Anyone use Anti-Pedal Kickback Tech on EMTB?

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slickrock said:
In the last year there has been a surge in use of anti-pedal kickback components to provide significant improvements in suspension feel, travel utilization, chain slap, and overall pedal kickback reduction on MTBs (mostly downhill bikes, but trending into enduro), especially on bikes that don't use idler gears or have high anti-squat suspension designs. I'm primarily referring to:
  • OChain chainrings (or similar) that use elastomers to provide a degree of disengagement float
  • and the E13 Sidekick or Tairin S1/Shogun hubs that provide a consistent drive disengagement deadband. The prior got Pinkbike Innovation of the Year award (over even the DGI motor if you can believe) and their performance claims are borderline transformative.
While I have not used these components, I'd be curious if any of you have, either MTB or EMTB , and to get your opinions on this tech. I get a sense that perhaps this tech may or may not work EMTB, since with various motors have internal freewheel designs and some may prevent reverse rotation or have motor torque characteristics that may take up chain slack or dynamically respond to pedal kickback.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure how much pedal kickback is really a concern for EMTBs as it seems it doesn't come up in the forum. Perhaps the sprung to unsprung weight ratio is high enough that this attenuates the feel compared to MTBs, but then again there are a number of idler gear EMTBS out there, including the Slash+ (Pinkbike favorite) and soon the Forbidden models sporting idlers and DGI's. That said, it would be good to compare and contrast some setups. What do you think Rob?
Click to expand...
Is this asking if any of us are using the "run over" function that presumes power after you stop pedaling? b/c with the pedals leveled after stopping pedaling with the run over function active it will rotate or "kick" the pedals up on you. And no i dont use it but have read about people who do when jumping in order to keep the motor from stopping when approaching jumps. I think it would be handy in situations where you need to "ratchet" the pedals like in rocks
 
BAh30 said:
Is this asking if any of us are using the "run over" function that presumes power after you stop pedaling? b/c with the pedals leveled after stopping pedaling with the run over function active it will rotate or "kick" the pedals up on you. And no i dont use it but have read about people who do when jumping in order to keep the motor from stopping when approaching jumps. I think it would be handy in situations where you need to "ratchet" the pedals like in rocks
Click to expand...
Do take a look at the full thread as my thinking on this has evolved, and also from others posting on this thread. I don't think motor overrun comes into the picture here. Basically,
  1. Ebike motors have an additional internal freewheel and can seemingly add more engagement float, depending on the motor.
  2. Ebike motors have a torque sensors, which seemingly, could engage the motor quickly take up slack the moment you apply pedal pressure, which should help with intermittent and uphill pedaling slop when using pedal kickback tech like an Ochain or E13 (i.e. the main downside of using this tech).
  3. Some folks aren't convinced item 2 is effectively happening, though YMMV depending on motor and anit-kickpack tech; basically that there still is some float in the system but the intervening motor seems to help reduce some of it.
 
Lightme said:
Just put a sidekick hub on my Amflow. Overall I’m impressed, it does what it says on the tin.
Click to expand...
I've been using an ochain since prior to the sidekick release so that's where my brain went first but I got a sidekick for my next DJI bike. If the sidekick is reliable it's definitely a better option than ochain. More degrees of float, interchangeable with any bike (with like hub spacing) and easier to set up/adjust.
 
slickrock said:
I'm not aware of an Ochain spider, which is motor-specific, for DJI. But using a SideKick or Tairin S1/Shogun is fair game on a DJI bike.
Click to expand...
I´m using the Tairi S1 on my Avinox for a few weeks. about 1000km now. Unfortunately the decoupling doesn´t really work. At least on my bike/motors (now on the second). One still profit from the 15° engagement, but because the chainring isn´t moving backwards easily on the avinox, which is necessary for decoupling and completely silencing the freehub, you loosing this great feature. i tried difference versions of internals. Unfortunately they all work the same.

The guys from Tairin Germany (2RC) are very kind, reliable and super helpful.

I will give the Sidekick a try next and put the Tairin in the other bike. It´s working as intended and with all features in combination with the ride 60.
 
G.M. said:
I´m using the Tairi S1 on my Avinox for a few weeks. about 1000km now. Unfortunately the decoupling doesn´t really work. At least on my bike/motors (now on the second). One still profit from the 15° engagement, but because the chainring isn´t moving backwards easily on the avinox, which is necessary for decoupling and completely silencing the freehub, you loosing this great feature. i tried difference versions of internals. Unfortunately they all work the same.

The guys from Tairin Germany (2RC) are very kind, reliable and super helpful.

I will give the Sidekick a try next and put the Tairin in the other bike. It´s working as intended and with all features in combination with the ride 60.
Click to expand...
A few things:
  1. This is the second report I've just read that pedal kickback tech not working out on the DJI (the other can be found on this Crestline DJI Thread). We do need to get to the bottom of this and if anyone is privy to the deep internals of how the DJI internal freewheel is implemented (or if it even has one at all), hopefully they can provide some insight.
  2. That said, I'm still a bit thrown off by this. You say the DJI doesn't move backwards easily - but isn't that the same effect of just having pedals and cranks on a non-motorized MTB? After all these products were designed for MTBs, where the float is in the hub and that's taken up as the suspension articulates. A motor could introduce additional float, which could help a bit. But the "claimed advantage" is that an ebike motor can leverage it's torque sensor to quickly take up slack when applying pedal force to compensate the downside of using pedal kickback tech, which would normally introduce take-up unresponsiveness when switch-pedalling to uphills. Question is, is the DJI doing at least that?
  3. If the Tairin didn't work out for you, it's doubtful the Sidekick will make any difference.
  4. Question: Did the Tairin at least quell the sound of the DJI motor "clunking" as some folks have reported about the motor?
  5. Most folks have been talking about the Sidekick and not the Tairin. I've been intrigued by the Tairin and would chose that hub over Sidekick because of it's silent performance, but for my current Bosch bike I would probably go the Ochain route. As of today, there is no Ochain spider available for DJI, but based on this, it probably won't matter based on your experience with the hub.
 
whitymon said:
Honestly maybe not all people can feel everything.
From frame, handlebar material to such things here.

Depends on the rider style, speed and bike.

For example I do not feel kickback on a high pivot bike.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that’s the one of the benefits of high pivot bikes with idler that it reduces pedal kick back, no wonder if you cannot feel it 😀 I don’t even feel the pedal kick back with VPP suspension/ 4-bar suspension, even at bike parks/rougher stuff, too concentrated to trying to stay off the brakes 😀
 
slickrock said:
A few things:
  1. This is the second report I've just read that pedal kickback tech not working out on the DJI (the other can be found on this Crestline DJI Thread). We do need to get to the bottom of this and if anyone is privy to the deep internals of how the DJI internal freewheel is implemented (or if it even has one at all), hopefully they can provide some insight.
  2. That said, I'm still a bit thrown off by this. You say the DJI doesn't move backwards easily - but isn't that the same effect of just having pedals and cranks on a non-motorized MTB? After all these products were designed for MTBs, where the float is in the hub and that's taken up as the suspension articulates. A motor could introduce additional float, which could help a bit. But the "claimed advantage" is that an ebike motor can leverage it's torque sensor to quickly take up slack when applying pedal force to compensate the downside of using pedal kickback tech, which would normally introduce take-up unresponsiveness when switch-pedalling to uphills. Question is, is the DJI doing at least that?
  3. If the Tairin didn't work out for you, it's doubtful the Sidekick will make any difference.
  4. Question: Did the Tairin at least quell the sound of the DJI motor "clunking" as some folks have reported about the motor?
  5. Most folks have been talking about the Sidekick and not the Tairin. I've been intrigued by the Tairin and would chose that hub over Sidekick because of it's silent performance, but for my current Bosch bike I would probably go the Ochain route. As of today, there is no Ochain spider available for DJI, but based on this, it probably won't matter based on your experience with the hub.
Click to expand...
Hi slickrock,
first off, there is a noticeable difference with the tairin in comparison to a "normal" hub. I tried the tairin back to back with a industry nine 1-1 so two hubs on both ends of engagements. motor noise/rattle an pedalkickback is noticeably increased with the i9. But because of how the freewheel in the avinox works the tairin doesn´t decouple completely most of the time. At least in my case. It needs a moment where there is some slack in the chain to let the cassette spin back a tiny bit. that is normaly happen if you´re freecoasting standing on your bike. The avinox motor needs much more force to spin back compared to most other systems and on top of that the engagement of the cranks are allmost instant. i think that is the reason the tairin can not work to its full potential.
The reason i will use the sidekick on my dji bike is that it has 18° (tairin 15°) and a completely different way how it works. the sidekick will not decouple completely anyway.
Sidekick hubs arrived today. Waiting for rims and spokes to build the wheels and can report back after a few rides.
 
slickrock said:
A few things:
  1. This is the second report I've just read that pedal kickback tech not working out on the DJI (the other can be found on this Crestline DJI Thread). We do need to get to the bottom of this and if anyone is privy to the deep internals of how the DJI internal freewheel is implemented (or if it even has one at all), hopefully they can provide some insight.
  2. That said, I'm still a bit thrown off by this. You say the DJI doesn't move backwards easily - but isn't that the same effect of just having pedals and cranks on a non-motorized MTB? After all these products were designed for MTBs, where the float is in the hub and that's taken up as the suspension articulates. A motor could introduce additional float, which could help a bit. But the "claimed advantage" is that an ebike motor can leverage it's torque sensor to quickly take up slack when applying pedal force to compensate the downside of using pedal kickback tech, which would normally introduce take-up unresponsiveness when switch-pedalling to uphills. Question is, is the DJI doing at least that?
  3. If the Tairin didn't work out for you, it's doubtful the Sidekick will make any difference.
  4. Question: Did the Tairin at least quell the sound of the DJI motor "clunking" as some folks have reported about the motor?
  5. Most folks have been talking about the Sidekick and not the Tairin. I've been intrigued by the Tairin and would chose that hub over Sidekick because of it's silent performance, but for my current Bosch bike I would probably go the Ochain route. As of today, there is no Ochain spider available for DJI, but based on this, it probably won't matter based on your experience with the hub.
Click to expand...

I have an e13 Sidekick on my Amflow, it definitely works very well.
Just put one on my Yeti 160e, they’re really good! Advantage over o-chain and similar is that it’s easier to move from bike to bike.
 
Lightme said:
I have an e13 Sidekick on my Amflow, it definitely works very well.
Just put one on my Yeti 160e, they’re really good! Advantage over o-chain and similar is that it’s easier to move from bike to bike.
Click to expand...

When you say 'works very well' I assume you mean that the rear suspension moves more freely?

Did you experience any reduction in noise from your DJI going to the Sidekick?

I wonder if your particular example of a DJI, has a looser freewheel than maybe G.M. has?

THX
 
G.M. said:
Hi slickrock,
first off, there is a noticeable difference with the tairin in comparison to a "normal" hub. I tried the tairin back to back with a industry nine 1-1 so two hubs on both ends of engagements. motor noise/rattle an pedalkickback is noticeably increased with the i9. But because of how the freewheel in the avinox works the tairin doesn´t decouple completely most of the time. At least in my case. It needs a moment where there is some slack in the chain to let the cassette spin back a tiny bit. that is normaly happen if you´re freecoasting standing on your bike. The avinox motor needs much more force to spin back compared to most other systems and on top of that the engagement of the cranks are allmost instant. i think that is the reason the tairin can not work to its full potential.
The reason i will use the sidekick on my dji bike is that it has 18° (tairin 15°) and a completely different way how it works. the sidekick will not decouple completely anyway.
Sidekick hubs arrived today. Waiting for rims and spokes to build the wheels and can report back after a few rides.
Click to expand...
Ahh, this is probably it, and as such, please do ignore most of the points from my last post. Here is a second take:
  1. It's not the DJI that's the culprit, but more the freewheel engagement incompatibility of the Tairin hub with the DJI.
  2. The Tairin has an interesting silent engagement mechanism that doesn't use pawls, but it looks like it needs a bit of slack to reset, and this is something the DJI doesn't want to give while not pedaling. If no reset, then no float, and if no float, then no kickback reduction. Makes sense now.
  3. The E13 will likely be much better at this as it was specifically designed for this objective with pawls, whereas the Tairin approach is more of a side effect of it's silent hub design.
  4. It probably didn't quell the motor sound because the Tairin wasn't providing the float as intended.
  5. All the more reason to hope for a Ochain spider for DJI because the only tech that may work at the moment is the E13.
 
slickrock said:
Ahh, this is probably it, and as such, please do ignore most of the points from my last post. Here is a second take:
  1. It's not the DJI that's the culprit, but more the freewheel engagement incompatibility of the Tairin hub with the DJI.
  2. The Tairin has an interesting silent engagement mechanism that doesn't use pawls, but it looks like it needs a bit of slack to reset, and this is something the DJI doesn't want to give while not pedaling. If no reset, then no float, and if no float, then no kickback reduction. Makes sense now.
  3. The E13 will likely be much better at this as it was specifically designed for this objective with pawls, whereas the Tairin approach is more of a side effect of it's silent hub design.
  4. It probably didn't quell the motor sound because the Tairin wasn't providing the float as intended.
  5. All the more reason to hope for a Ochain spider for DJI because the only tech that may work at the moment is the E13.
Click to expand...
These are exactly the reasons why I decided against the Tairin S1; you summed it up perfectly here. I had already ordered the S1, but then I read about these effects on e-bike motors and contacted Jose (Tairin's developer) via email. He confirmed exactly that: that the full decoupling on the S1 won't work reliably on most e-bike motors (not just DJI-specific ones).
So, I ended up ordering an E13 sidekick hub for my Levo 4 (Specialized 3.1 motor), report will follow in next posting here.
 
My Experience with the e*thirteen Sidekick Hub

After reading several reports – including some in this thread – about using an O-Chain or an e*thirteen Sidekick hub to reduce rattling noises from e-bike motors, I decided to try it on my Levo 4 with the Specialized 3.1 motor. This motor also tends to rattle when the chain is pulled slightly backwards, for example due to pedal kickback or when the chain flutters on rough terrain. It’s less pronounced than on EP8 or Bosch Gen4 motors, but it’s still noticeable – especially if you are used to a very quiet bike or are sensitive to noise.
My primary motivation was therefore to reduce motor rattle rather than to eliminate pedal kickback, although that side effect is welcome.

I built up a wheel with the Sidekick hub and replaced the stock DT 350. On the drive side, slightly shorter spokes were required. Wheel building and setup went as smoothly as with any other hub.
IMG_2330.jpeg


I started with the 18° engagement setting. Even with a simple test – dropping the rear of the bike to the ground – it was immediately quieter because the hub eliminated the chain tension that normally causes the freewheel mechanism in the motor to engage.

Out on the trail, I got used to the 18° setting within a few minutes; after about five minutes I didn’t notice the difference in engagement at all.
The rattling noises were clearly reduced: on smooth and moderately rough sections they disappeared completely. On very rough terrain there was still some noise from the chain slapping around. That chain slap occasionally pulled the chainring backwards and caused some residual freewheel rattle from the motor.
I also noticed that, due to the Sidekick hub reducing pedal kickback, the chain now moves around more freely on rough trails – which makes sense.

While the Sidekick hub was a noticeable improvement, the ride was still not quiet enough for my taste.
As an additional step, I installed an STFU chain damping system to reduce chain slap – a much cheaper upgrade, luckily.
IMG_2650.jpeg

IMG_2651.jpeg

With both modifications, the overall noise level is now where I wanted it: my new Levo 4 is now almost as quiet as my previous bike, which is exactly what I was aiming for, although there is of course a weight disadvantage with the hub and the chain guide looks relatively unsightly.
I may experiment with different Sidekick settings later, but for now this combination works really well for me.
 
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An on-point article from Pinkbike on pedal kickback tech: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/group-test-the-top-5-chain-devices-tested-and-ranked.html

Although the article does not touch on EMTB-specific performance, it does imply a lot about the kickback vs. chain-whip debate. What's most interesting about this review is that the recommended STFU device does absolutely nothing to minimize pedal kickback, yet provides the lion's share of pedal feeling improvement by containing chain-whip. This goes to show that a lot of the discussion about pedal kickback rotational dynamics and chain growth pull on pedals is really the smaller factor compared to chain-whip effects from a heavy, long, slack chain (because you're on the smallest cogs when descending) flailing around on downhills. This is also probably why gearbox drivetrains with light-weight, shorter, more taught belt-drives feel so unencumbered and responsive on downhills (i.e. not just because of unsprung mass reduction).
 
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I had been eyeing off the Tairin silent hub for a new Avinox powered build, super disappointed to read it doesn't seem to work as intended when combined with this motor.
 
Hey team,
So I know there are reports of the Tairin shogun hub not working properly with the DJI motor, but Tairin do have another hub with 15 degrees of play, silent, using a different design then the shogun.
www.tairinwheels.com

Tairin S1 Rear Hub | tairinwheels

**the S1 returns for the 2024 season!** This is the new Tairin hub, with the modular silent S1 drive configuration. Featuring face gears that disengage when freewheeling for a complete silent ride. The S1 features our Floating Engagement Index, designed to ease the effects of pedal kickback...
www.tairinwheels.com www.tairinwheels.com

Any ideas or real world tests if this will work with DJI?

Thanks,
Ben
 
Hey, many thanks! I missed that part about the S1 also potentially not working, i thought the problem was just with the Shogun.
 
If you think about it, the motor manufacturers really should build the anti-pedal kickback tech right into the motor itself to remove the need for these hubs and HP bikes entirely.
 
Bumping this thread for a question. I have a current gen SC Bullit and I'm considering an Ochain. I have an ochain on my gen 6 nomad and it's sublime.

At any rate, Ochain seems to suggest that they only have 1 chainline/offset for the bosch systems, which seems to be 52mm. The product detail page, has the following statement:
  • Ochain | And Bosch is compatible with Bosch gen5 BDU38. S pacers are included in the box to match the original chainline just for the Ochain | And Bosch
My assumption is that they are achieving the delta between the 52mm and 55mm chainlines, through a spacer behind the spider. Does anyone have any confirmation on that?

Edit: I think I found the answer to my question within the user manual, which is difficult to find. Dang italian engineers and their organizational habits. Ochain | SRAM
 
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ebsocalmtb said:
Bumping this thread for a question. I have a current gen SC Bullit and I'm considering an Ochain. I have an ochain on my gen 6 nomad and it's sublime.

At any rate, Ochain seems to suggest that they only have 1 chainline/offset for the bosch systems, which seems to be 52mm. The product detail page, has the following statement:
  • Ochain | And Bosch is compatible with Bosch gen5 BDU38. S pacers are included in the box to match the original chainline just for the Ochain | And Bosch
My assumption is that they are achieving the delta between the 52mm and 55mm chainlines, through a spacer behind the spider. Does anyone have any confirmation on that?

Edit: I think I found the answer to my question within the user manual, which is difficult to find. Dang italian engineers and their organizational habits. Ochain | SRAM
Click to expand...
FWIW the ochain website changed when SRAM took over but there was/is a Bosch 55mm chainline specific E model out there. Maybe now they cut down on a SKU and just use a spacer to get to 55mm?

thelostco.com

Ochain E Active Bosch 55mm Chainline Black

Allows up to 12 degrees of rotation at the spider, reducing the effects of chain growth that reach the riders feet. This results in the feel of riding chainless while retaining pedal-ability!Reduces the negative effects of chain growth on suspension performance.Requires a 104 BCD chainring. Fits...
thelostco.com thelostco.com
 
2WHLFUN said:
Is there an update on the use of this hub?
Click to expand...
Yes, it works as advertised. Except it doesn’t take all the motor backlash rattle away. It does however reduce the rattle.
I have now swapped this hub/rim set over to my new Crestline RS181 DJI powered emtb.
The E13 SideKick works great for reducing VPP suspension platform peddle kickback.
 
So if the e13 works, does that stand to reason the DtSwiss Deg DF will work too? Seem to have a similar concept.
 
Hello everyone,

My Bosch Gen 4 motor is making a clicking noise/rattle
I don't do downhill running, but rather sporty hiking/trail

What system would be best to reduce or eliminate the noise? Ochain or E13 hubs?

Thanks from France
 
hdd120 said:
Hello everyone,

My Bosch Gen 4 motor is making a clicking noise/rattle
I don't do downhill running, but rather sporty hiking/trail

What system would be best to reduce or eliminate the noise? Ochain or E13 hubs?

Thanks from France
Click to expand...
You may want to isolate the noise/rattle as best as you can. Otherwise chasing the creak could be costly or unnecessary.

If you’re able to, post a vid so that others may help. (Moving or suspended). You may be surprised at the source of the noise.
 
Stihldog said:
You may want to isolate the noise/rattle as best as you can. Otherwise chasing the creak could be costly or unnecessary.

If you’re able to, post a vid so that others may help. (Moving or suspended). You may be surprised at the source of the noise.
Click to expand...
That's definitely the noise of the metal gears inside the motor. Or maybe I should put some insulation inside the frame, around the motor.
 
hdd120 said:
That's definitely the noise of the metal gears inside the motor. Or maybe I should put some insulation inside the frame, around the motor.
Click to expand...
Suspend the bike and remove the chain. Carefully feel and listen for anything weird as you turn the motor. (Powered and no power)If a bearing has failed, from water ingress, you may be able to feel and hear that. Some of the gearing inside the motor is nylon. A serious grinding noise may be heard if it is the gearing.

If it is the motor, a rebuild may be necessary (new grease , bearings etc)…but a new or replacement motor can be expensive.
 
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