Anyone use Anti-Pedal Kickback Tech on EMTB?

[slickrock]

I guess I was under the impression that a true high pivot (these are really mid-pivots we are discussing in this thread) that the entire point was that you could have high anti-squat AND no pedal kickback just because the distance from the idler wheel to the rear axle did not grow under compression, aka no chain growth.

It's true that HP limits chain growth because the top chain is basically in line with the swingarm if the idler is at least at the swingarm pivot or on the pivot itself (i.e. iTrack). Unfortunately HP does little if nothing for bottom chain line, so it can still flail around, albeit the effects of this flailing is less critical than stopping the behavior on the top chain, but it is still there. One way to quell the bottom chain whip is to use a static chain tensioner hugging the the chain ring from the underside, like what the Slash+ uses. PB has always been fond of that bike and part me wonders if its because it's both a HP and also has the bottom tensioner - basically a good chain taming setup.

As you are familiar (i'm saying this more for other readers), I'm still of the belief that a lot of people sense with kickpack is a large part to do with the chain whip than actual pedal kickback (both from rotational kickpack and suspension activation / chain lengthening), especially on downhills where you are on the lower cogs, where the chain is slackest and the derailleur clutch the weakest. Anything that attends to this dimension of the kickback effects is a step in the right direction. HP bikes attend to about 65% of the problem, but can still leave some on the table, hopefully addressed by other aspects of of the bike setup and specific design.

 

[Suns_PSD]

It's true that HP limits chain growth because the top chain is basically in line with the swingarm if the idler is at least at the swingarm pivot or on the pivot itself (i.e. iTrack). Unfortunately HP does little if nothing for bottom chain line, so it can still flail around, albeit the effects of this flailing is less critical than stopping the behavior on the top chain, but it is still there. One way to quell the bottom chain whip is to use a static chain tensioner hugging the the chain ring from the underside, like what the Slash+ uses. PB has always been fond of that bike and part me wonders if its because it's both a HP and also has the bottom tensioner - basically a good chain taming setup.

As you are familiar (i'm saying this more other readers), I'm still of the belief that a lot of people sense with kickpack is a large part to do with the chain whip than actual pedal kickback (both from rotational kickpack and suspension activation / chain lengthening), especially on downhills where you are on the lower cogs, where the chain is slackest and the derailleur clutch the weakest. Anything that attends to this dimension of the kickback effects is a step in the right direction. HP bikes attend to about 65% of the problem, but can still leave some on the table, hopefully addressed by other aspects of of the bike setup and specific design.

Interesting points.

I run SRAM X01 11 speed on my Relay and am doing the same on my new Wild when it arrives. It's partly a financial decision but I also like that it's light, all steel with good ground clearance. I have tried to feel for PK, even tried a downhill run with no chain and I could feel a difference, but it was very minor and that's with a high engagement hub (Horst Link Suspension, no idler) and I was thinking that either: 1) I'm just not that sensative, 2) Everyone is just putting too much concern in to this topic, 3) possibly my chain being shorter and held more taut (these old 11 speed derailleurs are notably tighter than the Electronic 12 speeds I've owned) I just don't get the same level of feedback?

But the thing is that you don't know what you don't know. Maybe it could feel a lot better.

 

[slickrock]

Interesting points.

I run SRAM X01 11 speed on my Relay and am doing the same on my new Wild when it arrives. It's partly a financial decision but I also like that it's light, all steel with good ground clearance. I have tried to feel for PK, even tried a downhill run with no chain and I could feel a difference, but it was very minor and that's with a high engagement hub (Horst Link Suspension, no idler) and I was thinking that either: 1) I'm just not that sensative, 2) Everyone is just putting too much concern in to this topic, 3) possibly my chain being shorter and held more taut (these old 11 speed derailleurs are notably tighter than the Electronic 12 speeds I've owned) I just don't get the same level of feedback?

But the thing is that you don't know what you don't know. Maybe it could feel a lot better.

Yes, it's probably everything to do with the chain. Anything that can be done to reduce the loop size (less gears, shorter derailleur cage), reduce chain growth (depends on bike suspension design - centric would be a boon here), tighten the chain tension (undercarriage tensioner or derailleur with strong clutch), or do away with it altogether (Belt/MGU), will make the difference.

[Edit: Forgot to add reducing rear travel to the list. I think the reason we are starting to see all this hubbub about kickback effects is we want more and more long travel enduro rigs for EMTBS. Because of this, the chain not only gets longer but gets slacker, and heavier. Not to mention that kinematics get more exaggerated, especially with anti-squat.]

 

[slickrock]

I also have been surprised to experience what seems to be pedal kickback on the eDruid. I previously had a V1 Dreadnought and a V2 Druid, which did not seem to have any kickback.

I will do more extensive testing soon when I have the bike back together (currently upgrading a bunch of components). I noticed the kickback with a DT Swiss 240 DEG hub (90t).

...
I both felt the kick in my feet, and could hear the sound of the DEG ratchet engaging and "clanging". I feel pretty confident in my interpretation of that noise, though, I could somehow be mistaken.

I also noticed that driving the bike home from trails another day, in the 6th cog (24t), the bike bouncing up and down on the rack on paved normal roads caused over a full rotation of the cranks in just a few miles (seen on Tesla rearview cam). this surprised me a lot, coming from the Druid and Dreadnought which I've driven on literal thousand mile roadtrips with zero rotation of the cranks. I know that the motor+battery mass causes much more bounce in the eDruid, but I still believe it must exhibit more kickback and anti-squat than the analog Forbiddens. my current theory is that this is an intentional choice of more anti-squat to manage the torque-y Avinox motor. I also find it a disappointing if an idler bike also requires a chainring or hub PK solution.
...

interestingly, it seems like the Velduro Rogue might exhibit similar levels of pedal kickback. this chart shows 34(chainring)/24(cog), the same pairing I was experiencing PK w/ on the eDruid. presumably it gets worse for bigger cogs.

my theory is that high-torque eMTBs just *need* to have significant anti-squat. HP+idler analog bikes can get by with lower anti-squat and therefore lower PK, so we have a common connotation that "idler == low PK". but it seems to not be the case for idler eMTBs.

while this might seem dumb or pointless ("why not just run a low pivot?") my feeling is that the idler still affords a rearward axle path which would cause completely non-viable amounts of anti-squat and PK without the idler.

or maybe this is my way or rationalizing why I'll probably run a Rimpact on an idler eMTB

There are 3 ways to totally and utterly remove pedal kickback in a rear suspension design:

1. Single pivot bike with idler exactly located at the pivot point
2. Concentric Pivot Four-bar, with concentricity about the main pivot (with pivot at the BB (e.g. Milk Money) or above it(e.g Anakin))
3. Raw-dogging it: No-chain downhill-only ride.

Any other solution, including HP and mid-HP four-bar solutions with an idler will introduce at least some kickback. Why? Because the instant center is moving around throughout the travel while the idler is fixed to the frame on the Forbidden at a single location. So the kickback differences will be very much dependent on the exact idler location (fore or aft, higher or lower, compared to the instance center) and will change dynamically depending on where the IC drifts though travel.

With the Velduro, it’s even more complex due to iTrack, with the increased dynamics of placing the idler on the main swing arm. My sense is that iTrack gives another knob to tune to drive up anti-squat without having push the HP higher ( it’s has like a low-mid Pivot position), which allows anti-rise to more decoupled from AS (a good thing, IMO). But this too can increase kickback as well.

What this all means is that all HP/Mid-HP suspension are clearly not the same and will have varying degrees of KB, even though they are lumped into a similar HP category that on the balance has less kickback that your average four-bar incarnation. I was really hoping that these new HP EMTBs would fully obviate the need for anti-pedal kickback tech, but this may not be guaranteed. Whether or not you feel it is perhaps the most important factor. If you can feel the difference between your Druids, then a VPP or DW4 EMTB would drive you mad.

 

[slickrock]

...
so I guess this makes me wonder about a high-pivot concentric-idler motor-gearbox-unit eMTB of the future
...

You've just stumbled upon it. Having a high-pivot concentric-idler motor-gearbox-unit eMTB would kill pedal kickback and unshackle rear end suspension performance once on for all:

1. It totally removes suspension activated kickback because there would zero chain lengthening. There would be no penalty of having super long rear travel rear end as it moves through its entire travel
2. The chain loop would have zero slack, hence virtually no chain whipping (as waxed on my prior post)
3. No spring tensioner or clutch would be needed to keep chain tension.
4. You can dump the heavy chain and use belt drive - not only less mass than a chain, but can also be more taught, so really no whipping effects at all.
5. An MGU where the output drive is decoupled and above the input drive (i.e. cranks) would afford all the benefits of HP would the downsides and free the design from having to concentrically pivot about the bottom bracket, which would be damn difficult with mid motor MGU in the way. Shimano has a patent for one of these in the works, but whether they bring it market is unknown. The Rivian/ALSO TM-B will arrive in April with this design, but one could hardly call it an EMTB.
6. A concentric HP wheel path would involve some tradeoffs, for example the anti-squat (AS) and anti-rise (AR) will be synchronized, and the pivot height would pretty much fully dictate AS levels, but what you get in the exchange is an unfettered rear suspension feel and cleaner derailleur/tensioner-free setup.

Some day we will be here, but it's gonna take a few new MGU's to come out first.

 

[2WHLFUN]

The emtb youtuber Sam likes bikes tested the ochain on a gen 4 cx motor (I think?) and it didn't do anything for the rattle. Guessing it would be a sim result for the SX(?).

I went ahead and tried an O'Chain because when I push down sharply on the saddle the cranks move backwards a lot more that I expected on my CBF equipped Revel Rerun SX.

I hoped that motor rattle would be less too but unfortunately it's still there.

On the plus side the rear suspension is way more plush & I may add air. Very happy.

 

[Blownoutrides]

I went ahead and tried an O'Chain because when I push down sharply on the saddle the cranks move backwards a lot more that I expected on my CBF equipped Revel Rerun SX.

I hoped that motor rattle would be less too but unfortunately it's still there.

On the plus side the rear suspension is way more plush & I may add air. Very happy.

That's great to hear re. suspension improvements with ochain. I'm always fighting between sensitivity and support... good to know ochain might help bridge the divide.

 

[slickrock]

I went ahead and tried an O'Chain because when I push down sharply on the saddle the cranks move backwards a lot more that I expected on my CBF equipped Revel Rerun SX.

I hoped that motor rattle would be less too but unfortunately it's still there.

On the plus side the rear suspension is way more plush & I may add air. Very happy.

I'm actually quite surprise that your a seeing the pedals move when actuating the suspension. The CBF suspension (focussing on a center of curvature about the chain contact point of the chainring) on the Rerun is about the closet to a zero kickback suspension as you can get, short of actual concentric pivot designs. What cog were you on when you did the test? I would have put this bike on a very short list bikes that would not need an Ochain.

 

[2WHLFUN]

I'm actually quite surprise that your a seeing the pedals move when actuating the suspension. The CBF suspension (focussing on a center of curvature about the chain contact point of the chainring) on the Rerun is about the closet to a zero kickback suspension as you can get, short of actual concentric pivot designs. What cog were you on when you did the test? I would have put this bike on a very short list bikes that would not need an Ochain.

Good thoughts, I forgot to pay attention to what gear I was in when I did my initial test. Oh well, it's on there now

 

[Kepa]

Could always use DT 240 or 350 hubs' DF Technology.

DF Technology | DT Swiss

An anti-pedal kickback system simplified to the max.

www.dtswiss.com

This is intriguing

 

[mtnrider]

The problem I have with all these anti-kickback hubs is at the core they are nothing more then low engagement hubs (usually with adjustability). I've been running the ethirteen sidekick but just swapped them out for a standard low engagement hub. At the end of the day I didn't like having that hub take-up on more technical trails, It was more important to have a quick reacting pedal stroke without the take up.

.

 

[Kepa]

The problem I have with all these anti-kickback hubs is at the core they are nothing more then low engagement hubs (usually with adjustability). I've been running the ethirteen sidekick but just swapped them out for a standard low engagement hub. At the end of the day I didn't like having that hub take-up on more technical trails, It was more important to have a quick reacting pedal stoke without the take up.

.

I’m considering something like this or Ochain/rimpact on my Amish bike park rig, but I share your thoughts of dead band on technical trails. Ochain and rimpact are just way too expensive.

 

[Robstyle]

Fun story, I have a friend with a Bronson with di2 xt. As you might know the new shimano di2 stuff doesn't have a clutch on the derailleur so there's little to no damping effect on the cage.
Anyway, the feedback and noise from chain whip induced pedal movement was something else! Could easily feel it through your feet. I've forgot to switch shimano clutches on in the past, it's like that.
Frustratingly the fix was an stfu and an ochain, it's eliminated the pedal feedback and the noise is almost gone. Just on bigger square edge hits now.

The shop tried to recommend a dt df hub, but it's not a kick back issue here so it would have little to no effect. At least an chainring based unit can help with both scenarios.

 

[Brawwp]

The problem I have with all these anti-kickback hubs is at the core they are nothing more then low engagement hubs (usually with adjustability). I've been running the ethirteen sidekick but just swapped them out for a standard low engagement hub. At the end of the day I didn't like having that hub take-up on more technical trails, It was more important to have a quick reacting pedal stroke without the take up.

.

From what I researched it seems that isn’t true for the e13.

The Dt Swiss deg freedom, yes, that’s like a low engagement hub because if you’re in 20 degree setting, it isn’t always 20 degrees of free play for the kickback, it could be 2degrees depending on where the ratchet is.

The sidekick at its degrees of setting is always that much take up either way. So in 18 degree setting, it is always 18 degrees of allowable free play for the kickback and same for pedal stroke.

I went with the sidekick because of this (was originally set on Dt deg freedom for reliability). Now will it make a difference on my crestline build…idk haha.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Would be so cool if the motor manufacturers could just engineer this into the motor itself.

 

[Kepa]

Fun story, I have a friend with a Bronson with di2 xt. As you might know the new shimano di2 stuff doesn't have a clutch on the derailleur so there's little to no damping effect on the cage.
Anyway, the feedback and noise from chain whip induced pedal movement was something else! Could easily feel it through your feet. I've forgot to switch shimano clutches on in the past, it's like that.
Frustratingly the fix was an stfu and an ochain, it's eliminated the pedal feedback and the noise is almost gone. Just on bigger square edge hits now.

The shop tried to recommend a dt df hub, but it's not a kick back issue here so it would have little to no effect. At least an chainring based unit can help with both scenarios.

Good info Stfu I already have, but I need to try it first before rushing the next big purchase.

 

[John_likes_bikes]

The problem I have with all these anti-kickback hubs is at the core they are nothing more then low engagement hubs (usually with adjustability). I've been running the ethirteen sidekick but just swapped them out for a standard low engagement hub. At the end of the day I didn't like having that hub take-up on more technical trails, It was more important to have a quick reacting pedal stroke without the take up.

.

If you boil it down to the simplest of explanations, yes the affect they have on kickback is the same. Beyond that they are very different.

From what I researched it seems that isn’t true for the e13.

The Dt Swiss deg freedom, yes, that’s like a low engagement hub because if you’re in 20 degree setting, it isn’t always 20 degrees of free play for the kickback, it could be 2degrees depending on where the ratchet is.

The sidekick at its degrees of setting is always that much take up either way. So in 18 degree setting, it is always 18 degrees of allowable free play for the kickback and same for pedal stroke.

I went with the sidekick because of this (was originally set on Dt deg freedom for reliability). Now will it make a difference on my crestline build…idk haha.

DT Swiss and e13 work exactly the same. They have degrees of pre-set dead band plus the varied degrees related on the number of teeth in the ratchet.

 

[slickrock]

Good info Stfu I already have, but I need to try it first before rushing the next big purchase.

Agreed. Based on the sum total of info on this thread so far, I would recommend:

1. Aways start with STFU. It's way cheaper, low tech, and specifically attacks chain-whipping issues, which is often more at the heart of pedal feedback than actual true suspension and rotational kickback effects. If you are satisfied then you know what was the cause.
2. Between chainring damper vs. low-engagement hub, choose the chainring damper because it addresses chain-whipping effects better in additional to kickback reduction. If you already have STFU, then it's more of a toss-up.
3. Choose low engagement hub if you really do have a kickback prone bike and don't have other options (e.g. Avinox folks being held hostage by SRAM) or you prefer swapping wheels onto other bikes.
4. Consider avoiding suspension designs that have a lot a chain growth through suspension activation. These tend to be bikes with high anti-squat, a lot of travel, are low-pivot but have a exaggerated center of curvature (e.g. some VPP variants) throughout the travel. For less chain-whipping effects that would mean suspensions with milder anti-rise (i.e. more active under braking), less gear range (i.e. smaller cassettes and cages), smaller CS length, or dumping the chain altogether for belt drive (MGU required).

 

[Kepa]

Agreed. Based on the some total of info on this thread so far, I would recommend:

1. Aways start with STFU. It's way cheaper, low tech, and specifically attacks chain-whipping issues, which is often more at the heart of pedal feedback than actual true suspension and rotational kickback effects. If you are satisfied then you know what was the cause.
2. Between chainring damper vs. low-engagement hub, choose the chainring damper because it addresses chain-whipping effects better in additional to kickback reduction. If you already have STFU, then it's more of a toss-up.
3. Choose low engagement hub if you really do have a kickback prone bike and don't have other options (e.g. Avinox folks being held hostage by SRAM) or you prefer swapping wheels onto other bikes.
4. Consider avoiding suspension designs that have a lot a chain growth through suspension activation. These tend to be bikes with high anti-squat, a lot of travel, are low-pivot but have an exaggerated center of curvature (e.g. some VPP variants) throughout the travel. For less chain-whipping effects that would mean suspensions with milder anti-rise (i.e. more active under braking), less gear range (i.e. smaller cassettes and cages), smaller CS length, or dumping the chain altogether for belt drive (MGU required).

I appreciate the input, thanks

 

[Brawwp]

DT Swiss and e13 work exactly the same. They have degrees of pre-set dead band plus the varied degrees related on the number of teeth in the ratchet.

They don’t work the same man. Yes, both have pre-set deadband, but they work entirely different within that deadband.

 

[Brawwp]

For those interested in the differences between the sidekick and deg freedom:

DT Swiss deg freedom:
The deg freedom is just space in the ratchet as seen in the pic. You can decide which spacing you want with 20 degree being the biggest gap for engagement. The downside to this system is your engagement within that space could be anywhere. When you pedal it could be instant, or 5 degrees to engage, or 20 degrees, etc. so same for how the kickback would work. Sometimes you may get the full 20 degrees available for the cassette to kickback, sometimes it won’t be any room on the forward movement of the cassette.

E13 sidekick:
The sidekick moves from the middle of whichever setting. So if you’re at 18 degrees, it will always be 18 degrees when you start to pedal. Same for kickback, the cassette will always have 18 degrees either forward or backward to move before engagement. As soon as you’re off the pedal it goes back to that middle area. There is also only 1 paw engaged until that free play is up and then the others engage. So this also makes for less drag and faster with less resistance. Just an added benefit.

So the Dt Swiss could be considered comparable to a very low engagement hub if you pick the higher anti kickback settings.
The sidekick is totally different in how it works and is not really comparable to just a low engagement hub. Is the difference between the two even noticeable, not too sure. I went with the sidekick after finding this out though. Makes more sense to me if you are going after eliminating pedal kickback. Others may go Dt Swiss just for the bomb proof reputation.

 

[mhueschen]

The downside to this system is your engagement within that space could be anywhere. When you pedal it could be instant, or 5 degrees to engage, or 20 degrees, etc. so same for how the kickback would work. Sometimes you may get the full 20 degrees available for the cassette to kickback, sometimes it won’t be any room on the forward movement of the cassette.

this does not align w/ my understanding of the DEG-DF. IIUC, b/c of the drag of the star ratchet teeth against each other, the spoke-side half of the star ratchet (the part which has "freedom" in a DF hub) will always "reset" backwards, to the position shown in your photos. once reset, it would have the full range of 10 or 20 degrees of rotation. with 90t DEG, the 2+/-2 tooth engagement is pretty small, so you effectively get "just" the degrees of freedom.

so my understanding agrees with @John_likes_bikes, that DEG-DF and Sidekick are practically the same.

the bigger issue imo, as I posted about previously, is that a hub-based solution multiplies the degrees of hub-freedom by the gear ratio. causing an enormous degree of crank rotation in larger climb-cogs, where I personally want the tightest engagement.

a crank-based spider has fixed degrees of crank rotation regardless of cog. and it also deadens chain whip.

also, Sidekick in particular adds substantial unsprung mass compared to a DT 240 or 350 hub. this is why I am waiting for the Rimpact eMTB chain damper for my 240 DEG rear hub...

 

[Brawwp]

this does not align w/ my understanding of the DEG-DF. IIUC, b/c of the drag of the star ratchet teeth against each other, the spoke-side half of the star ratchet (the part which has "freedom" in a DF hub) will always "reset" backwards, to the position shown in your photos. once reset, it would have the full range of 10 or 20 degrees of rotation. with 90t DEG, the 2+/-2 tooth engagement is pretty small, so you effectively get "just" the degrees of freedom.

so my understanding agrees with @John_likes_bikes, that DEG-DF and Sidekick are practically the same.

the bigger issue imo, as I posted about previously, is that a hub-based solution multiplies the degrees of hub-freedom by the gear ratio. causing an enormous degree of crank rotation in larger climb-cogs, where I personally want the tightest engagement.

a crank-based spider has fixed degrees of crank rotation regardless of cog. and it also deadens chain whip.

also, Sidekick in particular adds substantial unsprung mass compared to a DT 240 or 350 hub. this is why I am waiting for the Rimpact eMTB chain damper for my 240 DEG rear hub...

Well shoot. Didn’t think Dt Swiss reset, but looking at it now that makes sense.

Both hubs are still beneficial over just a low engagement hub though. I guess with sidekick you just get the added benefits of less draggy and quieter. Dt Swiss you get simplicity and bombproof.

 

[John_likes_bikes]

this does not align w/ my understanding of the DEG-DF. IIUC, b/c of the drag of the star ratchet teeth against each other, the spoke-side half of the star ratchet (the part which has "freedom" in a DF hub) will always "reset" backwards, to the position shown in your photos. once reset, it would have the full range of 10 or 20 degrees of rotation. with 90t DEG, the 2+/-2 tooth engagement is pretty small, so you effectively get "just" the degrees of freedom.

so my understanding agrees with @John_likes_bikes, that DEG-DF and Sidekick are practically the same.

the bigger issue imo, as I posted about previously, is that a hub-based solution multiplies the degrees of hub-freedom by the gear ratio. causing an enormous degree of crank rotation in larger climb-cogs, where I personally want the tightest engagement.

a crank-based spider has fixed degrees of crank rotation regardless of cog. and it also deadens chain whip.

also, Sidekick in particular adds substantial unsprung mass compared to a DT 240 or 350 hub. this is why I am waiting for the Rimpact eMTB chain damper for my 240 DEG rear hub...

Yes sir, you get it.

e13 vs D Swiss I'd take DT Swiss bc it's a lot lighter and more versatile, you can remove the DEG-DF. Hub vs spider based I'd take spider bc engagement feels more natural. Hub might have the maintenance and degrees of deadband advantage, though that'll change with OChain going up to 16 degrees. If you're an Avinox user like me SRAM might show us no love with an ochain version

Your point is valid about climbing but I've found an emtb motor takes up the deadband so fast I don't really notice it in low gears even at 18 degrees on the sidekick. I can imagine on a mtb you might notice it a bit more.

Avinox pre-hub engagement setting actually did a good job up counteracting the deadband but only at lower cadences. It was inconsistent when at high cadence it wouldn't spin up fast enough to match. DJI said that's the limit of the setting.

 

[Brawwp]

Yes sir, you get it.

e13 vs D Swiss I'd take DT Swiss bc it's a lot lighter and more versatile, you can remove the DEG-DF. Hub vs spider based I'd take spider bc engagement feels more natural. Hub might have the maintenance and degrees of deadband advantage, though that'll change with OChain going up to 16 degrees. If you're an Avinox user like me SRAM might show us no love with an ochain version

Your point is valid about climbing but I've found an emtb motor takes up the deadband so fast I don't really notice it in low gears even at 18 degrees on the sidekick. I can imagine on a mtb you might notice it a bit more.

Avinox pre-hub engagement setting actually did a good job up counteracting the deadband but only at lower cadences. It was inconsistent when at high cadence it wouldn't spin up fast enough to match. DJI said that's the limit of the setting.

Did you notice a big improvement in coasting speed with the sidekick? Like lack of drag, or is that overhyped in their marketing?

I definitely notice more drag when switching to i9 hydra 2 hub vs my previous hub.

 

[John_likes_bikes]

Did you notice a big improvement in coasting speed with the sidekick? Like lack of drag, or is that overhyped in their marketing?

I definitely notice more drag when switching to i9 hydra 2 hub vs my previous hub.

For me the noticeable different in drag between the sidekick and Hydra 1 was on the stand, not on the trail. Biggest difference on the trial is the e13 is nearly silent.

 

[Brawwp]

For me the noticeable different in drag between the sidekick and Hydra 1 was on the stand, not on the trail. Biggest difference on the trial is the e13 is nearly silent.

Damn I should have went Dt Swiss

I got my reserve wheels with the sidekick hubs now. Just got to set them up. Was going to wait for my crestline frame, but I may just go ahead and set it up and give them a go. I do like the idea of a silent hub though after the extremely loud hydra 2s

 

[Natch]

The problem I have with all these anti-kickback hubs is at the core they are nothing more then low engagement hubs (usually with adjustability). I've been running the ethirteen sidekick but just swapped them out for a standard low engagement hub. At the end of the day I didn't like having that hub take-up on more technical trails, It was more important to have a quick reacting pedal stroke without the take up.

.

On my e-bike I have the Sidekick set at maximum movement because I can’t feel the take-up at all. The motor spins up to engage the hub faster than my feet apparently.

On my regular bike I set the Sidekick to minimum since the take-up is super obvious.

 

[mtnrider]

On my e-bike I have the Sidekick set at maximum movement because I can’t feel the take-up at all. The motor spins up to engage the hub faster than my feet apparently.

On my regular bike I set the Sidekick to minimum since the take-up is super obvious.

I have mine set on minimum (12) and can really feel the take up on slow technical climbs (avinox motor). I do have my settings dialed way back (power and tq) to give a more natural pedal feel to the bike.

.

 

[Mteam]

this does not align w/ my understanding of the DEG-DF. IIUC, b/c of the drag of the star ratchet teeth against each other, the spoke-side half of the star ratchet (the part which has "freedom" in a DF hub) will always "reset" backwards, to the position shown in your photos. once reset, it would have the full range of 10 or 20 degrees of rotation. with 90t DEG, the 2+/-2 tooth engagement is pretty small, so you effectively get "just" the degrees of freedom.

so my understanding agrees with @John_likes_bikes, that DEG-DF and Sidekick are practically the same.

the bigger issue imo, as I posted about previously, is that a hub-based solution multiplies the degrees of hub-freedom by the gear ratio. causing an enormous degree of crank rotation in larger climb-cogs, where I personally want the tightest engagement.

a crank-based spider has fixed degrees of crank rotation regardless of cog. and it also deadens chain whip.

also, Sidekick in particular adds substantial unsprung mass compared to a DT 240 or 350 hub. this is why I am waiting for the Rimpact eMTB chain damper for my 240 DEG rear hub...

Yeah the dt Swiss df hub 'resets' by the drag of the freehub. So you get the degrees of freedom set in the hub 0,10or 20 degrees, plus the random float in the ratchet teeth.

I have a df hub set at 10degree, its decent, makes things feel a bit smoother/calmer.

I wouldn't swap out a perfectly good working rear hub for one, but if you need a new rear hub anyway then you may as well get a dt Swiss df hub.