Bafang M500 and M600 motors

[thaeber]

That's what I (and I think @captainhightop ) already have. I'm not a fan of that remote and the screen is really crap in sunshine, not to mention that the underbar nature of the clamp has always felt a bit weird to me. I don't hate it, but I do feel like it could be better.

@thaeber that looks neat, but I still think that the buttons are in the wrong orientation, i.e. they should be horizontally placed rather than vertically. It's a bit like underbar dropper levers vs those weird ones that sit around the bar, with the latter being ergonomically rather awkward. Do we have any idea how much that's likely to cost?

I might have to do a bit of CAD to mockup (and 3d print and try out) some possible button layouts, though I can't help but feel that accomodating a brake lever, a dropper lever and 3 buttons might be rather challenging and I'm really not sure that I'm clever enough to work out how to do it!

True, the remote is kind of chunky. The display has a nice format and safe position slightly below the handlebar, I like that. The visibility is the problem. Yesterday I played around a little with the settings. I changed brightness to 75%, and AI Senitivity to „0“. Now the display does not adopt to change of light conditions and is bright enough to be visible, even when sunny. Big improvement.

 

[Hagbard]

@captainhightop Look at this:

Giant RideControl Ergo 3 control unit original Giant

Giant RideControl Ergo 3 &#9658 Minimalist handlebar control unit | for Giant e-bikes with RideControl GO & Smart Gateway (SG) &#9658 Buy now!

www.ebike24.com

6 pins out.....Interesting.....

 

[captainhightop]

@captainhightop Look at this:

Giant RideControl Ergo 3 control unit original Giant

Giant RideControl Ergo 3 &#9658 Minimalist handlebar control unit | for Giant e-bikes with RideControl GO & Smart Gateway (SG) &#9658 Buy now!

www.ebike24.com

6 pins out.....Interesting.....

Sounds promising, more so than the Shimano steps one, that looked like just 2 wires to me (DI2 I think they call it)
Also looks user serviceable with the screws on the side

 

[Puschtrale]

Sounds promising, more so than the Shimano steps one, that looked like just 2 wires to me (DI2 I think they call it)
Also looks user serviceable with the screws on the side

If there would be anyone that could work on the connector of the giant remote to be able to connect it with the dcp240 display I would definitly pull the trigger . Maybe someone could help me out?

 

[captainhightop]

If there would be anyone that could work on the connector of the giant remote to be able to connect it with the dcp240 display I would definitly pull the trigger . Maybe someone could help me out?

We could do with someone who has one of those switch units, who can disconnect it and check the wiring with a DVM for continuity when switches are pushed. Also although my tests looked favourable, I'm waiting on the HIGO connectors to properly verify my theory.

But if everything works out we could cut off the giant connector and add a HIGO! Not sure how long those are going to take from Aliexpress, but I've got a box full of different push switches to try out too.

 

[Puschtrale]

We could do with someone who has one of those switch units, who can disconnect it and check the wiring with a DVM for continuity when switches are pushed. Also although my tests looked favourable, I'm waiting on the HIGO connectors to properly verify my theory.

But if everything works out we could cut off the giant connector and add a HIGO! Not sure how long those are going to take from Aliexpress, but I've got a box full of different push switches to try out too.

Let me know if you have more information. I would definitly try it out with the giant remote ✌. Would be a great improvement

 

[Waynemarlow]

Over on ES there's quite a discussion going on re the switching of the start up and shut down of the M series motors, you may want to have a look in.

Bafang M500/M600 thread

Since this seems to be an interesting motor, why not have a separate topic for it? I'll start with three quotes I have found about the motor on this forum, feel free to add more information that you can find. Over the last couple of days I had heard that there had been reports of the M600...

endless-sphere.com

 

[captainhightop]

Over on ES there's quite a discussion going on re the switching of the start up and shut down of the M series motors, you may want to have a look in.

Bafang M500/M600 thread

Since this seems to be an interesting motor, why not have a separate topic for it? I'll start with three quotes I have found about the motor on this forum, feel free to add more information that you can find. Over the last couple of days I had heard that there had been reports of the M600...

endless-sphere.com

Looks there is also complete schematic for a HMI and display on there too using the nordic semi microcontroller:

The nRF52840 is a nice choice as it's small has bluetooth and ANT. Which means it may integrate with Garmin or other cycle computers, HR monitors etc.

At the moment, I'm concentrating on just the switch gear, but this design is pretty much what we've all been talking about long-term. I've got one of those SPI OLEDs and it's not a bad display at all, although keeping everything dry could be a challenge. I'm not sure how easy the Nordic board is to program compared to more mainstream boards (ESP32/NodeMCU etc.)

I tend to prefer the idea of hiding the electronics away and not having a display, just using the cycle computer via ant/bluetooth is my preference, but none of this circuit actually needs the display to work anyway.

Another massive benefit of making your own HMI and not using Bafang's DP C240 would be the opportunity change button functionality or add/remove buttons depending on your preferences.

 

[Waynemarlow]

My thoughts are to parallel in the above design less display, use the DP C241 as the base display ( its actually quite good, waterproof and discrete ) and use my Garmin as the main display for engine info ( ES also lists a way of creating your own App within the Garmin ) which combines all the motor functions + Nav in one unit.

For those of you who are slightly less firmware savy than I ( which is not much more than basic stuff ) the Nordic board is used to take the Bafang CAN signals and then broadcast them as ANT LEV which is what the Garmin understands, via bluetooth. There are a couple of other benefits as well such as you wouldn't need a BEEST tool to make changes to the Bafang firmware as the Nordic module will talk in both directions. Things such as On road / off road modes could be controlled by the Garmin.

Certainly keeping an eye on this development as the main character Casainho has taken the TSDZ2 engine ( plus quite a few others ) from being a cheap and cheerful engine to something thats not far behind the M series motors ( and in some ways ahead ). As soon as he has an engine in hand and stabilises the design / firmware, I will definately be in for a play.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Just a quick question,

零部件

Bafang description

bafang-e.com

Has anyone tried this display?

If not, no worries as I've ordered one as I'm sick and tired of using the Shimano Rip-off display without running a 35mm bar and stem combo.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Just a quick question,

零部件

Bafang description

bafang-e.com

Has anyone tried this display?

If not, no worries as I've ordered one as I'm sick and tired of using the Shimano Rip-off display without running a 35mm bar and stem combo.

Somewhere on this forum was a link to a German guy who had a 3D print of a small spacer that expanded the bar strap to account for the 35mm bar. Equally there used to be on EBay the spacer milled out of Ali.

Bafang DPC241 on 35mm bars

Seen as there is an issue with the clamp breaking if overtightened or not fitted with care does anyone have one fitted to 35mm bars without any problems - does the clamp fit well or does it need to be bent to accommodate the extra width?

www.emtbforums.com

 

[thaeber]

Somewhere on this forum was a link to a German guy who had a 3D print of a small spacer that expanded the bar strap to account for the 35mm bar. Equally there used to be on EBay the spacer milled out of Ali.

Bafang DPC241 on 35mm bars

Seen as there is an issue with the clamp breaking if overtightened or not fitted with care does anyone have one fitted to 35mm bars without any problems - does the clamp fit well or does it need to be bent to accommodate the extra width?

www.emtbforums.com

Not from Ebay mate. Handcrafted German Engineering!

 

[Kyokushin]

Guys, i have placed the M600 controller (with 15A limited firmware) to M500 and it feels stronger of course.
However i have switched the power output to Ampers and started look on it.

I am not sure which one of firmwares now are more torque required to get full power, my old 13A or new 15A on new controller, so i have two things for M600 users.
1) what is the most 'soft firmware' for M600?
2) could you try this 15A (CRX10NC4815i132020.8-20210924.bin ) firmware for M600 and tell me it require more torque than your standard 18A?
3) M500 and M600 have same torque sensor or its different?

 

[captainhightop]

Received the HIGO connectors today, and wasted no time in making a contraption to test my theory about the buttons:

Turns out, it works:
Initial voltage across pins 5 and 6 (pwr button) is 50V, but after power up, it's about 4.8V

So:
After powerup
PWR 4.8V
UP:3.3V
DOWN:4.8V
No idea why UP is different to the other two, but it still works as a simple switch going to zero when pressed like all the others

 

[Hagbard]

Nice! No sign of my cable yet, but the fact yours works is reassuring!

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I see. So your intending on using the stock controller but adapt the connectors.

Its plausible that this could work.

Keep us posted @captainhightop

 

[captainhightop]

I see. So your intending on using the stock controller but adapt the connectors.

Its plausible that this could work.

Keep us posted @captainhightop

Yes, initially my aim was to replace the button cluster with something lower profile (like the giant or specialized one), maybe design and print my own or just splice the cable into one of those.

Long-term I'm looking at the Nordic semiconductors microcontroller to replace the whole HMI on the bars, but that's a much harder job, although people are working on the CANBUS protocol already.

As it's got ANT and I think bluetooth, I'm hoping that I can use it to add panels to my cycle computer (for battery/RPM etc.) and only have that as a display on the bars with the microprocessor out of sight inside the bike frame (still have the buttons on the bars though).

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Yes, initially my aim was to replace the button cluster with something lower profile (like the giant or specialized one), maybe design and print my own or just splice the cable into one of those.

Long-term I'm looking at the Nordic semiconductors microcontroller to replace the whole HMI on the bars, but that's a much harder job, although people are working on the CANBUS protocol already.

As it's got ANT and I think bluetooth, I'm hoping that I can use it to add panels to my cycle computer (for battery/RPM etc.) and only have that as a display on the bars with the microprocessor out of sight inside the bike frame (still have the buttons on the bars though).

Fair enough.

I'm speaking with someone also in an effort to adapt the communication protocol from CANBus to something else (maybe UART or something along those lines). My enquiries has revealed that all signs point to the controller (or swapping it out). My issue is that I'd rather not run an external controller.

Makes it look a bit ugly and adds another point of vulnerability.

Still, it's nice to know that I'm not alone in trying to adapt older displays to run on the newer bafang motors.

 

[Hagbard]

Still, it's nice to know that I'm not alone in trying to adapt older displays to run on the newer bafang motors.

I don't think that's the point at all. The idea is to build our own display and buttons, with either improvement ergonomics (in the case of the buttons) or improved capabilites, such as the ability to integrate with a garmin watch, in the case of the display. Going from CANBus to UART seems a little regressive, though it does make sense if your motivation is to use UART displays.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I don't think that's the point at all. The idea is to build our own display and buttons, with either improvement ergonomics (in the case of the buttons) or improved capabilites, such as the ability to integrate with a garmin watch, in the case of the display. Going from CANBus to UART seems a little regressive, though it does make sense if your motivation is to use UART displays.

Hmmm!!
Food for thought.

Although one does ask the question, why not wait for a well known third party developer to build the display?

Eggrider comes to mind as they've pretty much covered alot of non-mainstream ebike motor brands.

 

[Kyokushin]

CAN is imo huge disadvantabe. With uart you can do everything, with can - nothing as we can see here, at least no one did.

Thats the most wanted feature we dont have in M500/M600. To remove a limit and enable/disable throttle at one click.

 

[Hagbard]

Hmmm!!
Food for thought.

Although one does ask the question, why not wait for a well known third party developer to build the display?

Eggrider comes to mind as they've pretty much covered alot of non-mainstream ebike motor brands.

I guess for 2 reasons:

1) Fun
2) It feels like the m500/600 series of motors have been superceded now so the odds of a third party undertaking any significant development on this old platform feels low.

It does still feel like there's loads of potential to still be unlocked with these motors, and as knowledge matures (which it's currently doing at a fantastic rate) we'll see some pretty interesting things.

 

[rtp]

Hmmm!!
Food for thought.

Although one does ask the question, why not wait for a well known third party developer to build the display?

Eggrider comes to mind as they've pretty much covered alot of non-mainstream ebike motor brands.

Lol - as it is, a well known manufacturer (Bafang) can’t even get basic things right, or release displays and control pads actually suitable for riding. ‘Wait’ may be a loong wait, and no guarantees what they think someone wants - actually is.
Why did you build your own E22 (ok, other than for YT subs), and why not just wait for a well-known third party to just build the bike you want?

Hope you get the point… information is useful and lets people build what they want.

The Eggrider is neat, although not everyone wants an SW102 with custom firmware on it. The Giant control pad to me, is near perfection, and at least seems a much more robust solution vs the ‘dangling bits’ on the DP C240 controls.

RE: displays - people have widely differening desires there. Some want a tablet-sized display with all possible sensors being read, some want absolutely minimal. Some want integrated into the bike’s frame, others are fine with it above or below the bars. Pretty unlikely for a ‘well-known third party‘ to scratch all of those itches…

Even if EggRider does come out with an ER for CAN motors, it’s questionable as to if any additional configuration will be accessible, unless they are well beyond where the guys on ES and OpenEbike Firmware github projects are in decoding the CAN commands, which last I checked (been a few, possible more progress has been made) was more or less the one-time settings - wheel diameter and I think top speed? It’s an undertaking…at least short of building a replacement controller (like e.g. the Luna LudiV2 VESC - for BBHSD, M600 now - seems a matter of time before M620, M500 - if they decide to ever sell separately, or the Innotrace - which US buyers are locked out of due to WattWagons exclusive but inability to deliver..).

I’ll gladly take any steps <forward> which Capt, Hagbard and others seem to be making awesome progress on.

 

[rtp]

I guess for 2 reasons:

1) Fun
2) It feels like the m500/600 series of motors have been superceded now so the odds of a third party undertaking any significant development on this old platform feels low.

It does still feel like there's loads of potential to still be unlocked with these motors, and as knowledge matures (which it's currently doing at a fantastic rate) we'll see some pretty interesting things.

RE: Superceded - you mean by the M510 and <something else, maybe I missed, a new M6** series?>

Totally agree on knowledge maturing.
I have to say as a US-born ‘power hungry’ car and motorcycle fanatic, over time I had already adjusted on vehicles to - insane power is neat and addictive, but I also like to turn/have handling, so moved from muscle cars to forced induction Miatas of all things, and never looked back.

On ebikes - I had a BBHSD, and tired of the ‘let’s go 15 miles (max) on throttle and high assistance’ pretty quickly and was normally riding it in PAS 2 (of 9) for most trail riding, then moved on to an M600 (Ludi V2/VESC controller). I usually ride it in PAS 2 of 9, non-Ludi Trail mode (LudiV2 controller has 3 profiles for max power, throttle sensitivity etc., where max power is what you get at top PAS level, e.g. 3 of 3, 5 of 5, 9 of 9), quite happily.

I recently rented an M500 in Prague, and was expecting to be sorely underwhelmed, but I have to say, it did alright, and I rode mostly in PAS 2-3 of 9, doing a 50km ride. I certainly bumped it up higher more than on my M600 for similar riding, but it wasn’t all bad. If I wanted a motorcycle, well I have those as well, and while I think the EU speed/power restrictions are nonsensical, I can say I don’t routinely need e.g. an M620 or > 1kW peak power.

I’d be rather happy if we could source <not from Bafang> all parts to keep M500/600s running ourselves for years to come, while I think the real benefits to come are mostly around the controller programming and software. Granularity/number of breakpoints for torque sensor output, modes like ‘emtb’ on non-Bafang motors, and the ability to adjust settings sanely for things like rider weight and style of riding, without being locked into e.g. Bafang only batteries and such - would be a pretty decent foreseeable future to me.

Interestingly the LudiV2 already has a gyro build-in, and I know some brand or another was making some fuss over an ‘angle sensor’ although I’m not sure exactly how their programming used it - am guessing it was simplistic and perhaps just boosting assistance on steep uphills or something?

Given custom controllers with a couple of GPIO ports, additional sensors can be added (or upgraded), while BLE/BT can connect to more comprehensive ‘displays’ or for tuning/adjustments, etc. Better yet, with open source firmware, there’s at least a chance to improve the same hardware’s functionality and performance over time.

One thing I am hoping for is subsequent Bafang motors keep the same mounts, at least giving a path to replacement, but also in that the form factor for controllers remains somewhat constant - PCB layout and testing is time/$-consuming already, but given the same form factor, unless there’s a truly revolutionary overhaul, it may be possible to e.g. have a single (aftermarket or open source) controller capable of working for M500/510/600/<next> which would certainly benefit us all.

 

[Hagbard]

RE: Superceded - you mean by the M510 and <something else, maybe I missed, a new M6** series?>

I was primarily talking about the M510, no doubt there's an M610 on the way.

Rapid obsolescence is one of the risks when buying a non-mainstream solution, particularly of Chinese origin and particularly in a field that is undergoing a huge upsurge in both popularity and progress. It's unfortunate that a more open source ethos doesn't tend to come with such products, but great that such things also tend to attract people with a more techy mindset, who are happy to tear them to pieces in the pursuit of making them better,or in my case, breaking them...!

 

[Kyokushin]

RE: Superceded - you mean by the M510 and <something else, maybe I missed, a new M6** series?>

Totally agree on knowledge maturing.
I have to say as a US-born ‘power hungry’ car and motorcycle fanatic, over time I had already adjusted on vehicles to - insane power is neat and addictive, but I also like to turn/have handling, so moved from muscle cars to forced induction Miatas of all things, and never looked back.

On ebikes - I had a BBHSD, and tired of the ‘let’s go 15 miles (max) on throttle and high assistance’ pretty quickly and was normally riding it in PAS 2 (of 9) for most trail riding, then moved on to an M600 (Ludi V2/VESC controller). I usually ride it in PAS 2 of 9, non-Ludi Trail mode (LudiV2 controller has 3 profiles for max power, throttle sensitivity etc., where max power is what you get at top PAS level, e.g. 3 of 3, 5 of 5, 9 of 9), quite happily.

I recently rented an M500 in Prague, and was expecting to be sorely underwhelmed, but I have to say, it did alright, and I rode mostly in PAS 2-3 of 9, doing a 50km ride. I certainly bumped it up higher more than on my M600 for similar riding, but it wasn’t all bad. If I wanted a motorcycle, well I have those as well, and while I think the EU speed/power restrictions are nonsensical, I can say I don’t routinely need e.g. an M620 or > 1kW peak power.

I’d be rather happy if we could source <not from Bafang> all parts to keep M500/600s running ourselves for years to come, while I think the real benefits to come are mostly around the controller programming and software. Granularity/number of breakpoints for torque sensor output, modes like ‘emtb’ on non-Bafang motors, and the ability to adjust settings sanely for things like rider weight and style of riding, without being locked into e.g. Bafang only batteries and such - would be a pretty decent foreseeable future to me.

Interestingly the LudiV2 already has a gyro build-in, and I know some brand or another was making some fuss over an ‘angle sensor’ although I’m not sure exactly how their programming used it - am guessing it was simplistic and perhaps just boosting assistance on steep uphills or something?

Given custom controllers with a couple of GPIO ports, additional sensors can be added (or upgraded), while BLE/BT can connect to more comprehensive ‘displays’ or for tuning/adjustments, etc. Better yet, with open source firmware, there’s at least a chance to improve the same hardware’s functionality and performance over time.

One thing I am hoping for is subsequent Bafang motors keep the same mounts, at least giving a path to replacement, but also in that the form factor for controllers remains somewhat constant - PCB layout and testing is time/$-consuming already, but given the same form factor, unless there’s a truly revolutionary overhaul, it may be possible to e.g. have a single (aftermarket or open source) controller capable of working for M500/510/600/<next> which would certainly benefit us all.

I put m600 controller to m500. 1.1kW peak, still legit, still working in my daily riding.

 

[Waynemarlow]

I was primarily talking about the M510, no doubt there's an M610 on the way.

Rapid obsolescence is one of the risks when buying a non-mainstream solution, particularly of Chinese origin and particularly in a field that is undergoing a huge upsurge in both popularity and progress.

Aren’t you being a bit unkind on Bafang. The M600 has been about for nearly 4 years, there’s a good supply of parts, theres still a good supply of motors. How many major brands of EBike still retain a 4 year old design as their main product and still offer parts backup. Taking it to the extreme how old is the BBS02 motor, still available and parts are plentiful.

Sure you are going to get refinements such as the M510 but wasn’t that more to do with the M500 not being competitive with the latest Bosch / Shimano motors and to break into the main stream markets, then manufacturers such as Forestal needed to be fed with better upgraded motors.

 

[Hagbard]

Aren’t you being a bit unkind on Bafang.

Yes, possibly! However, they've missed the ball on so many occasions where they could actually have got ahead of the competition. The hardware is great, but their software offerings all feel like an afterthought, or a half completed student project.

If either they (or at this stage, we) manage to open up the software platform then I think some really great stuff will come of it. Even if it's just the simple matter of having a more ergonomic set of buttons, or the ability to use those already made by a different manufacturer.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Lol - as it is, a well known manufacturer (Bafang) can’t even get basic things right, or release displays and control pads actually suitable for riding. ‘Wait’ may be a loong wait, and no guarantees what they think someone wants - actually is.
Why did you build your own E22 (ok, other than for YT subs), and why not just wait for a well-known third party to just build the bike you want?

Hope you get the point… information is useful and lets people build what they want.

The Eggrider is neat, although not everyone wants an SW102 with custom firmware on it. The Giant control pad to me, is near perfection, and at least seems a much more robust solution vs the ‘dangling bits’ on the DP C240 controls.

RE: displays - people have widely differening desires there. Some want a tablet-sized display with all possible sensors being read, some want absolutely minimal. Some want integrated into the bike’s frame, others are fine with it above or below the bars. Pretty unlikely for a ‘well-known third party‘ to scratch all of those itches…

Even if EggRider does come out with an ER for CAN motors, it’s questionable as to if any additional configuration will be accessible, unless they are well beyond where the guys on ES and OpenEbike Firmware github projects are in decoding the CAN commands, which last I checked (been a few, possible more progress has been made) was more or less the one-time settings - wheel diameter and I think top speed? It’s an undertaking…at least short of building a replacement controller (like e.g. the Luna LudiV2 VESC - for BBHSD, M600 now - seems a matter of time before M620, M500 - if they decide to ever sell separately, or the Innotrace - which US buyers are locked out of due to WattWagons exclusive but inability to deliver..).

I’ll gladly take any steps <forward> which Capt, Hagbard and others seem to be making awesome progress on.

You've made your point. And rather than for me to 'defend' my rationale behind building up the E22 frameset, I'll simply say "To each is own!!".

As for your choice of wording 'moving forward', I'm reminded that some (if not many) ebike owners are reluctant to crack open a motor and perform general maintenance. Yet you seem convinced that 'everyone' will be eager to build a DIY display which 'may' involve complex wiring beyond the scope of new-comer ebike owners who 'chooses' to go with the bafang system.

I'll reserve judgement and I wish captainhightop and anyone else who wishes to 'commit' to advancing of a better display interfaces, the best of luck and pray that they succeed. But clearly 'I' (someone who has had years of experience messing around with numerous bafang motors and communication protocols), seeks to achieve an outcome which others can do by means of plug-n-play.

Whilst I've refrained from providing any information about advancements of bafang motors (beyond the conventional programming, teardown, rebuild tooling, adapting and providing sources native to one's location), I feel no need to convince others as to my resourcefulness (or my vast intricate knowledge of THE ENTIRE CATALOGUE of bafang motors including those which have yet to have surfaced.

But like I said, "To each his own!!!"

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

It does still feel like there's loads of potential to still be unlocked with these motors, and as knowledge matures (which it's currently doing at a fantastic rate) we'll see some pretty interesting things.

We will. I guarantee it