Avinox M2s rattle

[richy]

PX Pro, only 200 miles, size XL (which may be relevant as they were distributed later than the M and L).

Zero rattle and very quiet compared to M1 and Bosch that I have ridden before.

Only minor noise is the Maguras, which i think is the rattling pads. Definitely not motor related as can be completely eliminated over roots for example by lightly engaging the brakes. The brakes did have me paranoid for a minute though after reading this thread.

 

[west]

PX Pro, only 200 miles, size XL (which may be relevant as they were distributed later than the M and L).

Zero rattle and very quiet compared to M1 and Bosch that I have ridden before.

Only minor noise is the Maguras, which i think is the rattling pads. Definitely not motor related as can be completely eliminated over roots for example by lightly engaging the brakes. The brakes did have me paranoid for a minute though after reading this thread.

Many reviewers commented on the rattle in the magura pads, so you would be spot on there.

 

[Adyzakydany]

PX Pro, only 200 miles, size XL (which may be relevant as they were distributed later than the M and L).

Zero rattle and very quiet compared to M1 and Bosch that I have ridden before.

Only minor noise is the Maguras, which i think is the rattling pads. Definitely not motor related as can be completely eliminated over roots for example by lightly engaging the brakes. The brakes did have me paranoid for a minute though after reading this thread.

Bosch 5 comparison?

 

[richy]

Bosch 5 comparison?

Comparison based on 2 different gen 4 rental bikes I have ridden, which were both very similar to each other and probably a year old at the time. I haven't ridden the gen 5 to compare

 

[Iacari]

Gen 5 is absolutely quiet.
At least up to 5500km.

 

[Adyzakydany]

Gen 5 is absolutely quiet.
At least up to 5500km.

mine's (Bosch G5) been dead silent, I meant how does the M2S compare.

 

[Highland Wheels]

Except Avinox themselves acknowledged it by correcting it on the M2... but okay. They also told Francis that they were shocked he had that inside info about the tight seals. Lol

Lol


Except in the real world on real rides it's not any less efficient than a gen 5 Bosch when set to the same power/torque and assist levels

But yeah

Lol.

 

[Iacari]

He cant it rattles.

 

[Iacari]

I am not sure if is the bike or himself that rattles....

 

[Suns_PSD]

Lol


Except in the real world on real rides it's not any less efficient than a gen 5 Bosch when set to the same power/torque and assist levels

But yeah

Lol.

So then did Avinox lie about improving drag by some % with the M2? Or is the M2s now just more efficient than the other motors, when you guys all claim that the motors are 'all about the same'. You can't have both.

This is just fun at this point!

What's it matter anyways? They M1 isn't even for sale any longer! It's like arguing that the Gen4 Bosch doesn't rattle.

At this point there are enough riders that have ridden both on the same loops that report their Avinox bikes burn the battery notably quicker even when turned down. Their are more than 1 PB review that brought this out. The lab efficiency tests didn't turn this up for various reasons including they only tested at max power (where 20 watts of extra drag is a negligible percent of total power and that motor operates at peak efficiency) as well as they had a late stage M1, likely modified (or a ringer) from the earlier units.

 

[Brawwp]

Except Avinox themselves acknowledged it by correcting it on the M2... but okay. They also told Francis that they were shocked he had that inside info about the tight seals. Lol

Dude what? Improving efficiency isn’t acknowledging that the first motor is inefficient compared to Bosch which is exactly what you’ve been implying many times on several threads. Every motor ever has inefficiencies that can be improved upon. The Bosch efficiency can be improved as well. You take little tidbits of info then run wild with them. Please man, just go ride a freaking avinox then talk. You love to talk about them but refuse or won’t ride one.

 

[ZR1]

So then did Avinox lie about improving drag by some % with the M2? Or is the M2s now just more efficient than the other motors, when you guys all claim that the motors are 'all about the same'. You can't have both.

I think most people are pretty consistant, the differences in efficiences are small so if you need more range go for the bigge batteries, that still holds.

Its misleading to call the M1 inefficient, its like popping up in a bosch thead saying the gen5 bosch is old, bulky and gutless, kind true comparing directly to the m2s but its not really the whole picture.

 

[ebsocalmtb]

I'm following along in this thread as a gen 5 cx owner as the zendit is the bike out of all of them, that I could see replacing my bullit with.

One thing that I was told by a friend in the industry (I have not corroborated this, so take it with a grain of salt) is that avinox requires the oem brands to handle warranty replacements on the motors. This includes keeping stock on hand for replacements. While this should be fine in theory, it is a shift in how warranty replacement and management has been done in the industry at large, and with the biggest suppliers to date.

It definitely adds a layer of complication of the IBD dealer working with the oem on drive unit issues. My preference would be that the IBD would just go direct to the drive unit mfg, as there is less to be lost in translation and discarded along the way.

 

[Brawwp]

I'm following along in this thread as a gen 5 cx owner as the zendit is the bike out of all of them, that I could see replacing my bullit with.

One thing that I was told by a friend in the industry (I have not corroborated this, so take it with a grain of salt) is that avinox requires the oem brands to handle warranty replacements on the motors. This includes keeping stock on hand for replacements. While this should be fine in theory, it is a shift in how warranty replacement and management has been done in the industry at large, and with the biggest suppliers to date.

It definitely adds a layer of complication of the IBD dealer working with the oem on drive unit issues. My preference would be that the IBD would just go direct to the drive unit mfg, as there is less to be lost in translation and discarded along the way.

Bosch is exactly the same. Go read their warranty info. They say all claims must go through dealer. Just fyi.

I know this isn’t motor, but my Bosch remote broke day 1 and I contacted Bosch and they made me contact the dealer. Dealer was saying they were on back order and would be a while which was why I contacted Bosch. Not a huge deal.

 

[ebsocalmtb]

Bosch is exactly the same. Go read their warranty info. They say all claims must go through dealer. Just fyi.

I know this isn’t motor, but my Bosch remote broke day 1 and I contacted Bosch and they made me contact the dealer. Dealer was saying they were on back order and would be a while which was why I contacted Bosch. Not a huge deal.

You misunderstood me... you have to go to the dealer in either case. the difference is that the dealer has to go through the oem bike mfg and not directly to avinox for support or replacement motors.

 

[Brawwp]

You misunderstood me... you have to go to the dealer in either case. the difference is that the dealer has to go through the oem bike mfg and not directly to avinox for support or replacement motors.

Ohhhh my bad. I didn’t know that. Does your local have an Avinox demo? I’d try it out, you may find you don’t care anymore about that inconvenience, or it’ll strengthen your decision on Bosch.

Personal preference as I’ve owned both, I would pick Avinox all day even if any warranty claim may take an extra week or whatever. But if that’s a big deal the Bosch is still sick.

 

[ebsocalmtb]

Ohhhh my bad. I didn’t know that. Does your local have an Avinox demo? I’d try it out, you may find you don’t care anymore about that inconvenience, or it’ll strengthen your decision on Bosch.

Personal preference as I’ve owned both, I would pick Avinox all day even if any warranty claim may take an extra week or whatever. But if that’s a big deal the Bosch is still sick.

I don't honestly have a strong opinion either way on ebike drive units. I've ridden all of the avinox motors at this point and I have no desire to own one over the gen 5 bosch that I currently have. The bosch is plenty powerful for me and the bullit that it is mounted to is a better bicycle then the 95% of the avinox bikes that were released/announced. The crestline, zendit and forbidden are the exception.

There are still things that I prefer about the bosch platform for my particular usage case... but if I were buying today, I am 90% certain it would be an avinox m2s drive unit bike. That is... unless the m2s end up being rattly. Clacking/rattling from motor disengagement is a complete non-starter for me and I am absolutely not going back to the bucket of bolts riding experience I dealt with in the first 5 years and 3 ebikes of ownership.

That's why I'm following along. I put about 3k miles a year on ebikes and I'll be due for a new one, or at least a new motor next year.

 

[Highland Wheels]

So then did Avinox lie about improving drag by some % with the M2? Or is the M2s now just more efficient than the other motors, when you guys all claim that the motors are 'all about the same'. You can't have both.

This is just fun at this point!

What's it matter anyways? They M1 isn't even for sale any longer! It's like arguing that the Gen4 Bosch doesn't rattle.

At this point there are enough riders that have ridden both on the same loops that report their Avinox bikes burn the battery notably quicker even when turned down. Their are more than 1 PB review that brought this out. The lab efficiency tests didn't turn this up for various reasons including they only tested at max power (where 20 watts of extra drag is a negligible percent of total power and that motor operates at peak efficiency) as well as they had a late stage M1, likely modified (or a ringer) from the earlier units.

Oh give over, stop reading shit on the Internet and go try it for yourself


I can gurantee you they are pretty much the same in the real world on actual rides. Inefficient is total BS. I've done multiple rides, probably 500kms worth with folk on Gen 5 Boschs set to the same or similar power and assist levels and every ride we have all finished with battery levels within a percent or two of each other.


Totally inefficient, right?

 

[ebsocalmtb]

Oh give over, stop reading shit on the Internet and go try it for yourself


I can gurantee you they are pretty much the same in the real world on actual rides. Inefficient is total BS. I've done multiple rides, probably 500kms worth with folk on Gen 5 Boschs set to the same or similar power and assist levels and every ride we have all finished with battery levels within a percent or two of each other.


Totally inefficient, right?

This mostly aligns with my experience with my local riding group. We all have our motors tuned to relatively similar modes...
Boost: ~100-120NM - 750w - 1000w depending on person and bike
EMTB/Auto: 90-70nm - 700-600w
Trail: 50-70nm - 500-400w

We have a mix of drive units, bosch gen 5 (and race), avinox m1 and m2s and 2 specialized levos (current gen). We all have 600-850w setups depending on internal and range extenders. We typically do rides that are 3000' - 6000' which obviously requires that we all stay somewhat aligned on modes and consumption to make that work. That's is why we've all worked to align ourselves on modes to a certain degree.

I digress... we're all able to do the same rides together using mixtures of modes to get us the range, speed and amount of riding we want. The avinox guys had some challenges initially getting the tuning right because of the massive assist percentages and how that impacts consumption... but at this point we're all pretty leveled across the board and finish with about the same amount.

All that being said, I wouldn't say that the avinox motors are less efficient, if anything they are likely more efficient if you were to level for current draw... however the motor tuning and assist percentage levels, makes them harder to not waste power. In that I mean, using a bit more powerful of a mode then you need to, thus tricking the rider to back off their power input by 10-20-30% and relying more on the motor assist.

So yeah, efficiency isn't the reason for the thread, it's motor rattle, which is something worth paying attention to and helping each other navigate with avinox. The m2 and m2s are clearly the market leader in tech and the big question is going to be longevity, support, issue resolution and what pops up as these units wear. I am thankful that you all are being honest about the drive units, posting here and aligning on how you're handling it. You all are on the front lines validating what seems to be the best product on the market and blazing the path to make sure it lives up to the hype.

 

[Iacari]

Specialized motor, no planetary reduction and no composite gears.
I dont know if it rattles, but the output shaft follows the same solution with a clutch bearing inside the output gear.


.

 

[Cabronista]

Just wading through the pages in this thread, & the odd hissy , and it sounds like we still don't know...does the new M2S rattle or not? If it does, I'm going Bosch Gen 5...

 

[Suns_PSD]

Just wading through the pages in this thread, & the odd hissy , and it sounds like we still don't know...does the new M2S rattle or not? If it does, I'm going Bosch Gen 5...

The rattle on all e-bike motors has always been partially dependent on the bike rear suspension design/ rear hub/ terrain and even manufacturing variance. Which is why not all M1's, Ep801s or Gen4s rattle.

All we know so far is that there are several reports of M2s' rattling after some significant miles/ kilometers. But it was only released last month and there are very few M2s' that have 200+ kms, much less 1K+ kms.

If rattle is a deal killer for you and you are not willing to chance it, I'd suggest buying a Gen5. Or just get some ear plugs!

 

[DS.]

My lads Levo gen 4 definitely rattles

 

[Wojtek]

Avinox/Amflow have to respond to this issue sooner rather than later if they want to keep trust among their customer base and potential new customers. They clearly said the issue has been eliminated as per video available, I have been locked in to get the PR PRO but now with those issues coming out and no reaction from them I am starting to turn my head back at Bosch 5gen.

As it seems to happen after xxx kilometers, i wonder if the solution to eliminate the rattle they came up with wasn't properly tested?
It seems that the consensus of focusing on reliability and optimizing the system as a priority over chasing power and torque proves it is the right one.

 

[teamdoa]

I cannot remember if I said before, but I got a warranty approved on my "M1" motor about a month after I bought my Amflow Pro (the black one) as It had that rattle. That was about 6 months ago when I bought the bike. The new motor is exactly the same. I just live with it, obviously not a lot you can do really. I am very surprised to see it on the new motors though. I honestly think some people just don't notice noises like that, and are not bothered.

EDIT.
I have heard that theory about the rear hub as well. I remember going in the shop where i bought mine and they had the silver cheaper Amflows on display and I tried a few of them and they didnt have the rattle. The Black Pro ones they had, did have the rattle. I am pretty sure I tried two silver and and black that were on display. The different freehub may be a thing?

 

[drive2race4fun]

@amflow - I’m also waiting for your response. I have a px pro on order and I have planned to buy a px (non-pro) for my wife - if I this is not an issue!?

While my px pro is on a lease, I’m mot worried about this as much, but the other bike is just bought, so no free maintenance or replacements if not covered by the guarantee…

 

[PhoS]

I'm at around 150mi , no change in the sound yet.

Edit: DEG DF hub set to 10deg.

 

[slickrock]

I have the feeling that a certain type of rear hub triggers the issue: those with a direct or instant engagement. A fellow rider and myself are both using the Onyx Classic rear hub and we both have the rattle, me on my Forbidden Druid CorE with M1 and him on the new Forbidden DruidE with M2S. He used to have the Druid CorE with M1 before (also with the Onyx rear hub) and had the rattle as well.

I think it could be useful for us if everyone here could let us know if they have the rattle or not and which type of rear hub they are using. Maybe also mentioning the type of bike to keep an eye on the rear kinematics.

Thanks a lot for your participation!

Please provide more details on your friend's Forbidden M2S. These bikes are HP and so have less inherent kickback. Float is in the equation for sure, but really need to know how quick was the onset M2S rattle on the Forbidden. If it was there all along, that would point to setup/installation issue.

 

[Nomadic Dad]

Any update on yours @richy ?

 

[Fangs2k]

What kind of trails are people riding when any motor rattle is intrusive/an issue?

There are many sounds associated with e-mountain biking, the whine of motors under power for one, but there are also suspension sounds, chains slapping, rocks and stones being moved, water etc, and not least the wind through your Thor like flowing hair!

It would have to be some rattle to get above that lot. I sometimes wonder if we’ve lost our way a bit.