Haibike FLYON, 120Nm motor, 630Wh battery with quick charge

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Kiwi in Wales said:
When @Rob Hancill visited them last month I believe he was told June, if it has now moved again that sort of implies they have production challenges which is a real shame. I can see loads of people cancelling their pre orders now ☹️
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Surprised there's any surprise with delays. Common for many interbike-announced bikes to arrive mid-year - and a 1-2 month delay is nothing unusual.
 
"a 1-2 month delay is nothing unusual."

I count six months at best but that is not unusual in the bike industry either and sometimes they never come to pass. It's important that they get it right based on some of the new model issues showing up with other brands.

It does amaze me the sheer amount of models that Haibike has available every model year. Although many share components coming out with a new motor is about as technical as it gets with an eBike and a whole new set of SKU's.

Personally I think that the 2170 battery is more significant than the motor. Not sure about 10A charge because the specs I have seen on 5000mah cells, including the BMZ ones they are licensing from LG that I think are speced on these models, are 8A at most and really only useful for a quick top up during the day otherwise you are greatly decreasing battery life charging at high A all the time as has been discussed many times here and elsewhere. You could dump 7 or 8ah's in your battery in a one hour once in awhile whereas you can't do that with 18650 cells.

The higher C rate is the key though for both power and energy density. Basically at any given amount of watts being used the 2170 battery will be under less stress than the 18650's. They won't be a huge improvement but I feel significant enough that they will become more prominent for 2020 models across the board.

Cost per cell is not all that significant when you consider the 30-50 cells that it takes to build an eBike battery and it takes less 2170 cells to make the same wh as an 18650 battery and only cost slightly more per cell so in reality they are not much more $$ but I am sure the manufacturers will charge a premium up front to cover the cost of development and engineering.
 
Mabman said:
"a 1-2 month delay is nothing unusual."

I count six months at best but that is not unusual in the bike industry either and sometimes they never come to pass. It's important that they get it right based on some of the new model issues showing up with other brands.

It does amaze me the sheer amount of models that Haibike has available every model year. Although many share components coming out with a new motor is about as technical as it gets with an eBike and a whole new set of SKU's.

Personally I think that the 2170 battery is more significant than the motor. Not sure about 10A charge because the specs I have seen on 5000mah cells, including the BMZ ones they are licensing from LG that I think are speced on these models, are 8A at most and really only useful for a quick top up during the day otherwise you are greatly decreasing battery life charging at high A all the time as has been discussed many times here and elsewhere. You could dump 7 or 8ah's in your battery in a one hour once in awhile whereas you can't do that with 18650 cells.

The higher C rate is the key though for both power and energy density. Basically at any given amount of watts being used the 2170 battery will be under less stress than the 18650's. They won't be a huge improvement but I feel significant enough that they will become more prominent for 2020 models across the board.

Cost per cell is not all that significant when you consider the 30-50 cells that it takes to build an eBike battery and it takes less 2170 cells to make the same wh as an 18650 battery and only cost slightly more per cell so in reality they are not much more $$ but I am sure the manufacturers will charge a premium up front to cover the cost of development and engineering.
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I've had a closer look at the 21700 Samsung 48G 10A cell. It's 67.5g, and the 18650 Samsung 35E 8A cell is 50g. A 500Wh battery would be:
21700 - Capacity: 30*3,6*4,8=518Wh - Weight: 30*67.5g=2.025g - Density: 0,256Wh/g
18650 - Capacity 40*3,6*3,5=504Wh - Weight: 40*45g=2.000g - Density: 0,252Wh/g

The energy density isn't much better at all. The 21700 is a 3p configuration, 10A*3=30A, the 18650 is 4p, 8A*4=32A. Sure the 21700 has other advantages, BMZ expects the 21700 batteries will have significantly improved lifespan.

I guess I shouldn't overlook the LG M50
21700 - Capacity: 30*3,6*5=540Wh - Weight: 30*69=2.070g - Density: 0,261Wh/g

The M50 looks slightly better, but LG claims 1.5C and 7.5A in it's data sheet. In a 3p config that's 7,5A*3=22,5A. People do pull 10A from this cell, but chances are that will take it's toll on lifespan.
 
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Being US based my primary interest is in the 48-52v battery. Not that they don't apply elsewhere they are more popular here due to our more generous watt allowance of 750w. I made this up earlier this summer while starting research into a 2170 battery design that would retrofit to the largest amount of bikes on the ground here in the US using 48v systems, think RAD and Sondors, as their original batteries are about the spec as the model used here but in 13s4p configs. The 2170 battery is the LG 5A version licensed by BMZ.

Screen Shot 2018-07-11 at 12.24.33 AM.png


Higher discharge rates and faster charge rates for sometime use are desireable I feel for eBikes. The industry is moving in the 2170 direction so might as well go with the flow I feel as long as they work in the real world environment of eBiking.

To that end I have a battery on the way that is 14s4p, or 52v/15ah/780wh on paper for trials here. It is made of Samsung 50E cells and the case is a new version of the popular HL type battery in use world wide. I prefer a 52v battery but all findings should extrapolate to 36 and 48v systems.

f6b06269-791a-4f2c-ba64-02cf208c9559-original.jpeg

fb3c600d-2025-45d5-99b6-bdb79fa6fe1c-original.jpeg/

I will be able to use this battery on my eMTB as well as my eRoad bikes in terrain and conditions familiar to me and see how it performs which to me is going to be the test period and the best part, riding. Also have access to a full battery testing facility that it will visit to be able to chart it's performance. So between the two it should show if there is anything to gain going forward with the 2170 format.
 
Mabman said:
Being US based my primary interest is in the 48-52v battery. Not that they don't apply elsewhere they are more popular here due to our more generous watt allowance of 750w. I made this up earlier this summer while starting research into a 2170 battery design that would retrofit to the largest amount of bikes on the ground here in the US using 48v systems, think RAD and Sondors, as their original batteries are about the spec as the model used here but in 13s4p configs. The 2170 battery is the LG 5A version licensed by BMZ.

View attachment 7221

Higher discharge rates and faster charge rates for sometime use are desireable I feel for eBikes. The industry is moving in the 2170 direction so might as well go with the flow I feel as long as they work in the real world environment of eBiking.

To that end I have a battery on the way that is 14s4p, or 52v/15ah/780wh on paper for trials here. It is made of Samsung 50E cells and the case is a new version of the popular HL type battery in use world wide. I prefer a 52v battery but all findings should extrapolate to 36 and 48v systems.

View attachment 7223

View attachment 7222/

I will be able to use this battery on my eMTB as well as my eRoad bikes in terrain and conditions familiar to me and see how it performs which to me is going to be the test period and the best part, riding. Also have access to a full battery testing facility that it will visit to be able to chart it's performance. So between the two it should show if there is anything to gain going forward with the 2170 format.
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I'm not too into the progress and development of cells, so every time I wonder what the future holds, I can't find any insightful answer (: I've been hoping to see larger 18650 8A+ cells, but it seems to have stopped with 3500mAh. E-bike batteries with those cells have been around for some 2 years now!? Focus is running 10s3p batteries with 3500mAh cells (378Wh). I'm guessing they use 8A cells. The discharge current of 24A seems to be good enough for a 250W nominal motor. There has been some rumors of 3900mAh 18650 cells. In 10s3p that would result in a battery of about 2kg and 421Wh. I believe that will do for my riding, and I'll take that 500gr of weight reduction. Have you heard anything about what's next for the 18650 cell? From a weight saving point of view I'm not too excited about the current 21700 cells. To get a proper lightweight battery from the 21700 cells one would have to go 10s2p, with 10A cells that's a 20A battery, and I think that won't cut it.

It seems you have very different requirements for a battery compared to me. Building that battery from 91 cells sounds like quite a job. With that cell count, going to 21700 will save a whole lot of soldering. Those 2200mAh cells does have a pretty awful energy density though. An 18650 Samsung 35E 8A cell does have about the same energy density as the 21700 Samsung 48G 10A cell. But if we get 21700 6500mAh 13A cells in a year or two, then I'm ready to embrace it and get my 10s2p 470Wh battery (: Not getting my hopes up though, as the same chemistry can be used in both cells!?!

Oh and BTW, Giant is doing 6A charging up to 60% on it's 10s4p 18650 500Wh battery now.
 
14x4 is 56 cells for the 52v/15ah/780 watt battery, not sure where the 91 cell you mention is arrived at?

I think as time goes on you will find that there are going to be quite a few people figuring out just what wh battery works best for their needs. I have been using 520wh 52v batteries for awhile but if I just want to charge to 85% for extending battery life then going to the larger wh battery makes sense as I will gain over 30% more wh's which at that point I think I will be in my zone based on my experiences to date.

Time will tell.
 
Crusher said:
Surprised there's any surprise with delays. Common for many interbike-announced bikes to arrive mid-year - and a 1-2 month delay is nothing unusual.
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It is 5 to 6 months and that would be enough for me to cancel my pre order if I had one. By the time these models arrive it will be nearly a year after it was first announced which for me personally, is too long to wait when there are a number of other brands announcing and actually delivering their 2019 models in a more timely manner which meets ‘my’ personal expectations. I am sure the Flyon is going to be a great bike but I would rather be riding a physically available 2019 bike now and not have to wait until June or possibly later to do so.
Everyone has a choice and some will be more than happy to wait. I am not one of those people.
 
Mabman said:
14x4 is 56 cells for the 52v/15ah/780 watt battery, not sure where the 91 cell you mention is arrived at?

I think as time goes on you will find that there are going to be quite a few people figuring out just what wh battery works best for their needs. I have been using 520wh 52v batteries for awhile but if I just want to charge to 85% for extending battery life then going to the larger wh battery makes sense as I will gain over 30% more wh's which at that point I think I will be in my zone based on my experiences to date.

Time will tell.
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The chart on the left in your post #126 mentions 91 cell count
 
Where are they measuring this torque?
A electric toothbrush motor could make 120nm if you geared it down enough.
 
Great to finally see one of these bikes being ridden.

I bet anyone with a current pre order is getting very very excited after watching this (y)
 
Awesome, look forward to checking the Flyon out at Current e-bikes in Santa Cruz this summer. Gonna be pricey!
 
Good toe see that you can take the battery out without flipping bike over.
 
R120 said:
Good toe see that you can take the battery out without flipping bike over.
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Yep - they seem to have thought through a lot of stuff there trying to get things right for the rider (cabling, controls, app etc).
 
Ron said:
Awesome, look forward to checking the Flyon out at Current e-bikes in Santa Cruz this summer. Gonna be pricey!
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Looks like it might be more like 2020 here in the US. Copied from a US site and put out by Larry Pizzi President and Head of Sales for Accell Group North America:

"Attached is an update on the availability of the new Haibike FLYON Series, in the form of a brief frequently asked questions FAQ, along with the introductory press kit on the EU introduction. Because of the long lead-time to revise and prepare the drive and battery pack system for US and Canadian compliance to standards and top speed, the North American introduction will be delayed from the Fall of 2019 to early 2020. We ask that you kindly share this information with your readers to help us alleviate any confusion for our customers in North America. Should you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to let me know."
 
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