and would fit with some of old e8000 results. I think my battery also dropped off a few % quite quickly at the start, so depending on the circumstances, that's also fairly normal for whatever reason.
 

RickBullotta

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Jun 5, 2019
1,541
1,299
USA
Everyone seems to get different ranges, depending on how you ride. Your battery usage/distance/climb seems ok and would fit with some of old e8000 results. I think my battery also dropped off a few % quite quickly at the start, so depending on the circumstances, that's also fairly normal for whatever reason.

I would suggest that it is *NOT* OK (though it does fit with others' results). Shimano claims 1000 cycles would reduce battery health to 60%. The OP would be at 60% after 380 cycles, so the battery is degrading 300% faster than it should.
 

Steviewunda

Member
Apr 18, 2020
7
2
New Zealand
My original BT-E8035 battery is at 90% health after only 13 charge cycles - my backup battery is at 100% after 8 charge cycles (as it should be). Yesterday my original battery dropped 3 (out of 5 ) bars riding mostly in trail mode on mostly level, paved paths around the city. Tyres are inflated to 30 psi for commuting. I'm observing Shimano's recommendations regarding battery care. I don't like my chances of having 60% battery health after 1000 charges ;-(
 

Growmac

Active member
Subscriber
Dec 4, 2020
233
232
Wilts, UK
E8035 here. 11 months old, 43 charge cycles, 2400 km, 82% health.

I have the familiar problems of a lack of reserve, and battery cutting out when loaded below about 40% charge.

Seems unfit for purpose to me, especially given the prices involved.
 

Spiff

Active member
Feb 27, 2019
279
149
Earth
My battery BT-E8010 (External) has 3600Km, 42 Charge cycles and 98% Health.
  • I ride mainly in ECO, some times in Trail and Boost only in challenging trails.
  • Climate is dry with temperatures ranging from 2-20ºC in winter to 30-35ºC in summer with little rain or mud.
  • After a ride I store the battery inside the house at 30-50% charge level and I charge again to 100% the night before the next ride.

Looks like many batteries are having a much lower health after very few cycles, being the worse the Internal ones BT-E8035, I will try to summarize the possible causes suggested in this and other threads:

  • Old FW level in battery BMS: Unlikely, FW in battery BMS has never been updated by Shimano, it is the original one. Shimano web page for FW upgrades does not show any new one for the battery.
  • Different BMS in external vs internal batteries, due to different battery form factor, being the BMS in internal batteries more prone to error. This has not been checked or confirmed because nobody opens dead batteries and post analysis results and pictures
  • Weak cells: Could be that different revision of the battery have cells from different manufacturers. As the batteries are in a series and parallel connection one defective cell could cause a complete parallel branch going disconnected causing a drastic battery health issue. This has not been checked or confirmed because nobody opens dead batteries and post analysis results and pictures.
  • Different charger model used to charge the battery. Shimano offers different charger models: slow, fast, etc and one of them may cause battery health issues. Many of us are using the EC-E6000 and I do not have issues.
  • Battery storing conditions: Lithium cells life is affected by some factors, being the main ones that may shorten life: Store empty (0% charge) of fully charged (100% charge) battery for longer periods of time. But I expect that all of us know this factors and storing it at a proper charge level between 30 and 70%
  • Different battery HW revision: This is the "suffix letter" in the battery PN, i.e.: BT-E8010C, being the C the HW revision number that may indicate different cells or BMS HW. Again, This has not been checked or confirmed because nobody opens dead batteries and post analysis results and pictures.


And now a new possible cause that might cause that internal batteries are more prone to have a lower health: Could it be that the internal batteries mounted inside the closed battery down tube can not dissipate heat causing higher temperatures in cells and thus shortening the life?
  • Some bike manufacturers may improve the refrigeration of internal batteries by adding air inlets or fins in the tube cover, so the worse battery health could be related to manufacturers that have hermetic tubes with no refrigeration improvements.
  • While the external batteries are mounted outside the tube and having a good refrigeration by air convection and improved health.
 
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Derek

Member
Jun 11, 2019
32
12
Aust
Now that the Steps system has been around for about 3 years, I'm just wondering what your experiences are with battery life:

How many Km's/miles (total) have you got out of your battery so far?
How many charge cycles have you done?
Have you had to replace a battery yet?
Any issues with the battery range or performance over time?

I've had my E8000 battery for about a year and done 1400 Km. Not sure how many charge cycles but probably only about 25.

Battery life still seems good, but I notice that it has died completely on me a few times recently while still showing 2 bars on the battery/display. Putting it in boost up a hill has killed it both times. A few other people have reported this. I've also noticed that riding in boost when the battery is getting low (2-3 bars) drains it really quickly. The display goes to one bar red but when I turn the bike off for a minute or two and turn it back on, it goes back to 2 bars.

What this shows is that remaining battery life estimation is not accurate and battery depletion not linear. Probably not a surprise - but it's a pain not being able to rely on the range estimate when you're a long way from base.
I know an old thread but thought I would add my data to the mix. E8000, EC-E6000 charger. 2 x BT8010 batteries. Generally warm to hot climates charged at around 25 to 35 plus celcius. Never turned charger off during charge cycle as I let it auto shut down every time. Both batteries used and swapped without any real consistency (which is actually an interesting thing as both batteries show very close number of charge cycles) which I highly doubt unless a total blind luck thing... Have taken both batteries to flat, red then shut down state not very often though still supplying power to Di2 with no motor assist. Generally take batteries to 40% or less on rides from a full charge (1 to 2 bars left). Charges always to fully charged and can leave them fully charged for a week at times. Often leave them with whatever remaining charge they had post ride, so 1 or 2 bars so not very sure what that is as a % left as the bar indicators are definately not linear. Stat's are total 7411kms (original motor) battery 1 is 51 cycles and 90% current state is 25%. Battery 2 is 52 cycles and 90% current state is 58%. Bike has been derestricted from new and generally ride eco on a reduced assist %, trail std settings. Boost is rarely ever used and has been changed to 300% and 80nm. Riding dry enduro conditions.
 

1oldfart

Active member
Oct 6, 2019
638
292
Outdoors
I know an old thread but thought I would add my data to the mix. E8000, EC-E6000 charger. 2 x BT8010 batteries. Generally warm to hot climates charged at around 25 to 35 plus celcius. Never turned charger off during charge cycle as I let it auto shut down every time. Both batteries used and swapped without any real consistency (which is actually an interesting thing as both batteries show very close number of charge cycles) which I highly doubt unless a total blind luck thing... Have taken both batteries to flat, red then shut down state not very often though still supplying power to Di2 with no motor assist. Generally take batteries to 40% or less on rides from a full charge (1 to 2 bars left). Charges always to fully charged and can leave them fully charged for a week at times. Often leave them with whatever remaining charge they had post ride, so 1 or 2 bars so not very sure what that is as a % left as the bar indicators are definately not linear. Stat's are total 7411kms (original motor) battery 1 is 51 cycles and 90% current state is 25%. Battery 2 is 52 cycles and 90% current state is 58%. Bike has been derestricted from new and generally ride eco on a reduced assist %, trail std settings. Boost is rarely ever used and has been changed to 300% and 80nm. Riding dry enduro conditions.
I am not sure i understand you. If you used 10%(now 90% left) of one battery plus 10% from an other battery it sounds like you would have used 20% if you had 1 battery to do 7,411kms. From memory i read they suggest we buy a new battery when it reaches 70% wich would happen with your numbers around the 11,116kms mark. With less than 70% it will not only have a smaller charge when filled but also will not hold the charge like a new one. I remember doing the maths and from reading many posts there was a bit of a consensus that a 500Wh expected life(the first 30%, from 100% down to 70%) would give 20,000kms and i had planned to use my Ebike for 4 years, replacing the battery ounce to achieve 40,000kms.
 

Derek

Member
Jun 11, 2019
32
12
Aust
I am not sure i understand you. If you used 10%(now 90% left) of one battery plus 10% from an other battery it sounds like you would have used 20% if you had 1 battery to do 7,411kms. From memory i read they suggest we buy a new battery when it reaches 70% wich would happen with your numbers around the 11,116kms mark. With less than 70% it will not only have a smaller charge when filled but also will not hold the charge like a new one. I remember doing the maths and from reading many posts there was a bit of a consensus that a 500Wh expected life(the first 30%, from 100% down to 70%) would give 20,000kms and i had planned to use my Ebike for 4 years, replacing the battery ounce to achieve 40,000kms.
Your maths may be correct if you actually believe the % values and cycle counts that the BMS is showing... so yes if I had only 1 battery you could guess that it would now show 80% after approx 102 cycles and 7411kms. But remember the kms per cycle I get will be very different from someone else as it depends on many factors...incl temp, all up weight, elevation and mode / cadence etc etc. The % capacity reduction I suspect is also not linear so I may yet see 5 additional cycles and % may drop 5%... depends on the cells that make up the battery and the balancing of cells. But yes if we believe the figures and I continue to ride in the same way then it means I may get the kms you have calculated at 70% . If your all up weight is 50% less than me then you may get twice that distance ?. For me it will be more interesting to see what actual distance I get from a full charge over similar rides as the battery charge cycle increases.
 

Derek

Member
Jun 11, 2019
32
12
Aust
Your maths may be correct if you actually believe the % values and cycle counts that the BMS is showing... so yes if I had only 1 battery you could guess that it would now show 80% after approx 102 cycles and 7411kms. But remember the kms per cycle I get will be very different from someone else as it depends on many factors...incl temp, all up weight, elevation and mode / cadence etc etc. The % capacity reduction I suspect is also not linear so I may yet see 5 additional cycles and % may drop 5%... depends on the cells that make up the battery and the balancing of cells. But yes if we believe the figures and I continue to ride in the same way then it means I may get the kms you have calculated at 70% . If your all up weight is 50% less than me then you may get twice that distance ?. For me it will be more interesting to see what actual distance I get from a full charge over similar rides as the battery charge cycle increases.
A good question to anyone out there is has anyone hit 70% or 60% yet? What kms and how many charge cycles? And more Importantly has your actual riding range on a full charge reduced by 30 to 40%?
 

Tonytank

Member
Jun 5, 2019
68
32
London
Done 3000miles on battery and 2nd motor, took bike to shop to check battery life as only 3weeks left until end of warranty.
It had 75 charge cycles and 53% capacity.
Sent to madison for warranty claim which they agreed and told the shop it should be at least 80% after 1000 cycles or 2 years.
 

Derek

Member
Jun 11, 2019
32
12
Aust
Done 3000miles on battery and 2nd motor, took bike to shop to check battery life as only 3weeks left until end of warranty.
It had 75 charge cycles and 53% capacity.
Sent to madison for warranty claim which they agreed and told the shop it should be at least 80% after 1000 cycles or 2 years.
Interesting.. so 1000 cycles or 2 years.. so does that imply age is also a factor or was he merely indicating warranty period. As I am at approx 52 cycles after 2 years and 90%. Love to see how many riders would hit that 1000 cycles in 2 years ? if you use a rough guide say average of 40kms per cycle then that means you would need to do 40,000 kms in 2 years. Hahaha most people might average that in the family car in 2 years.
 

1oldfart

Active member
Oct 6, 2019
638
292
Outdoors
I am no expert but from my readings *a general average* is 7 Wh/km so 1 charge from a 500Wh is about 70 kms. If you scroll up to post #45 that is about Derek numbers. With 300 charges we might get about 21,000kms that is likely what i expect to do in 2 years without a car. The battery is considered good for the first 30% from new 100% down to 70%. After the max charge is smaller and it might discharge faster so the range is quite limited. You just have a heavy bike.
 
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Tonytank

Member
Jun 5, 2019
68
32
London
Interesting.. so 1000 cycles or 2 years.. so does that imply age is also a factor or was he merely indicating warranty period. As I am at approx 52 cycles after 2 years and 90%. Love to see how many riders would hit that 1000 cycles in 2 years ? if you use a rough guide say average of 40kms per cycle then that means you would need to do 40,000 kms in 2 years. Hahaha most people might average that in the family car in 2 years.
I think he was indicating warranty period. I really had no idea the battery was that bad, altho range had dropped a bit i could still comfortably get 30miles out of one charge and 2-3k feet of height. It was a bt8010 battery
 

1oldfart

Active member
Oct 6, 2019
638
292
Outdoors
One thing i read is doing a full discharge might help because and my choice of words might be wrong to balance the whole battery just plan to reach empty close to home and expect a long charging time. If someone here does it it would be interesting to see if the battery that sort of speak went from 0% to 100% will show as more healthy. I do not have enough cycles on my battery to test it and hope a real improvement.
 

Derek

Member
Jun 11, 2019
32
12
Aust
One thing i read is doing a full discharge might help because and my choice of words might be wrong to balance the whole battery just plan to reach empty close to home and expect a long charging time. If someone here does it it would be interesting to see if the battery that sort of speak went from 0% to 100% will show as more healthy. I do not have enough cycles on my battery to test it and hope a real improvement.
Good idea and has some merit, less so with lithium but I will try today as have a long ride planned this morning and can easily fully discharge it. Just got to time it just right ???
 

1oldfart

Active member
Oct 6, 2019
638
292
Outdoors
Good idea and has some merit, less so with lithium but I will try today as have a long ride planned this morning and can easily fully discharge it. Just got to time it just right ???
So we will be reading your report # before and after. ;)
 

Derek

Member
Jun 11, 2019
32
12
Aust
So we will be reading your report # before and after. ;)
Just finished and took some readings. Will post when I have recovered ? a few interesting figures. Waiting for battery to recover too before I charge it. Took it to red and until motor said no..
 

Derek

Member
Jun 11, 2019
32
12
Aust
Just finished and took some readings. Will post when I have recovered ? a few interesting figures. Waiting for battery to recover too before I charge it. Took it to red and until motor said no..
Ok so some data from today's ride. When this bike and battery was new, the possible (estimated) range indicated on eco was 100km. I havnt looked for a while but fully charged this morning it now shows possible (estimated) only 89km so a 11 km reduction. After a 60km ride today with approx 70% on eco and 30% on trail I achieved 60km to battery fully depleted. Yes I understand a lot of variables.. so battery info post ride shows 9% battery but can't select any mode incl walk, power for Di2 only. Attached are screenshots before a full charge and after. So still shows 90% avail at 100% charged. Approx temp during charge was 25c and took approx 3hrs before charger auto shutoff as my usual charge method. I checked and on eco the possible (estimated) still only 89kms ?. Cycle count increased by 1 as expected.
Screenshot_20210605-124506_ST Unlocker.png


Screenshot_20210605-190649_ST Unlocker.png
 

Derek

Member
Jun 11, 2019
32
12
Aust
Ok so some data from today's ride. When this bike and battery was new, the possible (estimated) range indicated on eco was 100km. I havnt looked for a while but fully charged this morning it now shows possible (estimated) only 89km so a 11 km reduction. After a 60km ride today with approx 70% on eco and 30% on trail I achieved 60km to battery fully depleted. Yes I understand a lot of variables.. so battery info post ride shows 9% battery but can't select any mode incl walk, power for Di2 only. Attached are screenshots before a full charge and after. So still shows 90% avail at 100% charged. Approx temp during charge was 25c and took approx 3hrs before charger auto shutoff as my usual charge method. I checked and on eco the possible (estimated) still only 89kms ?. Cycle count increased by 1 as expected. View attachment 63420

View attachment 63421
Oh I should mention that my bike has been derestricted from pretty much new so provides assist up to final gear ratio which is around 46kph. Some ride stats below. This is not my usual type of ride. Normally full enduro, today was gravel trails no real tech and more about getting the kms done to use the battery.
Screenshot_20210605-192849_Strava.png
Screenshot_20210605-192911_Strava.png
 

TPEHAK

Active member
Nov 23, 2020
145
111
USA Seattle WA
Yamaha battery, 4 years old, more, than 500 charging cycles, about 7000 miles, riden only at maximum assist level with derestricted motor - the battery still works as good as at the day 1 when I bought my EMTB new.
 

1oldfart

Active member
Oct 6, 2019
638
292
Outdoors
I guess this is to be expected. Any company and retailer can claim the battery is the best available in the world. If 3 years later people have some complaints they might say now we use new/better technology. Up to now i am putting my trust in Yamaha and i have no reason to change my position. Hopefully the good reliable ones will offer bikes we like to ride. Please Yamaha make Efatbikes.
 
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