Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?

[Amber Valley Guy]

Right, many slow people say that. If you were able to ride fast, and you raced, you would have a different outlook.

I do agree we get stereotyped with Surrons. And your opinion on that.

This isn't about riding fast or racing, have you actually been reading this thread? It's about keeping e-mtbs within the parameters of whatever country laws apply. And the question is are powerful e-mtbs like say an Amflow (1000w peak) pushing those parameters a bit to much? Personally (and if you read what I'd said) I don't have a problem with them if they comply with regulations (torque, power, speed).

 

[Winford]

Amber Valley Guy said. This isn't about riding fast or racing,​

To hell it isn't. What do you think sells bikes, winners sell bikes.

It's about keeping e-mtbs within the parameters of whatever country laws apply.

BS - that is what slow people say with little skill.

learn how to use the quote feature

 

[Winford]

I accept the warts and issues that come along with the opportunities here in CA.

Agreed. Its a loved and hated state. Where I live is probably one of the best places to live in the world, in the gold country. But the politics and some laws are just stupid as dirt. Take the good with the bad I guess. One thing is certain, it has some the best mnt bike trail systems that exist.

 

[Greeno]

Different regions, different rules, just be aware of where your riding and conform to that reality.
Being down here in SD and riding in these diverse areas believe it or not is different when visiting other locale.
Heading up to Arcata up in Northern Cal next week to ride for a few days then up to Bandon Or. ( Whisky Run) for a week, then up to the La Grande ( Ely Mtn area) area for another week and finally coming back down through Ashland, Tahoe, and Mammoth before getting back home.
What I try to do is hit a bike shop in each of those areas and get the lay of the land to better understand the current vibe so to speak.
I was told last year when I ventured up here that the Bend Or. area wasn’t a good spot to ride e-bikes due to non e- biker’s attitude’s.
Nuff said… lots of other places to go.

So I feel the current bike market will weave it’s way forward without too much trouble.
Some grumbling is common when a new player shows up (DJI),( US Politics ) and it all has a way of working out.

It will be interesting to see what DJI has in store for their version 2 kit while the established players to be are still trying to cover the first one.

Nothing but innovation for us as consumers hopefully will be fast tracked along instead of the usual trickle effect every now and then.

Look at what Tesla did for the EV market, kicked the top tier companies in the a-s to make better products.
More power, better range, better battery’s, sound familiar?

 

[Winford]

I had a (now lapsed) road racing licence for 10 years so don't pull the racing shit on me sunshine. Bless.

then we may know some of the same people. Im in A group at 62 years old and ride Sonoma and Laguna and Thill east and west on a regular basis. A girl im crazy about rides a 400 and goes around me all the time, even when im on my Ducati. Now put her on my bike, and she would be faster. I understand where you are coming from.

My point is you could give an Amflow PL to most riders, and they will not be getting any more KOMs or winning any races. Matter of fact one guy has one here already in northern Ca, he is not competitive in any way. Not a threat.

 

[Winford]

Tesla did for the EV market

I built a mean 10s Zo6. And the fastest car I have ever been in is a Tesla. Not sure I want to drive a car that fkn fast on a daily basis. And my track Ducati is a high 9s bike

 

[Winford]

Strava is frowned upon here since it gets secret trails closed.

I'm in it for the trails that drop >1000'/mile

Here, the secret trails are so technical, 95% will walk their bikes out. We have so many trail systems, there are no real secret trails. You just better be good on technical features if you hit peoples personal trails.

That and we just have so many miles of trails in every direction, no need for hidden gems. I am lucky.

I can leave my house and probably have close to a 100 miles of popular trails, some are on the top 10 global scale. Culvert out of Auburn was in my backyard for 30 years, Hoot is a 30 min drive. I think both are in the top ten.

Here 1000' for 3 miles is average, but you must know wtf you are doing. We do have those here as well. I usually do not ride those alone. And ive climbed and dropped 244,000 feet for the year.

 

[RustyIron]

Where I live is probably one of the best places to live in the world, in the gold country.

But the politics and some laws are just stupid as dirt. Take the good with the bad I guess.

The Gold Country is nice, right below OC on the list of top places to live and ride. Or is it the other way around? Regardless, we both get to ride great trails almost any day of the year. And if we get bored, there are 100 other world-class destinations within a day's drive.

The world loves to hate us for whatever reasons. But when you read about the trials and tribulations of riders from other states and countries, you can't help but wonder why they don't get the hell out of there and come here. I'm not talking about one or two places, I'm talking about ALL of them. But they're probably thinking the exact same thing about us.

 

[irie]

then we may know some of the same people.

I'm in the UK, you're in California, so no we don't,

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

This thread has veered off topic and crashed into a cess pit.

 

[Chairman]

Here, the secret trails are so technical, 95% will walk their bikes out. We have so many trail systems, there are no real secret trails. You just better be good on technical features if you hit peoples personal trails.

That and we just have so many miles of trails in every direction, no need for hidden gems. I am lucky.

I can leave my house and probably have close to a 100 miles of popular trails, some are on the top 10 global scale. Culvert out of Auburn was in my backyard for 30 years, Hoot is a 30 min drive. I think both are in the top ten.

Here 1000' for 3 miles is average, but you must know wtf you are doing. We do have those here as well. I usually do not ride those alone. And ive climbed and dropped 244,000 feet for the year.

Sounds a bit like Rotorua. We are blessed

 

[Emailsucks98]

To hell it isn't. What do you think sells bikes, winners sell bikes.​

I think you’re mixing up disciplines though. Nobody really cares about eBike racing. At best it’s a social endeavor or just retired enduro racers doing product development.

Also, Brian lopes.
.

 

[Winford]

I'm in the UK, you're in California, so no we don't,

Current world titles are not easily forgotten.

 

[Winford]

I think you’re mixing up disciplines though. Nobody really cares about eBike racing. At best it’s a social endeavor or just retired enduro racers doing product development.

Also, Brian lopes.
.

Motorcycles and bikes share the same sales methods. The roadies win a big race, and the large companies post it all over the media. Mnt bikes? agree, not pushed the same way. But engineering, and sales are done so by who is winning what.

 

[Winford]

Nobody really cares about eBike racing.

Here its a bit larger than that. Again I live in the endurance capitol of the world. More ebikes are on the trails than manuals. Because the canyons are so steep. Put it this way, Specialized has their research and development located here.

 

[Lightme]

Now this photo doesn't do this climb justice. But to climb this you momentum and power. This currently is beyond even my EP801. But only just. So I'm thinking I should be able to clear this with my Amflow. When I attempt this with my current motor, depending on where I stall. It's quite precarious, and easy to fall over. So being able to clear it will without stalling will mean less chance of falling.

Granted I could get off and walk the bike up. But that's not why I ride.

Getting better is part of why I ride. And I do that by both improving myself and improving the EMTB. And having an increase in peak power of 250 watts, whilst maintaining the speed limit, will hurt no one.

View attachment 159477

Is that at Reggies in the Cascades, Sydney?

 

[Downhillr]

That is wise and sage advise. Im in northern Ca and it is the same here. 70% ebikes verses 30% manuals and all the fast people are unlocked and the rangers have been nothing but polite and never once been a problem for any aspect of riding. If anything they help with trail accidents. We are not policed by anyone, and have freedom to do as we please. Now we do live in some rugged country and here stupidity means you crash and hurt yourself and your pride. You can stay here and be stupid. I belong to one of the largest ebike clubs in northern Ca, and we have some of the fastest talent. Our group is pretty dedicated to being good trail stewards, and guess what, when we want to cut loose and bomb an empty trail using all the power we have, no one cares. What I have seen in this thread, is a bunch of whiny slow people. Not you

I live in the SF Bay/Santa Cruz area and we have many trails (both legal & unsanctioned), however, one of the biggest land managers has a hard “no e-bike” policy due to the same equestrian/hiker contingent that banned all bikes for decades. The rangers waste time and payroll on enforcement and several I’ve chatted with aren’t true believers in a ban decided at administrative levels. Riders hooe that at some point things change. At 74 years old (and with a DMV placard due to bum knees/surgeries) I am not the rider i was in earlier years and frankly as that slower rider you mention I’d personally welcome the power bump.
My concern (whine) is that higher power can be misused and weaponized as another excuse to ban e-bikes which benefits none of us.

 

[Astro66]

How is reaching what you claim is the limit of physics, the best balance, and the best balance for whom exactly?

A more capable EMTB is better than a less capable EMTB. If you don't need higher peak powers. Don't buy it. Just like you don't buy a 200mm travel triple clamp fork if you don't need it. But what you don't do is start putting regulations, just because not everyone uses that requirement.

Which is, what exactly is physics deeming?

Here are the current EU regulations, which Australia also adheres to.

Key EU E-bike Regulations:

• Power Limit: The motor must be limited to a continuous rated power of 250 watts.
  
  
• Speed Limit: Motor assistance is only available up to a speed of 25 km/h.
  
  
• Pedal Assistance: The motor must only be activated by pedaling, and the assistance must stop when the speed exceeds 25 km/h.

With a continuous rating of 250 Watts. You are not going to be able to have unlimited peak power. Because the higher the peak. The lower the trough must be. So let engineers design the best power profile to give the bike the most capable operation for what it is being used. The regulation of power limit has been created. It's 250 watts continuous. There is no maximum. There doesn't need to be a maximum.

The peak power boundary will be governed by how the bike performs, when you factor in that the power profile required to meet the 250 watt continuous power regulation, requires for more power above 250 watts. You need more power below 250 watts. That's just Physics.

A EMTB that goes from a ridiculously high peak power, to a ridiculously low trough power to meet the 250W continuous power regulation, would be useless. It would be like riding a kangaroo. Not that I've tried ......

 

[Astro66]

Is that at Reggies in the Cascades, Sydney?

No. South Connex at Loftus.

 

[Chairman]

A more capable EMTB is better than a less capable EMTB. If you don't need higher peak powers. Don't buy it. Just like you don't buy a 200mm travel triple clamp fork if you don't need it. But what you don't do is start putting regulations, just because not everyone uses that requirement.

Here are the current EU regulations, which Australia also adheres to.

Key EU E-bike Regulations:

• Power Limit: The motor must be limited to a continuous rated power of 250 watts.
  
  
• Speed Limit: Motor assistance is only available up to a speed of 25 km/h.
  
  
• Pedal Assistance: The motor must only be activated by pedaling, and the assistance must stop when the speed exceeds 25 km/h.

With a continuous rating of 250 Watts. You are not going to be able to have unlimited peak power. Because the higher the peak. The lower the trough must be. So let engineers design the best power profile to give the bike the most capable operation for what it is being used. The regulation of power limit has been created. It's 250 watts continuous. There is no maximum. There doesn't need to be a maximum.

The peak power boundary will be governed by how the bike performs, when you factor in that the power profile required to meet the 250 watt continuous power regulation, requires for more power above 250 watts. You need more power below 250 watts. That's just Physics.

A EMTB that goes from a ridiculously high peak power, to a ridiculously low trough power to meet the 250W continuous power regulation, would be useless. It would be like riding a kangaroo. Not that I've tried ......

I am still not understanding what a continuous power wattage of 250 actually means

 

[Greeno]

I think it means that it can continuously power 250w for an extended or unlimited period of time and not overheat.

 

[Astro66]

I am still not understanding what a continuous power wattage of 250 actually means

It's the maximum power you can run something at continuously. You can have bursts of higher power, but it can't be too high or too long, or you'll need to run it at lower power to reduce heat or you'll burn the device out.

 

[retrograde]

Now that is just sad as hell. Im in Northern Ca, and in the gold country which is all steep canyons. It could be used here. I am lucky, all bike trails worth riding are wide open to ebikes.

Love the gold country. I have friends in Grass Valley. You have so many trail networks up there. Also fun to hit the Yuba River or go canoeing Lake Folsom. And if you need someone to help with your 4x4, tons of good shops. I heard Specialized has a kinematics group up your way.

In my part of coastal SoCal, the ratio of trail users to trails is pretty high - getting along with everyone is key.

 

[LeftItLancs]

So let engineers design the best power profile to give the bike the most capable operation for what it is being used.

So you can't provide any mathematical theory behind what 'physics' actually means in relation to your previous claim.

The physics that might (or might not) demonstrate that in fact 1,500 watts peak power is the ideal scenario for an innovative shiny new engine engineers have just designed, but you don't actually know.

Because it's like "riding a kangaroo", right?

You have ducked the questions I asked, again, and you are again attempting to disguise your personal preference behind a science you refuse to explain technically but which you still quote anyway.

In one breath you unequivocably stated "physics" and "innovation" should decide, whatever that physics means, and now in the next breath you state let "engineers" decide instead.

You contradict yourself, because quite clearly engineers are already making broader decisions within a preexisting legislative framework, and not solely based on a laissez-faire, free market ideology, let "physics" and "innovation" decide.

Because you believe 1,000 watts peak power is ideal in your scenario, but however new technology might demonstrate that 1,500 is ideal and in other words an 'arms race' repeatedly referred to on this thread.

As the boundaries of "physics" are pushed further (innovation) how long do you think it will be before legislators cotton on to the fact that manufactures are attempting to flout 'throttle' rules by constantly introducing higher peak power. Two different concepts, but related in terms of performance, right?

I could give you a million examples of how ideological "self-regulation" doesn't work in the real world, and this thread goes someways to explaining why.

 

[Astro66]

So you can't provide any mathematical theory behind what 'physics' actually means in relation to your previous claim.

The physics that might (or might not) demonstrate that in fact 1,500 watts peak power is the ideal scenario for an innovative shiny new engine engineers have just designed, but you don't actually know.

Because it's like "riding a kangaroo", right?

You have ducked the questions I asked, again, and you are again attempting to disguise your personal preference behind a science you refuse to explain technically but which you still quote anyway.

In one breath you unequivocably stated "physics" and "innovation" should decide, whatever that physics means, and now in the next breath you state let "engineers" decide instead.

You contradict yourself, because quite clearly engineers are already making broader decisions within a preexisting legislative framework, and not solely based on a laissez-faire, free market ideology, let "physics" and "innovation" decide.

Because you believe 1,000 watts peak power is ideal in your scenario, but however new technology might demonstrate that 1,500 is ideal and in other words an 'arms race' repeatedly referred to on this thread.

As the boundaries of "physics" are pushed further (innovation) how long do you think it will be before legislators cotton on to the fact that manufactures are attempting to flout 'throttle' rules by constantly introducing higher peak power. Two different concepts, but related in terms of performance, right?

I could give you a million examples of how ideological "self-regulation" doesn't work in the real world, and this thread goes someways to explaining why.

I provided the maths. But if you want more detail. No worries. Let's look at the Amflow

As clearly stated on the Amflow website. The motor is rated at 250 watts to comply with EU regulations.

So if it draws 1000 watts of power for an extended period. Physics determines energy is power multiplied by time. So both time and power are proportional to the energy produced. This energy will not just drive the wheels. It will also produce heat.

So the longer you run the motor above it's rated power. The longer you need to run it below it rated it power, to allow it to cool. The additional heat created by running the motor above it rated power needs time to dissipate.

So what you do is produce a power profile, that allows the motor to produce greater power in bursts. But those bursts cannot be to big or too long, because of the motors rating. The better you can shape that profile to match the cycling requirement. The better the bike will perform. But if you run with too high a peak power, the time required to dissipate the heat created by that peak, will mean you'll need to run with much lower power for much longer, to meet it's rated power. As I said Power and Time are proportional to energy, thus the heat.

So you cannot just produce unlimited peak power. There will be a limit where the power profile will become far too saw-tooth, producing surging. Hence my comment that physics will limit peak power.

I hope this is what you were looking for. Sorry about the kangaroo reference, but I thought it well described what would happen if you have too much peak power, in a motor that's not rated for it.

 

[ZR1]

In practice the regulation doesn't work like that

If it did 800wh batteries would probably last ~3hrs. You can drain a 800wh amflow in 1.5hrs easy, velomotion has some graphs showing thermal stability and all the big motors are at 80-90% of peak after 15mins

The 250w continous rule appears to be little more than putting a 250w rated sticker on the motors.

 

[irie]

This thread has largely become a competition the winner of which will be decided as whomsoever has the strongest sunshine on their shoes.

 

[Astro66]

You can drain a 800wh amflow in 1.5hrs easy,

Maybe a machine can. But I don't believe a human can. The power delivered by a human in a pedal stroke is not linear. There are parts of the stroke where you deliver much more power, and parts you deliver far less. The motor responds in the same way. That's why high cadence allow you to dissipate more overall energy, as you go through and remain in the power part of the cyclic stroke more often.

Anyway. All the more reason to leave the how the motor produces power to the experts.

Comply with motor continuous power. Comply with speed limit. Comply with motor cutout at speed. Leave the rest to the engineers building the motors, battery and EMTB systems.

 

[LeftItLancs]

I hope this is what you were looking for. Sorry about the kangaroo reference, but I thought it well described what would happen if you have too much peak power, in a motor that's not rated for it.

You are just repeating what you said earlier, which you read somewhere online, and moving the goal posts slightly each time, and while still avoiding my question.

You don't know what new technology and innovation is in the pipeline or what the "limit" of "physics" is with regard to future "peak power".

Because you believe that 1,000 watts is the limit because it suits your ideological stance.

 

[ZR1]

I demo'ed an amflow and took it from 100% to 11% in 1.5hrs

The velomotion tests are 250w input which although I probably couldn't do that for an hour plenty of fit riders/roadies will easily.

Comply with motor continuous power. Comply with speed limit. Comply with motor cutout at speed. Leave the rest to the engineers building the motors, battery and EMTB systems.

That's the crux of the thread, the regulations are loose enough that they can go for mega power. The old boys club had an agreement to not push it too far, new player comes in with a lighter, more powerful and slimmer battery and now the old boys club want the unwritten limits they were working to as hard limits