Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?

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Phewww ... what a thread ..

I'm pretty sure this is a "discussion" thread. I think that's where we listen to other people's views, absorb and analyse them, think things over then "discuss" the positives and negatives. (I'm as bad as everyone else...).

The 250w "nominal" is discussed in detail in a thread somewhere, but I'm too lazy to look for it. It's all about heat.

Motors have always been able to produce more than that in terms of pure electrical power though.

Old example from a 500wh Kenevo.

1745833406480.png


The App wouldn't display more than 99wh/km and I had to ease off the power to take a screen capture. But basically here, it flattens the battery in about 30 minutes. The fastest I've flattened it was 25 minutes. Obviously you need steep and to be pushing hard. If you only interpreted the 250w in electrical power terms then in theory, if you ignored losses, you'd have 2 hours riding out of 500wh.

Hence, ballpark, the Amflow isn't significantly more than we have/have had (Brose 1.3 - 840w peak, Amflow 1000w - peak). Personally, I think the discussion is more about the future and saying where we limit things.

I'm pretty sure even during Covid, when everyone was stressed and pissed off, people were far more civil in their discussions ??

For example, we weren't allowed out, so I built a bike park in the back garden "Apocalypse Bike Park" - so I could still ride.

1745833777528.png


Lots of people were doing other similar stupid stuff - making the most of life ..

Even in threads there was humour .. can we maybe wind things back a bit and add a bit of humour back in and show a bit of respect to our fellow members - we all share the same passion do we not ?

Example or minor humour even during covid for anyone who doesn't understand ..

Post Apocalypse Kenevo

A quick break from Trail building ...
www.emtbforums.com www.emtbforums.com
 
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MBR catch-up with the news:
www.mbr.co.uk

DJI announces 1,000W Turbo mode power boost for Avinox motor, just as German bike industry proposes 750W limit - MBR

DJI has quietly dropped a bombshell on the e-bike market. Last week the drone, camera, and now e-bike motor manufacturer, announced a free firmware update that would give owners full and unfettered access to the maximum 1,000w of peak power. Previously this was only available in Boost mode in...
www.mbr.co.uk www.mbr.co.uk

And Tom Marvin and Rob Weaver discuss the issues around more powerful eBike motors on the BikeRadar podcast:
open.spotify.com

eMTBs are more powerful than ever – but that’s not always a good thing

The BikeRadar Podcast · Episode
open.spotify.com open.spotify.com
 
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LeftItLancs said:
You are just repeating what you said earlier, which you read somewhere online, and moving the goal posts slightly each time, and while still avoiding my question.

You don't know what new technology and innovation is in the pipeline or what the "limit" of "physics" is with regard to future "peak power".

Because you believe that 1,000 watts is the limit because it suits your ideological stance.
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Firstly. I don't think there should be any limit other than the rated motor limit, and the speed limit.

Secondly. I'm an Electrical Engineer who worked for Siemens and now Schneider in the Inverter Drive Systems. So whilst significantly different to the brushless DC systems in EMTBs. I am speaking from my experience in tuning drives for different loads and optimising efficiency. But installations I have done have had peak power restrictions, due to supply restrictions. And it makes it a nightmare to achieve the desired load performance.

What I have been able to do when not restricted by peak power, is take lower rated motors, and tune them to perform tasks, that without my control logic, would have required much larger rated motors. So I'm opposed to regulation, for the sake of regulation, when it impacts the ability to solve the problem. The problem I see this creating is, reducing the climbability of the EMTB when we are bound to a 250W rated motor.

If I'm not answering the question you have asked. Then you haven't asked it properly.

So I'll say it again. The Physics I talk about, is the Energy equation. Due to Power multiplied by time being Energy. Which heat is a side effect of in an electric motor. You cannot produce unlimited peak power for unlimited time from a 250 watt rated motor. So let the engineers maximise the performance of this motor to give the best all round EMTB performance.

It's a 250 watt motor. Not a motorcycle or motor vehicle motor, which are rated at many thousands of watts. The power to weight ratios when carrying a rider, aren't remotely close,
 
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Many years ago I learned that the art of debate....or discussion.....it to deal with the issue being discussed . Sounds obvious right?? The temptation all to often however is to criticise the supporter of an opposing view. A debate then becomes nothing more than a slanging match! Nobody wins and no benefit accrues.
@Zimmerframe is right.......try some humour.
 
Mikerb said:
Many years ago I learned that the art of debate....or discussion.....it to deal with the issue being discussed . Sounds obvious right?? The temptation all to often however is to criticise the supporter of an opposing view. A debate then becomes nothing more than a slanging match! Nobody wins and no benefit accrues.
@Zimmerframe is right.......try some humour.
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I tried the kangaroo jumping humour and got shot down for it. :ROFLMAO:
 
I'll end the conversation here I guess because it is just going round and round in circles.

I didn't claim a 250 watt engine could or should produce unlimited peak power, and keep shifting the goalposts all you like. I simply asked what the science says, as you constantly quote science, but unfortunately you are still unable to say if engineers are currently maximising performances or not and even at 1,000 watts peak power.

You simply don't know.

The fact that most ebikes can be unrestricted suggests currently engineers are complying with legislation rather than maximising overall performance and including peak power, and hence the surrounding debate.

You have no evidence 1,000 watts is the limit. 1,000 peak watts today could become 1,500 peak watts tomorrow.

Enjoy your day.
 
LeftItLancs said:
You have no evidence 1,000 watts is the limit. 1,000 peak watts today could become 1,500 peak watts tomorrow.
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Something we agree on. Innovation is amazing. Let's hope Bosch Engineers solve this, so there's a chance it won't be regulated against. :ROFLMAO:
 
I am not an electrical engineer but reading various articles on "nominal power" rating and testing, the basics appear to be that an electric motor can run continuously at its nominal power without damaging itself....mostly due to not overheating its coils.
So it is also the case that much higher power outputs are possible but are time limited.
The management of heat therefore appears to be a key governing factor. I assume ambient heat also contributes to motor generated heat.
So if the peak power is specified as 800w is that in fact continuous ? Is it 800w for 1 second? Is it 800w for 30 seconds but derated every other second? Should the discussion actually be about torque?
 
Mikerb said:
I am not an electrical engineer but reading various articles on "nominal power" rating and testing, the basics appear to be that an electric motor can run continuously at its nominal power without damaging itself....mostly due to not overheating its coils.
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If you run continuously above rated power. It's normally the windings insulation that melts, and the motor shorts out.
Mikerb said:
The management of heat therefore appears to be a key governing factor. I assume ambient heat also contributes to motor generated heat.
So if the peak power is specified as 800w is that in fact continuous ? Is it 800w for 1 second? Is it 800w for 30 seconds but derated every other second? Should the discussion actually be about torque?
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Let's not open that discussion again. But continuous and peak power are not the same. I think there is some mis-understanding in public perception.

Power and Torque are directly proportional. So it doesn't matter which you discuss. But power is normally discussed because it's mentioned in Ebike regulations.
 
I am more familiar with internal combustion engines having both raced cars ..offroad...and machined and built my own engines for that. Just like emtb relatively high torque at low revs gave the best balance of power and control. That is how I have my Bosch cx motors tuned and for my type of natural forest trails it's all I need.
I had a club mate, we both raced Minis. He went full race....race cam, semi short stroke etc. I used more of a Vizard Mini 7 design but more Rally than race. If conditions were hard and dry and the track had long straight sections he won. If the track was wet, loose and with tighter turns etc, I won.
Given in wet or dry conditions on my forest trails, emtb is about traction and control, I think a progressive torque curve with good levels of torque at low cadence is the main priority for me. Maximum assisted speed is really only really relevant on the flat or on a fireroad climb.........maybe also on a bike park jump run, so more important for riders with those sorts of trails.
So in summary neither extra power or greater assisted speed interest me. I would be more excited about a new motor with 5 years warranty and smaller, lighter batteries with c700wh capacity than the current crop
 
Looks like DJI will decide the future. 1000w anytime update coming rumor dropped.

www.mbr.co.uk

DJI announces 1,000W Turbo mode power boost for Avinox motor, just as German bike industry proposes 750W limit - MBR

DJI has quietly dropped a bombshell on the e-bike market. Last week the drone, camera, and now e-bike motor manufacturer, announced a free firmware update that would give owners full and unfettered access to the maximum 1,000w of peak power. Previously this was only available in Boost mode in...
www.mbr.co.uk www.mbr.co.uk
 
Where’s the Mod when ya need them?
Guys and you know who you are shut up.

All the back and forth your providing is not productive.
Different opinions are great but when someone disagrees let it go.

Nobody‘s right 100% of the time.
Just like when I was unaware of a 21700 cell being able to have a higher rating than 5ahr.
When I was corrected by another member on here did I argue with him? Nope I thanked him for his insight and hey I learned something I didn’t know. Win, win.

Just focus on the topic or move on.
Start your own thread on specifics or whatever point you want to drive home.

This is all conjecture anyway until Regs get passed or are officially announced.

Enough of that.

Did you guys see the vlog on Bosch supposedly doing the update to a higher peak wattage For their latest and greatest motor?
Apparently it will only be for the new version and not the one that has allready been released.
That kinda sucks if you just bought into one of those.

Just like what Specialized says about increasing torque/wattage on the S Works model only and not the others.
From what I heard you won’t be able to swap out a lower spec 3.1 motor to the higher rated version as the mounting is different as well as the software.
I don’t really follow the logic on only providing the boost for the top tier version of the gen4 as I see a lot more of the lower spec models on the trails compared to the S Works.
Having a product that is not upgradeable is a negative in my book, especially when these things cost a bit of coin to start with.
Now I’m done.
 
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Downhillr said:
higher power can be misused and weaponized as another excuse to ban e-bikes which benefits none of us.
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It sounds like those bay area scumbags already hate all bikes. Let alone ebikes. Your complaint noted, but it sounds like its old age driven. I dont care about speed and power and im scared! so screw all you guys that can use the power.

HARD PASS
 
retrograde said:
Love the gold country. I have friends in Grass Valley. You have so many trail networks up there. Also fun to hit the Yuba River or go canoeing Lake Folsom. And if you need someone to help with your 4x4, tons of good shops. I heard Specialized has a kinematics group up your way.

In my part of coastal SoCal, the ratio of trail users to trails is pretty high - getting along with everyone is key.
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I ride from my house to Folsom lake
20240524_143517.jpg
This is my backyard trails are all around that lake. El Dorado Hills, Granite bay, Salmon Falls, Cronan ranch, Disney trails. Plus Hidden Falls, Nevada city, Auburn/Foresthill

I lived a mile above the Auburn trails, now im 2 miles above Folsoms tails

Its why I ride 400 miles a month.
 
Mikerb said:
I learned that the art of debate..
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It is an art, It is salesmanship. Nothing can prepare you like understanding law, and Aristotelean rhetorical prose.

Not a problem here with the boys discussing their complaints, even the different geographic locations throw a curveball.

But in the end, more power sells, and we are seeing prime examples of such with the new bikes out. And its fkn awesome! and ill jump on board quickly. Adding to my current bike which has an EP801 with a 900w battery. Ill take more power. I ride in summer due to increased temps which results in extra battery range, 30 miles a day, 4 to 5 days a week. And winter 25 miles a day over some technical single track, and flowy sections. I feel sorry for those that live in shitty areas where they cant use more power. But there is no turning back. Whining wont help these boys.
 
Mikerb said:
it's all I need.
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Have you ever tried to KOM your local trails? Carrying speed on downhills is huge for climbing the one on front of you.

Also I do a lot of 1000' climbs. Many times im chasing daylight, I want to get home, or over the ridge to start the next downhill segment.
 
Money dude? Really?

Let’s do the math.
Just a ballpark on my guesstimate here so if anyone knows facts just plug em in.
I‘m Guessing a ratio of 5/1 for S Works sale compared to the lower tiered models Pro, Expert, Comp Carbon. Not counting the alloy since it’s not availible yet here in So. Cal.
Hell I bet it’s more like 10/1 but I will use the first ratio to make my point.
Let’s also say they are making a 30% profit on each sale.

Sell one S Works bike and they make $4,050.

Sell say (2) Pro, (1) Expert, and (2) Comp Carbon and they make $14,240.

Maybe the majority of the bikes they sell are S Works but not what I see on the trails here.
But living down here in SD there is really not that many good spots to ride within a easy drive so what do I know.

Much more $ to be made selling lower spec’d models instead of the top gun.

S Works are going for 13.5k
Pro model is 11k
Expert is 9.5k
Comp Carbon is 8k

I think May 1st the 10% increase kicks in so there’s that to consider as well.

I have 3 buddy’s that were all hot to get the gen4 and after seeing them there not so hot especially since they can’t get the max rated one unless they sell a kidney which I think they said they wanted to keep, at least for now anyway.
 
Greeno said:
Maybe the majority of the bikes they sell are S Works but not what I see on the trails here.
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Most people were not incentivized like they are now. In the past most were hovering in that 80nm range.

My local shop first bike seen and sold was the Sworks special ordered. A few Employees had lesser models.

They did it for money, it is a business, is it not? always follow the money
 
Greeno said:
Maybe the majority of the bikes they sell are S Works but not what I see on the trails here.
But living down here in SD ...
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Last week my LBS mentioned for "us", S-Works is backordered for many months (thought he said August?). I thought his phrasing was interesting as it seemed to imply there are allocations. But I could have misread him.
 
Robin Grant said:
Benji Haworth weighs in on the debate over at Singletrack:

singletrackworld.com

Who loses out if new ebike rules are introduced?

DJI? Deliveroo? Disabled people? Proposals to set a 750w peak power limit appear to be on the cards.
singletrackworld.com singletrackworld.com
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Good article.

Anyone who’s ridden a DJI Avinox ebike – such as the Amflow PL Carbon – will know that it doesn’t take very many rider input watts to get the motor ro give out its much hyped 1,000 watts of motor assistance. The experience is akin to using soft-pedalling of the cranks as essentially a throttle.

It’s this ‘support ratio’ issue that the bike industry is concerned about. Although 1,000w pedal assist bikes are still quite far off things like Surron e-motos in terms of power (minimum 12,500w of peak), there’s no denying that higher and higher wattage e-bikes have the potential to stray too far from regular bicycles.
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Plyphon said:
I hope for V2 Amflow releases a 50,000w motor with 500nm of torque, with the ability to set your location to the Isle of Man where they don't have speed limits, so I can finally make it around the blue trail at Swinley.
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Or you could race the TT on it.
 
Plyphon said:
I hope for V2 Amflow releases a 50,000w motor with 500nm of torque, with the ability to set your location to the Isle of Man where they don't have speed limits, so I can finally make it around the blue trail at Swinley.
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Back in the day we tried to wheelie around part of the TT course on supermotos. I couldn't get around the tighter corners but Nige Harford (RIP) could and it really was f7cking epic watching him. Different days, just saying.
 
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