Levo Gen 2 Are Brose & Specialized Fixing Their Motor Problem ?

[MiTurboComp]

Little known fact: I would just check your Marine grease as most are Aluminium based, this can react with the standard grease found on your normal bearings and turn it back to liquid. This is why a lot of boat trailer bearings fail when people take the grease cap off and pack it with marine grease, then all the actual grease runs out of the bearings and they fail!

Bearing Man,
Hats off for your wise postings. What type of grease do you think Specialized uses for their bearings?
Does The Ebike Motor Center use the same, similar or a better one you won’t mind sharing such?

 

[High Rock Ruti]

I was in a big LBS today and they confirmed to me that this is the case, rolling two year warranty on Brose motors, same as Shimano

Unfortunately I was in there to drop off my Vitus E-Sommet with a failed E8000, they told me that Shimano have no motors in stock, ETA is 3 months..... that Levo is getting awfully tempting!

High Rock Ruti

Yes and Specialized ALWAYS has plenty of motors available, you know the principle of "demand and supply".

Warm Regards Ruti

 

[billium]

I do have to correct you on your statement "They use waterproof grease as part of their bearing 'upgrade' because of above, i.e. they have no fix for water intrusion."

Sorry that was poor choice of words on my part.
I think you have created a well-designed improvement to a piss-poor original design and I commend your work on this.

As a retired Engineering manager who went through many brutal Engineering review meetings over the years, I think that bad original design needs to be called out and fixed.
Just looking at the before pic it is obvious that water will wick along the crank and then gravity will keep a puddle inside. Hmmm, I wonder if that might be a problem down the road ......
They could have designed the casting to accept an inexpensive standard double lip oil seal on the outside that could be replaced every couple of years but I doubt they even thought about water intrusion.
You also pointed out the omission of casting face material next to one cover screw making the paper gasket there impossible to compress. Who does that - ever? If you cannot support a paper gasket all the way around for some strange reason then you change to a different solution like EPDM. How on earth did that omission/change get past a DR meeting?

I know I sound like a grumpy old fart but I think many here are letting the manufacturers off too easy.
Ebikes do have a hard life and things will break - crashes, pedal strikes, shock loads can all cause mechanical failure but keeping the water out should be easy.
For the cost of three or four expensive E-bikes you can buy a brand new electric car that will have at least one electric motor designed to be driven through & sprayed with water at 70+mph for many tens of thousands of miles without requiring motor replacement(s) due to water damage. The engineering for sealing a shaft at 100 rpm is just not that hard.

 

[Bearing Man]

Bearing Man,
Hats off for your wise postings. What type of grease do you think Specialized uses for their bearings?
Does The Ebike Motor Center use the same, similar or a better one you won’t mind sharing such?

Just so there is no confusion, the motors that Specialized use in all but their SL bikes are manufactured by the German company Brose. The outer facing bearings of all eBike motors, regardless of make, are always pre-lubricated from the bearing manufacturers and will have what ever grease they fit as standard.
Although putting specialist greases inside a roller bearing can help a little, the biggest thing is to not let the water get inside in the first place.

If we do have a bearing that we know will have a hard time like the Yamaha PW-X also known as Giant SyncDrive Pro, depending on the bearing we are using we may wash out the standard grease and re-pack with Motorex 2000 or the like.

DO NOT use high pressure or low friction greases (Teflon or Ceramic based etc.) on the sprag clutch bearings.

 

[MiTurboComp]

Sorry that was poor choice of words on my part.
I think you have created a well-designed improvement to a piss-poor original design and I commend your work on this.

As a retired Engineering manager who went through many brutal Engineering review meetings over the years, I think that bad original design needs to be called out and fixed.
Just looking at the before pic it is obvious that water will wick along the crank and then gravity will keep a puddle inside. Hmmm, I wonder if that might be a problem down the road ......
They could have designed the casting to accept an inexpensive standard double lip oil seal on the outside that could be replaced every couple of years but I doubt they even thought about water intrusion.
You also pointed out the omission of casting face material next to one cover screw making the paper gasket there impossible to compress. Who does that - ever? If you cannot support a paper gasket all the way around for some strange reason then you change to a different solution like EPDM. How on earth did that omission/change get past a DR meeting?

I know I sound like a grumpy old fart but I think many here are letting the manufacturers off too easy.
Ebikes do have a hard life and things will break - crashes, pedal strikes, shock loads can all cause mechanical failure but keeping the water out should be easy.
For the cost of three or four expensive E-bikes you can buy a brand new electric car that will have at least one electric motor designed to be driven through & sprayed with water at 70+mph for many tens of thousands of miles without requiring motor replacement(s) due to water damage. The engineering for sealing a shaft at 100 rpm is just not that hard.

IMHO, your most salient post. The problem arises from the Brose design flaws. What their bearings manufacturers choose for lubricant is minor in comparison.

Nonetheless, thanks to all for sharing Levo’s Brose motor experiences, maintenance and potential warranty replacement strategies. The hunk of change I invested in my ‘22 Comp Carbon will be the better for it.

 

[Bearing Man]

Sorry that was poor choice of words on my part.
I think you have created a well-designed improvement to a piss-poor original design and I commend your work on this.

As a retired Engineering manager who went through many brutal Engineering review meetings over the years, I think that bad original design needs to be called out and fixed.
Just looking at the before pic it is obvious that water will wick along the crank and then gravity will keep a puddle inside. Hmmm, I wonder if that might be a problem down the road ......
They could have designed the casting to accept an inexpensive standard double lip oil seal on the outside that could be replaced every couple of years but I doubt they even thought about water intrusion.
You also pointed out the omission of casting face material next to one cover screw making the paper gasket there impossible to compress. Who does that - ever? If you cannot support a paper gasket all the way around for some strange reason then you change to a different solution like EPDM. How on earth did that omission/change get past a DR meeting?

I know I sound like a grumpy old fart but I think many here are letting the manufacturers off too easy.
Ebikes do have a hard life and things will break - crashes, pedal strikes, shock loads can all cause mechanical failure but keeping the water out should be easy.
For the cost of three or four expensive E-bikes you can buy a brand new electric car that will have at least one electric motor designed to be driven through & sprayed with water at 70+mph for many tens of thousands of miles without requiring motor replacement(s) due to water damage. The engineering for sealing a shaft at 100 rpm is just not that hard.

I can't say I disagree with a single word you write here. Although there is one point you're missing. And I'm not sticking up for the manufacturers when I point this out, but when you are a huge corporation run by the bean counters you can see the logic.

The biggest world market for bikes by far is for commuter bikes. Recreational bikes like EMTB's may be popular in a few countries, but compared to the commuter markets of Europe, Japan and China, there is no comparison!
eBike motors in road bikes don't have the same issues as EMTB's and rarely fail in comparison.

So here's the dilemma... you are selling 90% of your product into a market with virtually no problems, and 10% of your products into a market that has a 1% warranty return. Do you invest millions into designing, testing, manufacturing and marketing a product to keep 1% of your customers happy, or do you just keep making what you know works for the other 99%?

I know it's wrong and unfair to the minorities like us, but that just seems to be how life works. I am sure this situation will get better over the next few years. When they stop putting all their effort into making motors ever smaller and lighter.

 

[billium]

I can't say I disagree with a single word you write here. Although there is one point you're missing. And I'm not sticking up for the manufacturers when I point this out, but when you are a huge corporation run by the bean counters you can see the logic.

The biggest world market for bikes by far is for commuter bikes. Recreational bikes like EMTB's may be popular in a few countries, but compared to the commuter markets of Europe, Japan and China, there is no comparison!
eBike motors in road bikes don't have the same issues as EMTB's and rarely fail in comparison.

So here's the dilemma... you are selling 90% of your product into a market with virtually no problems, and 10% of your products into a market that has a 1% warranty return. Do you invest millions into designing, testing, manufacturing and marketing a product to keep 1% of your customers happy, or do you just keep making what you know works for the other 99%?

I know it's wrong and unfair to the minorities like us, but that just seems to be how life works. I am sure this situation will get better over the next few years. When they stop putting all their effort into making motors ever smaller and lighter.

The process and requirements/specification is key to any product design - even those designed to lowest cost.
In this case I would not fault anyone at Brose for broken sprags because the unexpected use case( pedal strike) likely exceeded the original design spec. No foul - just change the spec & improve the design in the next iteration.
But for water intrusion, I would argue that commuters in China probably ride their bike in rain MORE than we do because we can cancel our ride if it is raining but they have to get to work no matter how bad the weather. The engineer who designed the case did so to a budget for sure but there should have been a specification too. Did that spec mention water or not? Those who wrote the spec without proper water mitigation or signed off on a design change to ignore it are the ones at fault and that impacts their bottom line too.

Back on topic, here is my key question:
If I buy a brand new V3 Levo and ride it on a paved road in driving rain for 30 minutes, will there then already be water in the bottom of the crank housing next to the bearing ready to start corrosion from day one or have they done something to improve the design to prevent water getting in?

I for one still want to buy a Levo but will ask the hard questions before doing so.

 

[RebornRider]

I was the Lead Systems Engineer / Technical Lead for medical device products for more than 20 years. I've endured countless team meetings where a defect found in testing was brushed off. "How many sales will we lose if we don't fix the defect?" "We've gotta get this thing on the market NOW! We'll fix the defect in the next revision." This is not a Dilbert comic. This happened. I was there.

One of the medical devices was launched with more than 600 unfixed defects in the database. None were a safety hazard, but IMO they all were going to make us look stupid. I hated it.

As has been mentioned above, Brose is an automotive OEM. They sell millions of windshield wiper motors per year. Spesh emtb sales are a drop in the ocean.

 

[Bearing Man]

The process and requirements/specification is key to any product design - even those designed to lowest cost.
In this case I would not fault anyone at Brose for broken sprags because the unexpected use case( pedal strike) likely exceeded the original design spec. No foul - just change the spec & improve the design in the next iteration.
But for water intrusion, I would argue that commuters in China probably ride their bike in rain MORE than we do because we can cancel our ride if it is raining but they have to get to work no matter how bad the weather. The engineer who designed the case did so to a budget for sure but there should have been a specification too. Did that spec mention water or not? Those who wrote the spec without proper water mitigation or signed off on a design change to ignore it are the ones at fault and that impacts their bottom line too.

Back on topic, here is my key question:
If I buy a brand new V3 Levo and ride it on a paved road in driving rain for 30 minutes, will there then already be water in the bottom of the crank housing next to the bearing ready to start corrosion from day one or have they done something to improve the design to prevent water getting in?

I for one still want to buy a Levo but will ask the hard questions before doing so.

Most eBike mid drive motors are manufactured to an ingress rating to IP54, and are quite happy being ridden about in the rain. Rain or general puddles are not the problem. This is why road/commuter bikes rarely fail. You would be perfectly fine, riding your V3 Levo through the rain every day if you wanted to.

What these motors don't like is riding through flooded ruts for mile after mile, or being hosed down with someone trying to brush and hose all the mud and dirt from behind the chainring after every ride, or being put on a car rack behind a vehicle driven on wet roads for miles, ridden through rivers, streams and floods that come over the cranks etc. etc.

Your Levo may let you down, but so may your Trek, or your Canondale, or your Giant! Look at my signature, I own 2 Levo's, I ride to work and back off road every day, rain or shine, hot or cold. The picture below is of my poor 2018 Levo as it sits in the workshop today, waiting to take me home again and still on its original perfectly good motor.

Again, nothing of what I am saying is standing up for the manufacturers, but if you're someone who must ride through knee deep water or pressure wash your bike after every ride, then maybe an ebike is not the way to go just yet. I am sure in 5 years time all motors will be IP56 and everyone will be happy.

 

[brigcampbell]

Most eBike mid drive motors are manufactured to an ingress rating to IP54,

Does Brose claim IP54?

I think it was you that posted a video of the motor gasket on the outside of the bolts holes. That can't be IP54 can it?

TIA

 

[Bearing Man]

Does Brose claim IP54?

I think it was you that posted a video of the motor gasket on the outside of the bolts holes. That can't be IP54 can it?

TIA

No, Brose actually claim IP56 (IP56 = Protected from limited dust ingress. Protected from high pressure water jets from any direction)

 

[Alexbn921]

My Kenevo Brose motor has 3100 miles on it and while it has always been loud, still runs like new.
Never see's water and only a couple muddy rides where I had to wash it.

 

[davosaurusrex]

So I thought I'd ask Specialized direct whether the motors have a rolling warranty, got the below info

So not a rolling warranty and they also confirmed the assisted replacement date is from purchase date of the bike rather than any warranty replacement but pretty transparent, unlike Madison/Shimano

 

[davosaurusrex]

Based on the above if I did buy a Levo my aim would be to finish the 2 years with a motor in as good a condition as possible whether it had been replaced or not and then I'd send it off to Bearing Man for the sealing upgrade service.

Would likely do the same with a Bosch as their warranty is also 2 years and not rolling. @Bearing Man do you do a similar service for the Bosch Gen 4?

 

[Bearing Man]

Based on the above if I did buy a Levo my aim would be to finish the 2 years with a motor in as good a condition as possible whether it had been replaced or not and then I'd send it off to Bearing Man for the sealing upgrade service.

Would likely do the same with a Bosch as their warranty is also 2 years and not rolling. @Bearing Man do you do a similar service for the Bosch Gen 4?

Not a bad shout because you will get another years warranty with us! Unfortunately, there is currently no upgrade available for the Bosch Gen 4.

 

[davosaurusrex]

Is that because the Bosch doesn't really need it? Or not so much at least

Good news on your Specialized warranty!

 

[Bearing Man]

There are a couple of things we could do for the Bosch, especially with regards the sealing. We're still working in this one.

And, we warranty any motor we work on, regardless of make. (We don't cover water ingress though!).

 

[billium]

Most eBike mid drive motors are manufactured to an ingress rating to IP54, and are quite happy being ridden about in the rain. Rain or general puddles are not the problem. This is why road/commuter bikes rarely fail. You would be perfectly fine, riding your V3 Levo through the rain every day if you wanted to.

If I do buy a V3, would it make sense to immediately pack the crankshaft with waterprooof grease( from the outside so as not to jeapordise warranty) and add the washer you use?

As the expert here, what would you do to the motor if you got a brand new Levo tomorrow?

 

[Bearing Man]

Unfortunately, you can't get the grease where it needs to be, trust me, we've tried. Even syringes didn't help. The other problem is, we don't currently sell the seals separate! We are working on a economically viable way of doing this though, so should not be long.

If it were my bike, I would have it upgraded. But if my budget didn't stretch to that, then the two X-ring seals do work exceptionally well. And they will be available soon.

 

[Loe Rider]

Little known fact: I would just check your Marine grease as most are Aluminium based, this can react with the standard grease found on your normal bearings and turn it back to liquid. This is why a lot of boat trailer bearings fail when people take the grease cap off and pack it with marine grease, then all the actual grease runs out of the bearings and they fail!

Bugger. Every day's a school day it seems. I think its silicone based but not checked - unscientifically it's whatever Mr Besos sent me after using the crappy search bar. Ah well, I'm only applying outside the seals so if it gets inside then water would too and it'd be dead anyway.

Unfortunately I will never be sure which is my last warranty motor so my cunning plan is to ride for as long as i can with warranty motors and when i finally have to buy one, i will send it unused straight to you Bearing Man. I know you do an amazing improvement over stock because a mate (Kelvin) had his done before I even bought my bike i think, so it must be 3 years and still going. I would be interested in being able to buy a new and upgraded motor direct in due course if you do that?

 

[Christox]

Hey there,

after a few fixed Drive S Alu i now have the first real problems with my S-Mag in a Levo22.

Background:
My first S-Mag in a Kenevo gen2 had a motor replacement due to a mechanical grinding sound when motor supported. Never opened it.

Now the Levo22 S-mag failed with belt damage after 1800km. But hundreds of km before i also had that "tock tock..." mechanical sound when motor support was on i also had i. the Kenevo S-mag. The motor also got louder.

Ok, i got a replacement, but inspection showed that the big bearing of the beltwheel came out of the seat approx 2mm. And the wheel was grinded/polished due to housing contact. Attached is a pic in comparison to a spare wheel of a Drive S Alu without grinding marks.

So 2 S-mags with same problems i never had in Alloy Drive S

I like the motor but i want to fix it when i'm now out of warranty with the actual motor.

Dear community and @Bearing Man : May i ask you about your experiences ? Is the wheelbearing in S-Mags normally glued in with loctite ? Because in the Drive S Alu it is pressed by punch marks near the seat. What glue could i use in the new motor to prevent from an axially drifting assembly, and also being able to disassemble the unit for service ?

With best regards,

Chris

 

[Bearing Man]

Hey there,

after a few fixed Drive S Alu i now have the first real problems with my S-Mag in a Levo22.

Background:
My first S-Mag in a Kenevo gen2 had a motor replacement due to a mechanical grinding sound when motor supported. Never opened it.

Now the Levo22 S-mag failed with belt damage after 1800km. But hundreds of km before i also had that "tock tock..." mechanical sound when motor support was on i also had i. the Kenevo S-mag. The motor also got louder.

Ok, i got a replacement, but inspection showed that the big bearing of the beltwheel came out of the seat approx 2mm. And the wheel was grinded/polished due to housing contact. Attached is a pic in comparison to a spare wheel of a Drive S Alu without grinding marks.

So 2 S-mags with same problems i never had in Alloy Drive S

I like the motor but i want to fix it when i'm now out of warranty with the actual motor.

Dear community and @Bearing Man : May i ask you about your experiences ? Is the wheelbearing in S-Mags normally glued in with loctite ? Because in the Drive S Alu it is pressed by punch marks near the seat. What glue could i use in the new motor to prevent from an axially drifting assembly, and also being able to disassemble the unit for service ?

With best regards,

Chris

View attachment 106696 View attachment 106697 View attachment 106698

The bearing lifting from the motor case is an issue we see from time to time. The bearing is glued into the housing because the Magnesium Alloy is too brittle to be used for crimping the bearing in, as done on the Aluminium motors. Brose have used two different "glues" to solve this issue. The first was Loctite 641 bearing a medium strength bearing fit or retainer. Later, Brose used what we believe to be Loctite 609 a high strength "glue" that made extracting the bearing a rather violent affair! It seems they have now gone back to the 641.

This failure is usually caused by one of three things. A pedal strike, a crash involving a high impact to the left hand crankarm, or most commonly, removing the chainring spider without using the special tool! (Take a look at the attached PDF. to see why this is important.

The belt will then usually snap because the two drive belt pulleys are running out of line.

We have used Loctite 641 for the last 4 years with no problem, but we use a solvent to always ensure both surfaces are absolutely clean and grease free.

 

[Kingerz]

I have a rare 2018 Kenevo that hasn't broken. The battery is really weak now though and holds maybe a 60% charge, although the app says it is 100% healthy which is a pure lie. It's still useful for friends.
I ride in 3/5 mode almost always and it's often dry riding.
I think everyone I know has left Specialized though. Too expensive and fragile and the stories of 'it's my third motor' are normal. They still have the image of being the goat to newbies though.
Did the warranty go down from 4 years to 2?

 

[Zimmerframe]

I have a rare 2018 Kenevo that hasn't broken. The battery is really weak now though and holds maybe a 60% charge, although the app says it is 100% healthy which is a pure lie. It's still useful for friends.
I ride in 3/5 mode almost always and it's often dry riding.
I think everyone I know has left Specialized though. Too expensive and fragile and the stories of 'it's my third motor' are normal. They still have the image of being the goat to newbies though.
Did the warranty go down from 4 years to 2?

The standard warranty is 2 years. It was extended to 4 years for certain levo's/kenevo's with the 2.1 motor when they identified a potential firmware issue which may have been causing unreliability ! Bikes sold with the updated firmware had the standard 2 year warranty.

You have the good old 1.3 motor. This is aluminium and not magnesium, so doesn't suffer from the problem mentioned by Bearing man above.

If you install Blevo, that should give you the true battery health.

Mine dropped to 90% within a few months of purchase but then stabilised. I never hot charge or cold charge and try to have the bike at room temperature before going for a ride. It does sometimes sit fully charged which is less than ideal, but it's still at about 88% health.

 

[Christox]

The bearing lifting from the motor case is an issue we see from time to time. The bearing is glued into the housing because the Magnesium Alloy is too brittle to be used for crimping the bearing in, as done on the Aluminium motors. Brose have used two different "glues" to solve this issue. The first was Loctite 641 bearing a medium strength bearing fit or retainer. Later, Brose used what we believe to be Loctite 609 a high strength "glue" that made extracting the bearing a rather violent affair! It seems they have now gone back to the 641.

This failure is usually caused by one of three things. A pedal strike, a crash involving a high impact to the left hand crankarm, or most commonly, removing the chainring spider without using the special tool! (Take a look at the attached PDF. to see why this is important.

The belt will then usually snap because the two drive belt pulleys are running out of line.

We have used Loctite 641 for the last 4 years with no problem, but we use a solvent to always ensure both surfaces are absolutely clean and grease free.

Thanks, Bearing Man !

I will try with your favorite loctite.

And for the Chainring pulling i always used a selfmade "brose hut" sothat the Puller only pushes onto the outer shaft und forces are not having a walk through the complete drive assembly

Best regards,

Chris

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

interesting

 

[billium]

interesting

I see at about 8:30 he shows how they add a seal ahead of the needle roller to keep the water out .

 

[Zimmerframe]

Looks like Brose Just churned out their two millionth motor !

"David Kaminski, Head of Sales for the micromobility product area at Brose: "After we were founded in 2014, it took us almost seven years to produce the first million e-bike drives. We have now reached the second just two years later. This shows how much the industry's trust in our products has increased. There are also two other reasons. On the one hand, the trend towards e-bikes among the population continues unabated. On the other hand, we offer a natural driving experience with our products and thus meet the requirements of our customers"

By my calculations, with replacements, that must mean at least 50,000 bikes have Brose motors !

 

[Doomanic]

Two millionth new motor or warranty replacement?

 

[Bearing Man]

I see at about 8:30 he shows how they add a seal ahead of the needle roller to keep the water out .

Fitting a seal is now standard practice for us and all our partners worldwide, including Michael in the US who made this lovely video. We always add this and several other layers of sealing when repairing these motors.
The picture below shows a cutaway of the crank assembly where you can see our X-ring outer seal a layer of waterproof grease, then our rotary shaft seal, followed by the internally sealed needle roller bearing.

You can also see at the bottom, the gap that the grease fills and what happens to a motor without this sealing.