New Pole EMTB with Maxon Air in Production (Hiisi)

slickrock

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So it appears that Leo is finally taking covers off what he's been working on and more importantly perhaps a reveal of the resurrected Pole brand itself. In some ways, what we see here is not that surprising if one has been following the Pole FB group and YT vids and his clear obsession with the Maxon motor. He had clearly stated that he wanted to put the Maxon into his Sonni, and based this glimpse it appears that that is exactly what he did. I do like the look of the bike overall, and appreciate the more, ahem, androgynous/neutered profile of this bike compared to the Sonni. The sharp bend where the downtube meets the motor is characteristic of motors where the transmission is transverse to the the motor, like with Fazua. Still it could be a leaner and more svelte in that area compared to some other bikes I've seen with this motor. Then again, this may not be the final iteration of the bike, much like the Voima went through a number of changes before it went GA.

The unknown here, ASAIK, is the current state of the Maxon battery platform, which I hoped by now the Swiss company would reveal a better set of batteries and mounting platform. I particular, what size battery is inside this bike? My guess is that it's the smaller 400wh battery and not the 600WH battery. [edit: PB article casually states that the onboard battery is 600wh, so if this is really the case that's good news and signals the Maxon revised their battery dimensions ]. That the bike has the battery extender in the picture is probably telltale. Leo had said months ago that 600WH battery was chubbier (much like the how the Bosch 800wh battery is chubbier than the 600wh) and the the battery mount are different for each, so they may not be swappable anyway [edit: this bike actually has Crestline-like battery swap out capability]. I'm really hoping Maxon has already gone back to the drawing board in the battery department to get this remedied in the coming 2026 season, where perhaps Leo knows something we don't. If not this may be the biggest reservation about the bike.

The other dimension of this reveal of the fabrication tech used, namely that Leo seems to have stayed the course with the full CNC, glued 7075 aluminum approach, which to some may still be controversial. 7075 is not easily weldable or repairable, and as such requires company that is a going concern and can stand behind a warranty program. Pole has lost goodwill here as none of the warranties on all the current bikes out there survived the company's receivership. The original swingarm design of the Voima was known for cracking issues and were replaced with an improved design under warranty before the company when under. One could argue this is general issue with any company that goes belly-up, whether they use carbon fiber or not (YT comes to mind). Needless to say, I have not experience any material issues with the Poles I've owned.

Finally, though, I'm really glad that this bike is a Sonni successor rather than Voima, because I've owned both and can clearly say that the Sonni is the far better bike, scaling back on some of the extremities of its predecessor. And that the Sonni never got it's moment because only handful of them were produced before Pole went under (my bike literally arrived the day the bankruptcy was announced). Maybe someday I will do full review of the Sonni, but until such time, this new Pole will hopefully put a newer, lighter version of it in other people's hands.
 
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This company and frankly the process and materials used in this frame scares me as much as I dig the geo. I wish they'd just mold the thing in CF.

Anyways, the 600w Maxon battery is a significant update either way.
 
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This company and frankly the process and materials used in this frame scares me as much as I dig the geo. I wish they'd just mold the thing in CF.

Anyways, the 600w Maxon battery is a significant update either way.
What was it about the geo that freaked you out? Was it the Voima geo or the Sonni's? Here is the geo numbers for the Sonni:
1768516296261.png

I would ignore the 180mm numbers, because it never made it to market.
 
Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, I dig the Pole geo. It's mostly on point.
I've only known two people here locally that have owned Poles. Both of them broke, one of them on the first day.
 
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I think he meant he likes the geo of the bike.
Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, I dig the Pole geo. It's mostly on point.
I've only known two people here locally that have owned Poles. Both of them broke, one of them on the first day.
My bad. Getting old. On some other thread someone was going off on how bad the Voima geo, and still had that on the brain. Looking at the Sonni geo, a number of those complaints were more than addressed.
 
With so many other amazing options out there, hard to justify/risk the money on Pole/Leo. Just my 2¢
Any poster who owned one, their comments hold more weight, so understood.

But the more I muse on this bike, I'm seeing more to it:
  1. Per Pole response in PB comments section, this bike does indeed have an internal 600wh battery instead of the 400wh. Also Maxon did keep fatter 600wh design, but it's not nearly as wide compared to say an 800wh Bosch (thinking Yeti LTE profile). So the downtube is not exactly Avinox slender, but still not bad from an aesthetic standpoint. For a number of folks, 600wh would be more than doable, especially if the motor is high efficiency ( potentially more efficient than any other HP ebike motor out there).
    1768549168115.png
  2. That hockey stick bend in the downtube, was not just to accommodate the transverse motor, but to allow the battery to be easily pulled out of the downtube without dropping the motor, a la Crestline! This is really a huge feature, especially if the max battery is 600wh. It opens up swap options and all the better if fast charging is possible.
  3. In the PB article there was a hint of improvement with an interlocking clamping interface of each shell - the CNC cutout above shows a zigzag interface.
    1768549085478.png
  4. The bike/motor supports a real bash guard design, unlike what Avinox bikes currently struggle with.
  5. An early adopter of the Maxon Air, which could be a genius stroke or nail in the coffin, depending how this motor really performs and if other plays take on the platform. For example if Atherton were to take on Maxon, it could instantly legitimize this choice.
  6. Shock mount location is much better than the Sonni, as it allows for bottle cage. Shock orientation appears rotated, like in the prior designs.
  7. The bike appears to be shown in 180/180mm 29er configuration, which just might make sense for this lighter Sonni incarnation. And while it sounds the yoke swaps can get this to downduro 200/200, there are no simple flip chips to test it out. It would be cool if Pole were to support variable CS lengths at different sizes, but I'm not holding my breath.
More shoes to drop, since the Pole FB group is still silent on this development.
 
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Any poster who owned one, their comments hold more weight, so understood.

But the more I muse on this bike, I'm seeing more to it:
  1. Per Pole response in PB comments section, this bike does indeed have an internal 600wh battery instead of the 400wh. Also Maxon did keep fatter 600wh design, but it's not nearly as wide compared to say an 800wh Bosch (thinking Yeti LTE profile). So the downtube is not exactly Avinox slender, but still not bad from an aesthetic standpoint. For a number of folks, 600wh would be more than doable, especially if the motor is high efficiency ( potentially more efficient than any other HP ebike motor out there).
    View attachment 174392
  2. That hockey stick bend in the downtube, was not just to accommodate the transverse motor, but to allow the battery to be easily pulled out of the downtube without dropping the motor, a la Crestline! This is really a huge feature, especially if the max battery is 600wh. It opens up swap options and all the better if fast charging is possible.
  3. In the PB article there was a hint of improvement with an interlocking clamping interface of each shell - the CNC cutout above shows a zigzag interface.
    View attachment 174390
  4. The bike/motor supports a real bash guard design, unlike what Avinox bikes currently struggle with.
  5. An early adopter of the Maxon Air, which could be a genius stroke or nail in the coffin, depending how this motor really performs and if other plays take on the platform. For example if Atherton were to take on Maxon, it could instantly legitimize this choice.
  6. Shock mount location is much better than the Sonni, as it allows for bottle cage. Shock orientation appears rotated, like in the prior designs.
  7. The bike appears to be shown in 180/180mm 29er configuration, which just might make sense for this lighter Sonni incarnation. And while it sounds the yoke swaps can get this to downduro 200/200, there are no simple flip chips to test it out. It would be cool if Pole were to support variable CS lengths at different sizes, but I'm not holding my breath.
More shoes to drop, since the Pole FB group is still silent on this development.

We already know the efficiency of the Maxon motor:


By my calculation the Maxon is 76% efficient, where-as the Bosch CX-R is 78% efficient (same testing protocol by the same people). So unfortunately, nothing Earth shattering there. Which also shows that lower power really isn't the same thing as lower efficiency as both were tested in max power modes. In this context it seems that Pole is gaining nothing going with the Maxon. He should spec CX-R motors to maximize efficiency and uptime.

The HP60 in all likelihood is probably the most efficient motor but it was unable to complete the test for various reasons. The CXR is in all likelihood the most efficient full power motor made today. Superior German engineering and all of that.

All efficiency tests are supposed to be posted up by 1-24-26, so it'll be fun to keep an eye on that, although the Avinox results might already be irrelevant with the new version just around the corner plus rolling changes to the current product.

If you go to page 5 of this thread, it's discussed a bit:

 
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I'm still not sure about the branding.
"Wanna Ride A Pole?"
"I'm Working On My Pole"
"My Pole Needs Charging"
"Don't Forget To Lubricate Your Pole"
 
I'm still not sure about the branding.
"Wanna Ride A Pole?"
"I'm Working On My Pole"
"My Pole Needs Charging"
"Don't Forget To Lubricate Your Pole"
That's of few advantages of owning a pole.... all the poles related inuendo...

Manly men are interested in riding my pole!
I polished my pole last night!
Awe damn my pole is covered in shit! .....
Finally I have a woman rode my pole and she really enjoyed it!.
 
Yep I wont be buying another Pole. Leo is making the same mistakes again that he made to drive the company into the ground the first time. Rushing to production with limited testing, sticking with a manufacturing method with high failure rates, keep thing terrible rear end design with horrendious stress risers.... theres a reason why pretty much every other manufacturer triangulates their rear triangles.... This skinny glued together single chainstay is a flex and failure waiting to happen. No thanks! I was sucked in once despite my reservations, never again.

Also that manufacturing method can fuck right off. It is a gimmick and inferior to the standard methods. I will never buy a glued together alloy frame again. Stupid, stupid.

I also think he has missed the mark with the maxom motor. With people flocking to the higher dji there appears to be very low enthusiasm for less powerfull motors. Maxom isnt as powerful as gen 5 bosch even, So really its a motor that competes with 2 yeah old bench mark. Good luck with that.

Old man rant offer complete.
 
Yep I wont be buying another Pole. Leo is making the same mistakes again that he made to drive the company into the ground the first time. Rushing to production with limited testing, sticking with a manufacturing method with high failure rates, keep thing terrible rear end design with horrendious stress risers.... theres a reason why pretty much every other manufacturer triangulates their rear triangles.... This skinny glued together single chainstay is a flex and failure waiting to happen. No thanks! I was sucked in once despite my reservations, never again.

Also that manufacturing method can fuck right off. It is a gimmick and inferior to the standard methods. I will never buy a glued together alloy frame again. Stupid, stupid.

I also think he has missed the mark with the maxom motor. With people flocking to the higher dji there appears to be very low enthusiasm for less powerfull motors. Maxom isnt as powerful as gen 5 bosch even, So really its a motor that competes with 2 yeah old bench mark. Good luck with that.

Old man rant offer complete.

Definitely a ‘no’ then? 😂

I don’t like what’s going on with the ‘hockey blade’ near the motor, why is it so massive? Does it have a backup motor hidden away in there or something?!

I’m quite interested in the Maxon motor actually, but that’s as far as it goes I think…
 
Definitely a ‘no’ then? 😂

I don’t like what’s going on with the ‘hockey blade’ near the motor, why is it so massive? Does it have a backup motor hidden away in there or something?!

I’m quite interested in the Maxon motor actually, but that’s as far as it goes I think…
Yep that's a hard NO!

I also forgot to mention that it is unconscionable that he has managed to start the company back up whilst leaving many customers and suppliers out of pocket.

For that reason alone.... absolutely no way im handing $1 over to that rouge.
 
Definitely a ‘no’ then? 😂

I don’t like what’s going on with the ‘hockey blade’ near the motor, why is it so massive? Does it have a backup motor hidden away in there or something?!

I’m quite interested in the Maxon motor actually, but that’s as far as it goes I think…

I too was in to the idea of the Maxon, but the engine reviews show that it's less efficient than the CXR. So you give up power, efficiency, chain ring protection, service centers and what is considered a perfect reliability record of the Bosch. And for what, to save .4 kg, less once you build in chain ring protection to the Maxon.
Then to top it off it's in a frame that will be a bit heavier offsetting the gains. Dude needs to take his designs and build CF molds and forget the billet nonsense. But if Maxon can't spit out a very special extra lightweight battery, Leo should go with CXR motors or the Avinox and get to production.
 
We already know the efficiency of the Maxon motor:


By my calculation the Maxon is 76% efficient, where-as the Bosch CX-R is 78% efficient (same testing protocol by the same people). So unfortunately, nothing Earth shattering there. Which also shows that lower power really isn't the same thing as lower efficiency as both were tested in max power modes. In this context it seems that Pole is gaining nothing going with the Maxon. He should spec CX-R motors to maximize efficiency and uptime.
Wow, that motor efficiency thread got pretty heated. Clearly looks like most of it was centered on Bosch vs Avinox. It seems that ebike-mtb.com's comments about motor efficiency doesn't jibe when just looking at the graphs. Perhaps there's rider dynamics at play here the enforce perceptions about efficiency. I guess we will see when we start seeing thee motors in the wild and get other bake-offs from influencers. In the end, if the efficiency of this motor is just marketing, then it's "nail in the coffin".
 
Yep I wont be buying another Pole. Leo is making the same mistakes again that he made to drive the company into the ground the first time. Rushing to production with limited testing, sticking with a manufacturing method with high failure rates, keep thing terrible rear end design with horrendious stress risers.... theres a reason why pretty much every other manufacturer triangulates their rear triangles.... This skinny glued together single chainstay is a flex and failure waiting to happen. No thanks! I was sucked in once despite my reservations, never again.

Also that manufacturing method can fuck right off. It is a gimmick and inferior to the standard methods. I will never buy a glued together alloy frame again. Stupid, stupid.

I also think he has missed the mark with the maxom motor. With people flocking to the higher dji there appears to be very low enthusiasm for less powerfull motors. Maxom isnt as powerful as gen 5 bosch even, So really its a motor that competes with 2 yeah old bench mark. Good luck with that.

Old man rant offer complete.
Tell us how your really feel;) You and I hammered Leo on the FB group about striking out in a different direction regarding fabrication, but he clearly wasn't having it - he likes what he knows it seems. While I'm not a material engineer, I thought more about a change in fabrication approach as projecting a change in company direction; that things will be different this time. The fundamental problem is company viability again. We tend to modify our priors only when there is evidence that future won't play out the same way again. If it's the same leader, with the same brand, pushing the same fab techniques, this is going to be an uphill climb to rebuild goodwill just on perception alone.

Speaking of strong priors, I feel your comments regarding suspension design and mechanics are based on the Voima, which is pretty much what Leo quickly departed from by coming out with the Sonni right on the heels of the Voima. The Sonni rides so much better with an abbreviated rear triangle (almost mid-Hp in behavior), and doesn't have the flex or stress riser points you mentioned. And the geo extremities were backed off in the Sonni, where it's less of a lean-in experience and more dynamic like some Horst Link bikes in the past, yet preserves the best riding characteristics of a Pole. I'm not trying to change your priors here, but just relaying to readers that Leo chose the much better design to base his new bike on. And for that I wish Leo luck.
 
Tell us how your really feel;) You and I hammered Leo on the FB group about striking out in a different direction regarding fabrication, but he clearly wasn't having it - he likes what he knows it seems. While I'm not a material engineer, I thought more about a change in fabrication approach as projecting a change in company direction; that things will be different this time. The fundamental problem is company viability again. We tend to modify our priors only when there is evidence that future won't play out the same way again. If it's the same leader, with the same brand, pushing the same fab techniques, this is going to be an uphill climb to rebuild goodwill just on perception alone.

Speaking of strong priors, I feel your comments regarding suspension design and mechanics are based on the Voima, which is pretty much what Leo quickly departed from by coming out with the Sonni right on the heels of the Voima. The Sonni rides so much better with an abbreviated rear triangle (almost mid-Hp in behavior), and doesn't have the flex or stress riser points you mentioned. And the geo extremities were backed off in the Sonni, where it's less of a lean-in experience and more dynamic like some Horst Link bikes in the past, yet preserves the best riding characteristics of a Pole. I'm not trying to change your priors here, but just relaying to readers that Leo chose the much better design to base his new bike on. And for that I wish Leo luck.
I'll admit the rear end is better than the voima from a strength perspective. But it still from my point of view poor design for mechanical strength. It still has a skinny seat stay extending past the chain stay creating a terrible stress riser that will have to be overly reinforced to not fail.

Yeah, that manufacturing technique has no advantage for the customer. But it does allow for cheap and quick changes in design without significant tooling costs. I guess that's why he is sticking too it. He can quickly and cheapy (by comparison) get a product to market and make changes on the fly. Which quite frankly suits his throw stuff into the market and let the customers beta test the products approach rather than do thorough testing before market release.

Yeah there is no change in his approach to business. it will not end well, the same mistakes are being made again.
 
I don’t have a problem with the bike. I’m sure it’s fine. I still have my Voima, that I’ve been thrashing since day 1 and it’s still going strong. However I won’t be getting the new one because of the Maxon. It’s less power and less range. I would have considered it if it came with the Avinox or even a Pinion with a belt drive. But that ship has sailed and I have an RS 181.2 Plaid coming.🤘🏻😎
 
Latest vid on the bike :

It’s very nice, but I really love my new Crestline RS181.2 Plaid with the Avinox M2s. I think it was a mistake to go with the Maxon, but I wish them good luck. I’d like to see them succeed, because Leo thinks outside the box and he is innovative. I loved my Voima!
 
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It’s very nice, but I really love mt new Crestline RS181.2 Plaid with the Avinox M2s. I think it was a mistake to go with the Maxon, but I wish them good luck. I’d like to see them succeed, because Leo thinks outside the box and he is innovative. I loved my Voima!
Yeah, Pole ain't on the same level as Crestline.
 
I’m still riding my Voima, at least for this season.

They’re playing the exclusivity card now, and the prices reflect that. For me, they’ve clearly crossed the line. But yeah, I guess it has to cost that much, since only 50 were produced this year.
 
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