losgatosgtr
Well-known member
Should the RC:FC ratio be calculated at sag?
Velduro Rogue 170/165 mullet Enduro with DJI
- Thread starter Nomadic Dad
- Start date
losgatosgtr
Well-known member
This graph seems to be missing the brown and pink line or am I just color blind?You can also find the detailed wheel axle travel path here (source: THE VELDURO ROGUE)
(yes, this was posted before but it's becoming an FAQ in this thread
View attachment 172812
Also what Rogue flip chip setting are most planning on riding most of the time? For me, without having a bike to test, I would most likely ride standard on the progressive chip and use a mullet set up.
losgatosgtr
Well-known member
Please provide some pics of your build concerning anything special you have done like the silicon, tape, etc. It will help us with our future builds.
rabitec
New Member
Yes, they are missing because they are (I think) the same (pink=turquoise and purple=blue). The flip chip position at the base of the shock AFAICT does not change the geometry of the rear axle through its movement across the high point pivot, hence the perfect overlap.
I test rode an early production medium mullet with 170mm travel with chip in progressive mode - for me it was perfect. Extremely sensitive, feeling bottomless and I didn't have the problem Rob reported of substantial amount of travel being left unused. It was love at first ride for me
I think progressive vs not choice will likely depend mostly on type of rear shock (its linearity/progressivity).
As to 29 vs 27.5 - I am sold with the mullet idea - I found the rear end so playful.
As to quieter motor and longer CS for bigger frames - both may be coming at some point next year according to rumors (especially the first one).
I find the Crestline solution with CNC aluminum dropouts of different lengths simply brilliant: it's very expensive for a company with small volumes and aggressive pricing (such as Velduro) to have multiple molds for different chainstays.
losgatosgtr
Well-known member
Thank you for your insight. I appreciate it. If you don’t mind, what are your measurements, height, leg inseam? What e-bike and size are you riding now? Things like that. It will help with settling on a medium or large frame. I think I’m going medium as I’m one 178 cm tall with an 80 cm inseam.Yes, they are missing because they are (I think) the same (pink=turquoise and purple=blue). The flip chip position at the base of the shock AFAICT does not change the geometry of the rear axle through its movement across the high point pivot, hence the perfect overlap.
I test rode an early production medium mullet with 170mm travel with chip in progressive mode - for me it was perfect. Extremely sensitive, feeling bottomless and I didn't have the problem Rob reported of substantial amount of travel being left unused. It was love at first ride for me
I think progressive vs not choice will likely depend mostly on type of rear shock (its linearity/progressivity).
As to 29 vs 27.5 - I am sold with the mullet idea - I found the rear end so playful.
As to quieter motor and longer CS for bigger frames - both may be coming at some point next year according to rumors (especially the first one).
I find the Crestline solution with CNC aluminum dropouts of different lengths simply brilliant: it's very expensive for a company with small volumes and aggressive pricing (such as Velduro) to have multiple molds for different chainstays.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
i‘d say so, as it is way longer than a low pivot chainstay which usually only grows by a few mm before shortening again deeper in the travel
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
Should the RC:FC ratio be calculated at sag? - I've been thinking about this too. I'm not so sure it should be. When we ride, of course we moving the suspension a lot, and we will travel at sag and way beyond that on a ton of the ride.
But, we are still in many situations that we are unweighted / less than 30% sag when riding. Popping over roots, jumps, whatever.
When this happens and we are unsagged, our rear lever point (the rear wheel) is still part of the FC:RC ratio, and can touch down further forward than a longer CS, which in turn effects the balance of the bike and the way it behaves.
I see the sagged chainstay measurement as just another data point to guide us on bike geometry. My crestline (not a High Pivot) also has a rearward axle path, not as aggressive as the Velduro, but still has a decent amount of growth at sag point.
If we start measing FC:RC at sag point, then we must also consider the fork is also sagged, further changing the FC:RC ratio.
Finally, bike geo charts are also just a guide.
Crestline axle path
Last edited:
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
do you have longer arms? i.e. problems when buying shirts?
rabitec
New Member
...Are you my secret twin brother?
I am 177.5 tall and 80 inseam.
I tested the medium and felt it a bit a bit short compared to the other bikes I ride:
- Orbea Rise 2023 M20 - size L
- Yeti SB6 2019 size L (too big for me - my mistake)
- Specialized Turbo Levo Fattie 2017 size L
- Lapierre Spicy 2013 size L (also a bit too big for me)
So this is the first time I am going medium.
Based on my calcs (I measured the insertion length of the bike - matches what Velduro reports on the website) I will be able to use a 210cm One Up dropper with 155cm cranks and still have 0.5-1cm of tolerance. With Crestline RH3 I would have likely had to drop to 180 or shim the 210 substantially.
With the saddle slammed all the way down the seat tube the bike feels too small (you can't really pedal and it's hard to find the saddle to rest) and the rear wheel would hit my bum occasionally. But it's a safety net for very steep stuff that I'd rather have for very steep stuff and something I have been missing a lot on my Yeti.
Also the bike I rode had 35mm stem and I will be riding 50mm which I prefer as it quiets down the front end itchiness.
I hope this gives you a good idea whether size M is ok for you!
rabitec
New Member
...I think we should reason about RC:FC at both points instead of just one.
"At sag" measurement (or beyond - say ~50%) is imho important e.g. when cornering at speed. And the fact that the fork compresses shortens the FC even further while RC is extended... So completely different setup from bike with no sag at all (which is why maybe I often find myself unconsciously moving my CG a little bit backwards in these situations).
I come from a 4 link bike which has FAR less rear wheel travel so for me I think the difference in behaviour will be noticeable and something important to consider.
losgatosgtr
Well-known member
Thanks again I appreciate the insight. Yes I’m kind of leading towards a medium frame. I’m thinking a longer dropper as well around 200 mm or so as opposed to a 175 mm or so if I went with a large frame....Are you my secret twin brother?
I am 177.5 tall and 80 inseam.
I tested the medium and felt it a bit a bit short compared to the other bikes I ride:
- Orbea Rise 2023 M20 - size L
- Yeti SB6 2019 size L (too big for me - my mistake)
- Specialized Turbo Levo Fattie 2017 size L
- Lapierre Spicy 2013 size L (also a bit too big for me)
So this is the first time I am going medium.
Based on my calcs (I measured the insertion length of the bike - matches what Velduro reports on the website) I will be able to use a 210cm One Up dropper with 155cm cranks and still have 0.5-1cm of tolerance. With Crestline RH3 I would have likely had to drop to 180 or shim the 210 substantially.
With the saddle slammed all the way down the seat tube the bike feels too small (you can't really pedal and it's hard to find the saddle to rest) and the rear wheel would hit my bum occasionally. But it's a safety net for very steep stuff that I'd rather have for very steep stuff and something I have been missing a lot on my Yeti.
Also the bike I rode had 35mm stem and I will be riding 50mm which I prefer as it quiets down the front end itchiness.
I hope this gives you a good idea whether size M is ok for you!
Just as a data point, I've found bikes with around 1.8 f/r ratios to shine in looser, more low traction conditions. Particularly unsupported corners. You notice less of a difference in high traction soils with good supported corners.
I'll actually go as far as changing the dropouts on my dreadnought from 450mm to 460mm, and then to 470mm as the season here progresses towards loose over hardpack, dry conditions in the late summer/fall.
Adjustable chainstays for the win.
Alex NZ
Member
Custom built ‘Red Rogue’ just got it yesterday, Marzocci Super Z 38mm grip x damper, ext Aria, carbon wheels, axs etc. going to do first ride today, size large and I’m 190cm but have 75mm rise bars with short steerer, and also 50mm stem.
Alex NZ
Member
Got the dimensions and logo files from velduro and used a cricut machine to cut them out with a friend
Filth_88
New Member
Nice build mate, built to rip.
As your around the same height as me and on a large, can you let me know how you find the handling when you get out on it. Especially the shorter CS in combination with the longer front centre.
panaphonic
Member
Your flip chip is set to 29er but it looks like you have a 27.5 rear wheel?
Alex NZ
Member
Thanks
Seems that Rob was right in his review, I did find the front wanted to wash out in some corners, I’ll mess with what I can to compensate, I like an upright riding position (hence the bars), and it felt nice and confident downhill, playful, jumped super well! However, with corners I was changing what was a normal riding position for me relative to what I’ve had in the past, the only corners I could rip were like carpeted or well packed, anything loose was sketchy and I was very consciously loading the front. Only short ride so will see what happens over time!Alex NZ
Member
I checked the manual, flip chip for 27.5 is screw at the rear, though yeah you’re right the workshop must’ve flipped the sides around when assembling as it says it’s in 29er position on both sides.
Speed the rebound up. It will keep the tyre in contact with rough ground better.
Thanks
Keep us in the loop on this please. What tires are you on as well?
The numbers matter but some bikes just do this more than others I've noticed even if the numbers are right.
Should quickly measure a few things before swapping that chip. If your in 29er mode now, well swapping to MX mode will help a lot as it's too slack and leaned back at the moment.
Fun fact: I've ran my last 2 bikes with a 29" rear wheel, with the flip chip in the MX position, making them steeper and more tall. I really prefer them like this!
Filth_88
New Member
Cheers for the information.Thanks
What geometry changes could rectify that somewhat - I wonder if steepening the HA a bit would help?
Keep us posted mate.
Alex NZ
Member
Running new magic Mary radial with gravity soft rear, and trail super soft up front
After today I’ve contemplated running 29er and putting it in Mx position!
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
the geo i’m leaning into atm, with a 1° works compontens headset and a 594mm long fork, would result in a 1.82 fc:rc ratio at sag (+10mm cs)
I would not want a 65' HTA on a bike like this.
You'll gain more traction up front dropping the fork to a 180mm anyways.
I think the M1 will be identical & the M2 will be the upgrade. It'll be quiet, more efficient, more powerful & only slightly heavier.
I think the Crestline V2 will come with this motor, otherwise Troyden wouldn't be able to say that it'll be quiet.
I'd just drop the bar height, go to a 50mm stem, and ride that front wheel like it's 2018.
You know, the Rogue is basically a carbon copy of the Norco Sight/ Range VLT with the latter using a Bosch system instead. If they offered a frame (or even cheap build) of the Norco with a CX-R, a 600w battery and a matching skinny downtube, I'd buy it right now. Alas, the search continues.
I've tried to buy a Rogue in the USA and they pointed me to a Canadian distributor, which would currently mean a 30% tariff, meaning no savings over, well anything really.
I've tried to buy a Rogue in the USA and they pointed me to a Canadian distributor, which would currently mean a 30% tariff, meaning no savings over, well anything really.
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