Velduro Rogue 170/165 mullet Enduro with DJI
- Thread starter Nomadic Dad
- Start date
slickrock
Well-known member
I welcome any long-travel DJI bike with high-pivot and Horst Link. Dare I say it looks a bit sexier than the E-Druid.
And yes it is a Horst Link bike, or at least certainly sports one. Looking at the I-Track patent, there is nothing about the patent that necessitates its use. The patent really hinges (no pun intended) around locating the pulley on the chainstay as they suggest I-Track can be used on multiple kinds or rear suspension designs (single-pivot, slider and slider, 4-bar, 6-bar, etc.).
The bake-off here will be between this bike and the Forbidden, as pulley location will be the main design difference between them; geometry and other aesthetics aside.
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Hey man, didn't mean to derail this thread or attack you in any way. The suspension layouts do indeed look very similar in regards to high pivot, idler and rocker link, but still the fact remains that Trek's and Velduro's designs are different. You can see by yourself that Trek doesn't use a chainstay pivot, they have a concentric pivot around rear axle that they call ABP (Active Braking Pivot) and use on vast majority of their full suspension bikes. And have been for ages. Orbea has a similar design, I am familiar with it from my last Rallon.
Velduro definitely uses a 4-bar design with a pivot on chainstay. I don't know if the text you posted is meant for Velduro bike, and why or who claims it doesn't have a chainstay pivot. When all we need to do is look at the picture...
Anyway, sorry again for derailing this thread with my comment, this is pretty insignificant for the bike itself which I definitely find interesting!
Ridgydidge
Member
+1 for a frameset if it all pans out good, and takes the 800 battery
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
itrack and apb are 2 different things. itrack license is for the position of the idler only
apb means the rearmost pivot of the rear triangle is centrered on the wheel axle. It works really well I think.
But hopefully the iTrack (what a stupid name) will make it work just as well under braking too.
It would be great with a frame only option, but very often the frame only options are so close in price to the lowest end model with shitty component that it rarely pays off unless you intend to keep the bike forever, since it's makes a lot more sense to me to have high end components that I move from bike to bike, and then when I sell I put the original parts on the bike.
They will then look brand new and even if they aren't high end you can often sell it for a better price total then if you have to pay for them again on the new bike.
That's what always made most economical sense to me at least.
And as a bonus you get to ride the exact spec you want.
But hopefully the iTrack (what a stupid name) will make it work just as well under braking too.
It would be great with a frame only option, but very often the frame only options are so close in price to the lowest end model with shitty component that it rarely pays off unless you intend to keep the bike forever, since it's makes a lot more sense to me to have high end components that I move from bike to bike, and then when I sell I put the original parts on the bike.
They will then look brand new and even if they aren't high end you can often sell it for a better price total then if you have to pay for them again on the new bike.
That's what always made most economical sense to me at least.
And as a bonus you get to ride the exact spec you want.
Plummet
Flash Git
Word on the street is $8k nzd for frame.
James_MTB
Well-known member
- Jan 15, 2018
- 354
- 373
Think it was MBR who said they're not coming to the UK
Really? That's crap!
Saw the Rogue "in the flesh" while I was in Rotorua.
Jamie from NZ Mountain Biking was testing it and we rode past one another.
It's a nice looking (if unremarkable) bike - in fact I didn't realise what it was until I saw his video a few days later - I just recognised him as i watch a lot of his videos on YT.
It would be fair to say, it's quiet and it's pretty stealth-looking for a full power eMTB
Jamie from NZ Mountain Biking was testing it and we rode past one another.
It's a nice looking (if unremarkable) bike - in fact I didn't realise what it was until I saw his video a few days later - I just recognised him as i watch a lot of his videos on YT.
It would be fair to say, it's quiet and it's pretty stealth-looking for a full power eMTB
Plummet
Flash Git
Yeah that's a good way to explain it. It doesn't get me all sweaty with enthusiasm. I think its utilitarian, A good example where function and price point takes priority with less importance on design aesthetic.
Compare it to the Unno Mith, Its obvious that the Mith has more of a aesthetic brief over and above functionality.
If i was going to make a wild stab i would suggest the 3d model of the Velduro is done by the Chinese partner and the nz guys are paying an hourly rate for design. Therefore design time to tweak the aesthetic is limited to the design budget. If the Kiwi's were doing the initial model then they would likely invest more personal time tweaking the aesthetic to get it better looking.
Seeing the high pivot position from the Forbidden and Velduro... Forbidden idler appears to be positioned and accessing through the CS pivot and set back behind the BB.... Where as the Rogue's idler location set closer above the BB while placed on the CS and not placed through CS pivot.....
My question here would be, these idler and CS differences would provide to a individual ride characteristic, then adding to a shock tune to enhance this performance. Can anyone add on to further provide knowledge on how the two bikes with idler pivot positioning with respect of each design may feel upon the trail.....
Cheers!
My question here would be, these idler and CS differences would provide to a individual ride characteristic, then adding to a shock tune to enhance this performance. Can anyone add on to further provide knowledge on how the two bikes with idler pivot positioning with respect of each design may feel upon the trail.....
Cheers!
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slickrock
Well-known member
That's the $64K question and it's interesting to see them juxtaposed. The Forbidden "looks" the high-pivot part with the pivot noticeably higher and to the aft compared to the Rogue. The Rogue's lower high-pivot is actually fore of the BB with the idler near stacked on top of the BB pivot of the Rogue looks more like a traditional four-bar if you squint, even though they both have Horst Links. Perhaps that's why the bike doesn't call attention to itself as others have noted, though I'm a bit drawn to this bike for precisely that reason.
Here is the pivot location closeup of the Forbidden and looks to have the pivot right (about) on the axis of the chainstay pivot, where you would expect it for the chain to track with the pivot:
For the Rogue, the I-track pulley seems hardly further down on the chainstay until your realize just how forward the chainstay pivot is, that it's actually front of the seat tube! Also interesting is the pulley appears to be below the chainstay pivot as well. All of this could be some kind of I-Track sorcery, but I wouldn't be surprised if these bikes behave quite differently on test. Time to put these bikes through the Linkage Design software for a full blown analysis.
Plummet
Flash Git
I would expect the forbidden being a higher pivot to have more rear ward axle path and more chainstay growth compared to the velduro. Forbidden will have better square edge bump absorption, be more stable at speed, but will suck more to manual and wheelie and feel less playfull deeper into its travel.
Velcro being more mid pivot will feel more 4 bar link ish and will be a more playful bike to ride....
Was also leading up to with similar conclusion....
As with the Forbidden at 150mm bike of this stature to a high pivot rear wheel axel path takes out at best square edge hits without compromising its agility as its designed around 150mm travel, greater increase travel it become less of the bike its designed for offering optimum appeal.....
Rogue at 170mm mid high pivot has the availability to push deeper into its stoke when things get rowdy, giving to optimise its mid high pivot ability that with the CS pivot closer to BB the bike handling, some pop agility reminiscent to the 4 bar....
As with the Forbidden at 150mm bike of this stature to a high pivot rear wheel axel path takes out at best square edge hits without compromising its agility as its designed around 150mm travel, greater increase travel it become less of the bike its designed for offering optimum appeal.....
Rogue at 170mm mid high pivot has the availability to push deeper into its stoke when things get rowdy, giving to optimise its mid high pivot ability that with the CS pivot closer to BB the bike handling, some pop agility reminiscent to the 4 bar....
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
the first question is, which size of the velduro are we talking about here? with the same chainstay length over all models, they will all ride differently. the forbidden with its proportionally growing chainstay size will have the same ride in all sizes.
Nice!
Bit disappointed with the chainstay lengths, aside from that its looking good
A bit short (440mm) for the L & XL guys, but it does grow about 10mm at sag.
I'd like to see a bike that has chainstay length growth perfectly match the loss of front center as the fork compresses to maintain WB through the travel, for more consistency.
Plummet
Flash Git
Well lets compare.
The closest comparison Is size M for Velduro and S3 for Druid core.
I personally prefer the Velduro rear center/chainstay of 440 and reach combo of 466 for mid pivot is reasonable. 556 is way way way to long for a high pivot bike for that sized reach of the bike. Bearing in mind the chainstay grows another 20mm... Jeeesus. It would be stable but like piloting a bus.
I do agree as you get to the L and XL in velduro the chainstay rear/center is too short. Conversly its too long on the druid..... plus the druid taps out at size large with rediculously long chainstays of 470...
Velduro
E Druid Core
As a reference point on high pivots,
I have the following and i'm 180cm tall
High Pivot Deviate claymore 435 chainstay, 460 reach
Mid pivot Trek Session 445 chainstay, 465 reach
Plus I have a vpp in the Crestline
455 reach, 445 chain stay.
I also had a Voima
450 reach, 455 chain stay.
I don't want for a longer chainstay on a high than the claymore. At 435 its playful but still hard to manual and is plenty stable enough. The mid pivot 4 bar of the session is closest to the velduro spec (except with 200mm of travel). The 445 chainstay for me is as long as i want to go. Its a bit long for a mid pivot for general riding but bang on for high speed required for a dh rig.
I hated the 455 chainstay and heavy big battery of the voima. It made for an impossible to manual bike for me. It was stable but felt like a bus in the tighter stuff. Event though it had a shorter reach.
The Crestline at 445 rear non high pivot vpp feels optimal for me. Interestingly it is the easiest bike to manual with the 400wh battery installed.... Those high pivots are hard to manual bikes as the chainstay grows it fucks with the balance pont.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
nope. go follow brian cahal, watch his dreadnought v2 videos, where he tested the different chainstay lengths:
Forbidden Dreadnought Dropout Testing || 450 - 460 - 470 Looong Chainstays
i had the titan v3.2 as a mullet in the low setting, that thing was way more balanced with 470/452 reach/cs than my kenevo sl 2 with 485(483 with my 180mm flash)/447. i need to lean more forward instead of riding tall like on the titan. the druid core is nearly the same geo than the titan, with even more stack, which i also like (i have loooong legs)
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TCFlowClyde
Active member
Any info on the rear travel (hoping 170+) of the test bike?
Plummet
Flash Git
He corroborates my opinion. Long stays screw the ability to manual, make the bike less playful but more stable and predictable at high speed. That trail was a high speed non technical drift fest. He trys to manual the 470 stays and crashes out because he cant do it.
If you want high speed stability plough and drift and no manualling go long stays. That is opposite to my riding style. I have a very manual orientated style and a bike sucks for that when the chain stay is too long. I also have no problem at speed on the Deviate with a 435 stay, remember the high pivot grows 20 mm along its travel. So it gets more stable through its travel. When comparing non high pivot bikes you really need to consider the comparison of the high pivot bike suggest. So my Claymore sagged is close on to my Crestline of 445 and that is the ideal chainstay length for me.
I also ride a lot of tight natural tech. Long chainstays suck for tight natural tech. Thats one of the advantages of running a high pivot with a shorter stay. At lower speeds, when using less travel you have a shorter more playful bike to get through the tight tech easier. Make a high pivot long chain stay like the druids and you kill that tight tech riding ability and make it a high speed plough machine. No thank you. Druid can keep their overly long chainstays, they are not to my liking.
slickrock
Well-known member
For me, having zero experience on high-pivot pulley bikes and no skin in the game yet, your post opens up a question: Is there a travel sweet spot for true high-pivot bikes? Druids and Slash+s have got consistently good reviews but the Dreadnaught seems more a mixed bag. Could it be that once you get into 170mm territory, the design of true high-pivot bikes tend to over exaggerate things like rear center, suspension pack-ups on small bumps, and other active geometry swings; in effect really necessitating a clear and differing riding style and special attention to shock tune? When the Forbidden DJI was announced, nearly everyone was hoping for E-Dreadnaught but balked when they wound up with something more like a E-Druid+. Maybe Forbidden is alluding to this distinction or are they just going after the biggest market segment first?
Highland Wheels
Well-known member
I got my first high pivot bike fairly recently in the form of a Deviate Claymore, had never ridden one before and absolutely love it now, just need to get used to how to ride one but in glad i picked one up and have an Edruid on preorder as well
Plummet
Flash Git
If anything i think high pivot makes more sense with more travel. Particularly when its a pedal bike. This disadvantage of high pivot mtbs is they suck more to pedal. Thats not an problem with an E bike though.
One of the high pivot sales pitches is that they say that you can get away with less travel. I say bollocks to that. 150mm is still 150mm whether its high pivot or not.
There's no real difference in riding style required with high pivot other then its more difficult to manual and slightly easier to drop the nose on drops. I switch between my bikes no problem and ride them all the same with the slight exception of having to pull more for a manual/drop.
My advice as above is to not go too long in chainstays with high pivot, because the chainstay grows. Consider stays around 10mm shorter than you currently ride, then when the suspension is sagged your'l be back to normal.
Side note. I jump on my Crestline 180/180 vpp and really enjoy the shit out of that plaform design, Then i spend a few says on the Claymore (i have mind over stroked to 170mm rear) and also really enjoy that too. The lesson learnt for me is that VPP, 4 bar, High pivot, not matter what the plaform is if designed well they all are bloody awesome.
BrentD
Well-known member
Old mate Lance has a review out!
JP-NZ
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Just came to post this. Great to see a Kiwi brand. Very interested in seeing a NZ price for frame or even full bike.
They’re super active and responsive on socials if you ask them direct questions in their posts.
You’re likely to get a response from them if you ask.
I asked them about eu distribution but no answer. I guess that means they don't know.
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