DirkWisely
Well-known member
I don't think most of us are actively "waiting". We're just casually uncertain rather than acting as if any of this is certain.
🔋 Semi-Solid-State batteries revolution!
- Thread starter BikeBert
- Start date
Or indeed thinking that it actually ‘matters’ in the grand scheme of things…
The certainty of fools.
Oldfella
Member
Some form of new battery will get here at some stag, probable when the big bike companies aren't selling as many e bikes as they want so a new battery and they all get to start again selling us a new product. You can guaranty they won't be designing them to retro fit our old bikes.
A big advantage I don't think anyone has mentioned is we could transport them. Coming from a small country I'd love to take my bike overseas with me.
A big advantage I don't think anyone has mentioned is we could transport them. Coming from a small country I'd love to take my bike overseas with me.
MountainBoy
Active member
You have provided no evidence that I'm a fool. You are the one claiming we don't have enough information yet to know whether everything claimed about the batteries are true. I'm sure the batteries with the announced specs are not ready for mass production at the same cost per kWh as existing batteries. You seem to be holding out hope that they are.
My question to you:
Who is the real fool here? Time will prove me right on this.
Have a couple of Bosch Powertube 500Wh batteries that came with our 2022 Rails sitting waiting for exactly that eventuality. But not holding my breath, of course.
Asked this question here:
Post in thread 'Industry Veteran Hans Rey Calls for Clearer E-Bike Definitions' https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/...-clearer-e-bike-definitions.45377/post-666466
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MountainBoy
Active member
When you buy an e-bike it's a package deal, bike, batteries, software. The software is integral to the safety and longevity of the batteries, the performance of the bike, future warranty expenses of the manufacturers, etc. So they encrypt the software (and the software access to the hardware).
Sure, encryption can be broken/worked around but it is always less than ideal. I don't see this type of thing as being anything more than a hack that comes with a lot of uncertainty and downside in terms of safety, longevity of motors and batteries, liability, etc.
It shouldn't be the case and this is not for everyone but the sad story is that they close their systems more and more. I don't want access to their precious encrypted firmware, but I want access to the data "MY" bike records, not limited to a proprietary application that you must sign in online to use and that won't let you export that said data to anything standardized. Where is INTEROPERABILITY?
If you do your things right, you can gain access/control to your own item/ebike like the OEM bike manufacturers. Provided you understand what you are modifying, your are not going to sacrifice safety or longevity. On the contrary, you can enhance those.
Surely you don't think the manufacturers give their best in offering something that would not need replacement sooner rather than later, for different reasons. With software you can do those nasty tricks these days.
I serviced electronics for a long time (still do), not limited to E-bikes and I can tell that most things are not build to be serviced these days. Lack of information (service manuals), case designs that make opening without destroying almost impossible, all kinds of software locks and so on. It's like they throw sticks in your wheels.
Last thing I repaired that annoyed me as F&(k was a Supernova M99 mini ebike light. What do you think the problem was? Water inside... a 250Eur sealed bike headlight that is not meant to be opened!!! 2 piece aluminum glued together with some hard silicone on plenty of contact surface. You don't want to know how much time I spent opening this marvel without completely destroy it in the process. Really, I got lucky.
In any case, I managed to repair it in the end, the whole thing took longer than expected (5 hours I think), including PCB repair and case reassembly/sealing. But, I'm not going to do this again
Worth to mention is that prior to this repair, I needed to repair the motor from the same bike. Internal motor DC-DC converter for lights was faulty because the headlight constantly sink more current than normal, keeping the regulator at protection limit. The guy using the bike told me he was starting to have random light errors on the display but continued until error became permanent (like in most cases
) Motor in question was a bosch gen2 cX on a cargo bike.I take safety very seriously (especially with Li ion battery packs) and as a result, my upgraded battery running "proprietary firmware" holds quite well on pair with some motor performance tweaks.
D
Deleted member 37410
Guest
I absolutely hate that software encryption is used to lock things down. Its my f* hardware that I bought. I'm not going to rent it from the producer until they decide to brick it. I had to bring my secondary Kenevo motor to a shop just for them to press a button to get rid of the "Component swap" message. Such humiliating bullshit
I also hate this shit, which is one reason why I'm staying with our bikes which have non-smart Bosch CX 4 motors.
ObiWanBenobi
New Member
- Mar 4, 2026
- 20
- 10
I agree mate. I sold my Bosch gen5 powered bike and won't be buying another Bosch powered bike again after it tried to brick me for using it how I wanted.
TheKaiser
Active member
Agreed fully. Out of curiosity, can you share more about how it tried to brick you, and what were you trying to do that it didn't like? Just wondering, as it could be good info for those of us who might be wanting to do similar stuff!
ObiWanBenobi
New Member
- Mar 4, 2026
- 20
- 10
Just put me in a zero power state after erroring as it detected chip.
Same 503/504 shite. So annoying.
I'm getting something completely different - an mx775 as I love the moto throttle like power and bike like handling.
Had something similar in the past and I'd never had so much fun on a bike but it kept breaking.
It was pretty ahead of its time and the most powerful mid drive available back then.
I know it's not everyone's cup of tea but it's so much fun to me.
D
Deleted member 37410
Guest
I would like to try that bike, looks like a lot of fun. I could not ride it most places that I ride though
Looks like Bafang is ahead in solid state batteries 
electrek.co
Major e-bike company set to launch semi-solid-state battery electric bicycles
Late last year, I had the chance to check out the world’s first semi-solid-state batteries designed for electric bicycles. At...
electrek.co
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
in semi-solid state batteriesLooks like Bafang is ahead in solid state batteries
Major e-bike company set to launch semi-solid-state battery electric bicycles
Late last year, I had the chance to check out the world’s first semi-solid-state batteries designed for electric bicycles. At...
I am just a messenger and have no responsibility for the message
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
the link was correct, your text notLooks like Bafang is ahead in solid state batteries
TheKaiser
Active member
@sethimus Have you been following the various lab tests on the Donut solid state batteries and, if so, what is your take on them? I know there was a lot of skepticism about them, with people questioning if they were actually batteries or some sort of capacitor, if they were vaporware, etc... but it seemed like from a very surface level review they were performing as promised in the lab tests, and they are apparently shipping on the e-motos now, which seems like a real milestone.
It's coming (more battery density to e-bikes, that is).
There has been a persistent rumor that Bosch has denser batteries being released in Q3, but the latest Avinox release had very little power density improvement with the new 700wh battery, and I'd consider DJI at the forefront of such things.
It'll be curious if Bosch can offer something in this space, preferably something that fits in current 600wh bikes, and possibly leapfrog competitors. They sure could use an advantage about now and with the new higher power levels, it's certainly needed!
It'll be fun to watch this space develop.
Also, like some of us said at the beginning of this thread, Donut Labs' claims are fraudelent. Sometimes you don't need to know anything about the specific technology but just know humans and have common sense.
electrek.co
There has been a persistent rumor that Bosch has denser batteries being released in Q3, but the latest Avinox release had very little power density improvement with the new 700wh battery, and I'd consider DJI at the forefront of such things.
It'll be curious if Bosch can offer something in this space, preferably something that fits in current 600wh bikes, and possibly leapfrog competitors. They sure could use an advantage about now and with the new higher power levels, it's certainly needed!
It'll be fun to watch this space develop.
Also, like some of us said at the beginning of this thread, Donut Labs' claims are fraudelent. Sometimes you don't need to know anything about the specific technology but just know humans and have common sense.
Donut Lab's 'miracle' solid-state battery is fraud, says insider, Donut Lab denies
Donut Lab promised a battery with incredible numbers which is ready for mass production. A former employee of a supplier says otherwise.
electrek.co
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Seems to me battery technology is one of the most over promised industries. Significant advances are always just over the horizon. Somebody has a battery in a lab someplace, and supposedly that means it’s about to come to market.
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Mario Antony
Active member
I have a Supernova like that one, I don't ride on rainy days, nor leave the bike outside, but, would you, by any chance have any advice on how to prevent that water ingress?It shouldn't be the case and this is not for everyone but the sad story is that they close their systems more and more. I don't want access to their precious encrypted firmware, but I want access to the data "MY" bike records, not limited to a proprietary application that you must sign in online to use and that won't let you export that said data to anything standardized. Where is INTEROPERABILITY?
If you do your things right, you can gain access/control to your own item/ebike like the OEM bike manufacturers. Provided you understand what you are modifying, your are not going to sacrifice safety or longevity. On the contrary, you can enhance those.
Surely you don't think the manufacturers give their best in offering something that would not need replacement sooner rather than later, for different reasons. With software you can do those nasty tricks these days.
I serviced electronics for a long time (still do), not limited to E-bikes and I can tell that most things are not build to be serviced these days. Lack of information (service manuals), case designs that make opening without destroying almost impossible, all kinds of software locks and so on. It's like they throw sticks in your wheels.
Last thing I repaired that annoyed me as F&(k was a Supernova M99 mini ebike light. What do you think the problem was? Water inside... a 250Eur sealed bike headlight that is not meant to be opened!!! 2 piece aluminum glued together with some hard silicone on plenty of contact surface. You don't want to know how much time I spent opening this marvel without completely destroy it in the process. Really, I got lucky.
In any case, I managed to repair it in the end, the whole thing took longer than expected (5 hours I think), including PCB repair and case reassembly/sealing. But, I'm not going to do this again
Worth to mention is that prior to this repair, I needed to repair the motor from the same bike. Internal motor DC-DC converter for lights was faulty because the headlight constantly sink more current than normal, keeping the regulator at protection limit. The guy using the bike told me he was starting to have random light errors on the display but continued until error became permanent (like in most cases
I take safety very seriously (especially with Li ion battery packs) and as a result, my upgraded battery running "proprietary firmware" holds quite well on pair with some motor performance tweaks.
View attachment 179187View attachment 179188
View attachment 179189
View attachment 179190
Not cheap, and wouldn't like to throw away a light in the future.
Thank you!
Would be very interested in reading more about what you do with bms/battery/motor .
TheKaiser
Active member
Thanks for the link, as I had not seen the newest coverage! I fully agreed with the skepticism expressed earlier in the thread, but had been following their trickle of positive test results on Electrek over the past few months, and had seen that they were actually shipping Verge motorcycles with Donut batteries, so was trying to keep an open mind.Also, like some of us said at the beginning of this thread, Donut Labs' claims are fraudelent. Sometimes you don't need to know anything about the specific technology but just know humans and have common sense.
Donut Lab's 'miracle' solid-state battery is fraud, says insider, Donut Lab denies
Donut Lab promised a battery with incredible numbers which is ready for mass production. A former employee of a supplier says otherwise.
Critically, from the article you linked: "Donut Lab has engaged in independent testing which validates some of its claims, but has left out important details, like energy density and durability. Since these are major parts of Donut Lab’s claims, their exclusion from testing results is suspicious."
That energy density measure is the key thing for most of us hoping for lighter e-bikes, so the fact that they never had that tested is huge. From the comments on that article, I also saw the claim made that the Verge motorcycles that are supposedly shipping with the Donut batteries were all sold to "company insiders" which is another suspicious behavior. It sounds kind of like something Theranos would have done.
Having said all of that, a good portion of the claims people take issue with are related to the scalability of solid state battery manufacture. For my purely recreational emtb usage, I don't really care if they're lying about their ability to hit utility-scale, or mass automotive-scale production, in order to attract investors. If those batteries on the Verge motos were actually tested to be 400Wh/kg, and could hit a reasonable number of charge cycles, and Donut made a limited production run of 1000 of them sized for our e-bikes, I'd be tempted to buy one and wouldn't really care if they couldn't deliver for other applications. Back in my weight weenie analog bike days, it was common for people to use the "$1/gram saved" threshold when determining if a weight saving part was reasonably priced or not. I may be a bit less weight obsessed now but, based on that ratio, a boutique battery maker could sell a 400Wh/kg 800Wh battery for a $2000 premium above our current 200-220Wh/kg batteries, and it wouldn't be out of the question. I'm not saying that would or would not be a viable business, but I'd certainly consider buying one if it were available.
Just do some HONEST research. Solid State batteries are in development and have made major strides, but they years away from mass adoption and production. Solid State is not the only technology in development and it is possible solid state may not be the next energy storage solution.
pagheca
Active member
The problem is that you can do all the research you want, but if you’re not deeply involved in a field, it’s difficult to separate what’s genuinely promising from what’s mostly marketing. The challenge here is largely technological rather than scientific: with solid-state batteries, the key issues are things like preventing microscopic cracks and ensuring long-term stability (at least as far as I understand).
Even when you look at scientific publications, which I do all the time as a scientist, it’s still not straightforward to assess the real state of the art. Companies often keep the most relevant results confidential until they’re closer to commercialization, so the publicly available picture can be incomplete or somewhat misleading.
That said, it seems reasonable to expect that significantly better energy storage solutions will eventually emerge. The more uncertain question is how long it will take before they become mature, affordable, and widely available in markets like e-bikes.
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Press Release Today:
electrek.co
I see an incredible opportunity manufacturing drop-in replacement battery systems for existing e-bikes of all stripes.
Any make or model would be incredible, but I’m sure charging system integrations would present some challenges. Would likely need new chargers, but who knows, not me!
Major e-bike company set to launch semi-solid-state battery electric bicycles
Late last year, I had the chance to check out the world’s first semi-solid-state batteries designed for electric bicycles. At...
electrek.co
I see an incredible opportunity manufacturing drop-in replacement battery systems for existing e-bikes of all stripes.
Any make or model would be incredible, but I’m sure charging system integrations would present some challenges. Would likely need new chargers, but who knows, not me!
