Just a rant on restrictions - Tired of non-involved regulators

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Why is it legal to sell derestriction modules?

The way riders by the deresctrition gadget, it would be a leap foward have that possibility after signing a waiver or other kind of legal doc

I would prefer having police against criminals, than the illegal ebike rider.
But hey.... it is what it is.
Just a question if you don’t mind Mario.
If I drove my car with no insurance no tax and no license I presume by your logic I am not a Criminal,I am just an illegal motorist.
So by the same token you clearly believe that it does not make you a criminal to ride illegally.
Bizarre !
 
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Quite right and very well put,it seems to me there are some folks who just want to complain about everything ‘Lancs

The impression I get is that it is driven by political ideology, the 'rights of individuals' and not any great support for ebiking in general.

Surely the end goal should be to make ebiking more inclusive for all. More inclusivity (more riders) will lead to cheaper ebikes, and more will be invested in modern facilities, etc, both public or private investment, and which go hand in hand.

The current rights we enjoy in the UK (access to bridleways public footpaths etc) were hard fought for (historically) and given the direction politics is travelling (to the right) could just as easily be removed.
 
Just a question if you don’t mind Mario.
If I drove my car with no insurance no tax and no license I presume by your logic I am not a Criminal,I am just an illegal motorist.
So by the same token you clearly believe that it does not make you a criminal to ride illegally.
Bizarre !
Read my posts correctly.
I'm all in with ebikes not limited in assistance to 25km/h, and with all legal requirements.

I already have insurance, to avoid any trouble. Ebikes/bikes can do a lot of damage to a pedestrian or even a car.

BTW: you can drive like that illegally until you get caught. Only at that time, you'll become criminal.
 
But what does this even mean?

If enough riders had a bad accident on an ebike with no speed limit, in an isolated area and because they were travelling faster than their skill level, or because the ebike is not designed for that purpose, etc, then government would introduce legislation to crack down on it.

Even if it was just because of the astronomical cost involved with air ambulances, etc.

If it's mixed used public trails, irrespective of whether they are remote or not, then there are usually rules (or etiquette) to follow, I just don't understand how it is a "Karen" issue at all.

If those rules or etiquette are ignored by enough ebike riders, then the government would introduce legislation to crack down on it.

I also genuinely don't understand why anyone would want to purchase a high-powered ebike, with no speed limit, and then thrash the hell out of them off-road, but especially when a motorbike will be a far safer option and do a far better job.

Have all the thrills they like, just don't do it in shared public spaces where their behaviour may impact on other users.
I think you misunderstood my post.

1) speed is high on dh. On double tracks, on steep inclines, you can reach easily +60km/h.
This is attain with assistance of Gravity.
So, any person/horse rider I encounter, will reduce the speed - this is common sense.

2) Most karens walk near parks or sites near city. This karens, think their use of trails (normally hiking) is the only appropiriate kind of use of ALL trails.

But sure it's a hot topic in general the 25km/h...
 
Read my posts correctly.
I'm all in with ebikes not limited in assistance to 25km/h, and with all legal requirements.

I already have insurance, to avoid any trouble. Ebikes/bikes can do a lot of damage to a pedestrian or even a car.

BTW: you can drive like that illegally until you get caught. Only at that time, you'll become criminal.
Nonsense you are a criminal the moment you break the law,what a stupid argument,so again by your logic ,if I break into someones house I am not a criminal till I get caught,ridiculous.
 
When I got my first eMTB a few years ago, my thinking at the time was to de-restrict it as 25km/h seemed too slow. However, after riding for a few years my thinking has changed - for me, the only real time I'd want assistance above 25km/h is when I'm on a road either as a 'easy ride' or on my way to the forest. When I'm off road either local forest / fell or bike park, I don't think there has been a single time I've thought that I need a de-restricted bike. Why - I'm there to enjoy myself, not go as fast as I can. Whilst I can understand some of the discussion points, I don't necessarily agree with them but accept that different circumstances means different views.

What I 100% agree with is that UK police should be removing & destroying illegal pedelacs especially those use by 'Uber Eats' (other delivery firms available) in city centres. It is those riders (in my opinion) who give the general public the completely wrong idea of what e-bikes are. A number of my friends have ridden my bike and were genuinely surprised what happened when they reached the 25km/h limit!

So should we allow un-restricted bikes on the road - yes, but only if they are registered / insured and a clear distinction is made between those and 'regular' e-bikes. Should we allow un-restricted bikes on the trails - no as they have more potential to cause harm to others than a regular e-bike.
 
When I got my first eMTB a few years ago, my thinking at the time was to de-restrict it as 25km/h seemed too slow. However, after riding for a few years my thinking has changed - for me, the only real time I'd want assistance above 25km/h is when I'm on a road either as a 'easy ride' or on my way to the forest. When I'm off road either local forest / fell or bike park, I don't think there has been a single time I've thought that I need a de-restricted bike. Why - I'm there to enjoy myself, not go as fast as I can. Whilst I can understand some of the discussion points, I don't necessarily agree with them but accept that different circumstances means different views.

What I 100% agree with is that UK police should be removing & destroying illegal pedelacs especially those use by 'Uber Eats' (other delivery firms available) in city centres. It is those riders (in my opinion) who give the general public the completely wrong idea of what e-bikes are. A number of my friends have ridden my bike and were genuinely surprised what happened when they reached the 25km/h limit!

So should we allow un-restricted bikes on the road - yes, but only if they are registered / insured and a clear distinction is made between those and 'regular' e-bikes. Should we allow un-restricted bikes on the trails - no as they have more potential to cause harm to others than a regular e-bike.


I don't agree, if you want more speed than the given maximum for your country then pedal through the limit, if you can't do that then tough luck. Why should a few dickheads wanting higher assist speeds be allowed to screw up an entire countries off road cycling network?.
 
I don't agree, if you want more speed than the given maximum for your country then pedal through the limit, if you can't do that then tough luck. Why should a few dickheads wanting higher assist speeds be allowed to screw up an entire countries off road cycling network?.
Confused - I'm against de-restricting eMTB. If you want a de-restricted bike, then allow it with regulation (licence, insurance, etc) but for road use only.
 
I think you misunderstood my post.

No, I don't think I did.

1) speed is high on dh. On double tracks, on steep inclines, you can reach easily +60km/h.
This is attain with assistance of Gravity.

Yes, I think that we are all aware of gravity, and I suspect experienced riders, even on purpose built tracks, fully understand when and where it is appropriate to reach speeds of +60km/h gravity or not. I am also 100% sure that they would not make a habit of reaching those kinds of speeds on mixed use public trails, where they have no idea what hazard is around the next blind corner, or over the lip of a hill, etc.

But gravity isn't what you were arguing, was it?

I'm in for this! Assistance up to 25km/h is to lame, sorry...

Blasting it down a steep hill in a high gear, on a high-powered ebike with unrestricted speed, almost certainly guarantees that you are travelling a lot faster than "gravity", right?

I don't ride on purpose built private trails, but I am pretty sure that even there those kinds of unrestricted speeds would not be tolerated by riders on standard 250 watt 15.5 mph ebikes either.

2) Most karens walk near parks or sites near city. This karens, think their use of trails (normally hiking) is the only appropiriate kind of use of ALL trails.

I have had ebikers blast past me on high-powered modified ebikes, wobbling at those kinds of speeds, believing that they are immortal and that they own the place. Personally, I don't give a monkey's what happens to them when they inevitably crash, so long as it is nowhere near me.
 
Nonsense you are a criminal the moment you break the law,what a stupid argument,so again by your logic ,if I break into someones house I am not a criminal till I get caught,ridiculous.
Of course...
You're a criminal once your are convicted of a crime (a traffic penalty, a court decision, etc...)
If you're not caught, how can you be convicted.
There isn't ny subtility in this, in your conscious, you are a criminal, or not, will depend in your Moral.

Sorry I won't go this rabbit hole, since is offtopic.
If you know a lawyer, ask him/her if what I wrote is wrong.
As option, just ask IA.


Criminal is one thing....Acting criminally is a total different thing.
 
Of course...
You're a criminal once your are convicted of a crime (a traffic penalty, a court decision, etc...)
If you're not caught, how can you be convicted.
There isn't ny subtility in this, in your conscious, you are a criminal, or not, will depend in your Moral.

Sorry I won't go this rabbit hole, since is offtopic.
If you know a lawyer, ask him/her if what I wrote is wrong.
As option, just ask IA.


Criminal is one thing....Acting criminally is a total different thing.
Utter,utter nonsense 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂
 
No, I don't think I did.



Yes, I think that we are all aware of gravity, and I suspect experienced riders, even on purpose built tracks, fully understand when and where it is appropriate to reach speeds of +60km/h gravity or not. I am also 100% sure that they would not make a habit of reaching those kinds of speeds on mixed use public trails, where they have no idea what hazard is around the next blind corner, or over the lip of a hill, etc.

But gravity isn't what you were arguing, was it?



Blasting it down a steep hill in a high gear, on a high-powered ebike with unrestricted speed, almost certainly guarantees that you are travelling a lot faster than "gravity", right?

I don't ride on purpose built private trails, but I am pretty sure that even there those kinds of unrestricted speeds would not be tolerated by riders on standard 250 watt 15.5 mph ebikes either.



I have had ebikers blast past me on high-powered modified ebikes, wobbling at those kinds of speeds, believing that they are immortal and that they own the place. Personally, I don't give a monkey's what happens to them when they inevitably crash, so long as it is nowhere near me.
I think you''re.

First and for most: personally I ride my ebike in Tour (most of the time). I like the exercise, and it's like riding when I was fit and with 15kg less.

The lack of assistance after 25km/h can lead to dangerous situations, as for example:
Falling short of a row of jumps, ebikes drag a lot after 25km/h (as wrote previously, I wouldn't care about assistance after 25, if there wasn't so much drag - already asked the Fin youtuber that tests ebikes to measure torque after 25).
Wanting to speed up to make a gap (roadgap)
Wanting speed to overcome a real steep wall, where you need all the speed you can

This situations are non existent on any bike!

Speed limit assistance could be activated after some time, and assistance could be decrease based on speed and time.

If i want speed on trails, I just use the 300
 
The lack of assistance after 25km/h can lead to dangerous situations, as for example:

None of the examples you give make any sense unless you (1) are riding horribly designed trails or (2) are inventing scenarios based off of either an overactive imagination about how trails are designed or a complete misunderstanding of how assistance/drag works.

You do realize that the bike isn't applying the brakes after 25kph, right? The "drag" (which varies from system to system) is drag against pedaling; it's not actively slowing you down, it's just turning your bike into a slightly worse analog bike.

Falling short of a row of jumps, ebikes drag a lot after 25km/h (as wrote previously, I wouldn't care about assistance after 25, if there wasn't so much drag - already asked the Fin youtuber that tests ebikes to measure torque after 25).

In this example: where are you finding a jump trail that the trail designer is expecting you to pedal your heart out between the jumps? That's either (1) a dirt jump trail, where your problem isn't pedaling, it's your suspension, or (2) a disaster waiting to happen. Well-built jump trails expect you to maybe pedal into the first jump and then use trail speed afterwards. Sometimes you need to throw in a pedal or two for a slow section but it's nothing that "drag" would prevent you from doing.

Wanting to speed up to make a gap (roadgap)

Again, where are you finding a road gap that you're supposed to pedal like crazy into? Road gaps are typically set up after steep slopes and designed so that starting at the top of the slope and putting in 1-2 pedal strokes (from 0, so in the range of assistance) should clear the gap.

Wanting speed to overcome a real steep wall, where you need all the speed you can

This one at least actually exists, though I can't think of any examples on any trail I've ridden where an e-bike's speed limit / drag would actually hold you back.

This situations are non existent on any bike!
This looks like a typo on your part, but I agree!
 
Thing is... RIDERS continue to buy gadgets to remove speed limit..........
Why not just legalize IF the owner wants???
If it means having the class with no speed limit for assistance, but no throttle, I say: Thank you!

Bring on that cat full power/full assistance, that needs license/insurance/plate/lights/legal "stuff"!
Road Tax is a bit nonsense, at least in Portugal, where EVs are exceptent to pay.

I'm in for this! Assistance up to 25km/h is to lame, sorry...

I think you''re.

Yes, I bet you do, but you are now arguing two completely different ideas. If you want to purchase a high-powered ebike without any speed limits, then why don't you just buy one and then register it as a motorbike?

I assume because you won't then have access to off-road public bridleways and trails in Portugal, or you would already be doing it?

Portugal is a member of the EU, abide by EU ebike rules and regulation and although the UK has now left the EU they obviously adopted the same rules while still a member.

In theory, now it would be far easier to change the rules post Brexit here in the UK, than in Portugal.

But judging by the comments, the consensus appears to be that at least here in the UK, riders want off-road public land, bridleways, and trails etc to remain open and accessible to ebikes and are willing to compromise to ensure that remains the case.

What that compromise is, is being discussed on the Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB? thread.

Because in the UK, motorbikes are (usually) banned from these public shared spaces, and so why on earth would ebikers (MTBers) jeopardise this hard won privilege by demanding more powerful ebikes, without any speed limit at all, and registered as motorbikes, are entitled to the same privilege.

ebikes drag a lot after 25km/h (as wrote previously, I wouldn't care about assistance after 25

But this isn't what you were arguing for in the quotes above, I am guessing most ebike riders would agree with less "drag" but while keeping the same 250 watt 15.5 mph and which still cuts out once the ebike reaches that speed.
 
None of the examples you give make any sense unless you (1) are riding horribly designed trails or (2) are inventing scenarios based off of either an overactive imagination about how trails are designed or a complete misunderstanding of how assistance/drag works.

You do realize that the bike isn't applying the brakes after 25kph, right? The "drag" (which varies from system to system) is drag against pedaling; it's not actively slowing you down, it's just turning your bike into a slightly worse analog bike.



In this example: where are you finding a jump trail that the trail designer is expecting you to pedal your heart out between the jumps? That's either (1) a dirt jump trail, where your problem isn't pedaling, it's your suspension, or (2) a disaster waiting to happen. Well-built jump trails expect you to maybe pedal into the first jump and then use trail speed afterwards. Sometimes you need to throw in a pedal or two for a slow section but it's nothing that "drag" would prevent you from doing.



Again, where are you finding a road gap that you're supposed to pedal like crazy into? Road gaps are typically set up after steep slopes and designed so that starting at the top of the slope and putting in 1-2 pedal strokes (from 0, so in the range of assistance) should clear the gap.



This one at least actually exists, though I can't think of any examples on any trail I've ridden where an e-bike's speed limit / drag would actually hold you back.


This looks like a typo on your part, but I agree!
It’s not worth it lads,a lost cause he is
 
Yes, I bet you do, but you are now arguing two completely different ideas. If you want to purchase a high-powered ebike without any speed limits, then why don't you just buy one and then register it as a motorbike?

I assume because you won't then have access to off-road public bridleways and trails in Portugal, or you would already be doing it?

Portugal is a member of the EU, abide by EU ebike rules and regulation and although the UK has now left the EU they obviously adopted the same rules while still a member.

In theory, now it would be far easier to change the rules post Brexit here in the UK, than in Portugal.

But judging by the comments, the consensus appears to be that at least here in the UK, riders want off-road public land, bridleways, and trails etc to remain open and accessible to ebikes and are willing to compromise to ensure that remains the case.

What that compromise is, is being discussed on the Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB? thread.

Because in the UK, motorbikes are (usually) banned from these public shared spaces, and so why on earth would ebikers (MTBers) jeopardise this hard won privilege by demanding more powerful ebikes, without any speed limit at all, and registered as motorbikes, are entitled to the same privilege.



But this isn't what you were arguing for in the quotes above, I am guessing most ebike riders would agree with less "drag" but while keeping the same 250 watt 15.5 mph and which still cuts out once the ebike reaches that speed.
It’s not worth it lads ,a lost cause he is
 
None of the examples you give make any sense unless you (1) are riding horribly designed trails or (2) are inventing scenarios based off of either an overactive imagination about how trails are designed or a complete misunderstanding of how assistance/drag works.

You do realize that the bike isn't applying the brakes after 25kph, right? The "drag" (which varies from system to system) is drag against pedaling; it's not actively slowing you down, it's just turning your bike into a slightly worse analog bike.



In this example: where are you finding a jump trail that the trail designer is expecting you to pedal your heart out between the jumps? That's either (1) a dirt jump trail, where your problem isn't pedaling, it's your suspension, or (2) a disaster waiting to happen. Well-built jump trails expect you to maybe pedal into the first jump and then use trail speed afterwards. Sometimes you need to throw in a pedal or two for a slow section but it's nothing that "drag" would prevent you from doing.



Again, where are you finding a road gap that you're supposed to pedal like crazy into? Road gaps are typically set up after steep slopes and designed so that starting at the top of the slope and putting in 1-2 pedal strokes (from 0, so in the range of assistance) should clear the gap.



This one at least actually exists, though I can't think of any examples on any trail I've ridden where an e-bike's speed limit / drag would actually hold you back.


This looks like a typo on your part, but I agree!
I ride "natural" trails with features build in, most built to be DH trails.
If you only identify 1 of the 3 examples, I can for sure show you where precisely.
Yes, it's not trail centers.

Ebikes drag like crazy after 25. The power you put in, isn't porporcional to what you get on a Bike.

And no, it's not pedal like crazy! We're talking a few pedal strokes, that on a bike, acelerates immediately, and on an Ebike, since you past 25, is almost doing the same thing as doing nothing!
I bet most descend faster on a bike, than an ebike - no?

No typo, there...
 
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Yes, I bet you do, but you are now arguing two completely different ideas. If you want to purchase a high-powered ebike without any speed limits, then why don't you just buy one and then register it as a motorbike?

I assume because you won't then have access to off-road public bridleways and trails in Portugal, or you would already be doing it?

Portugal is a member of the EU, abide by EU ebike rules and regulation and although the UK has now left the EU they obviously adopted the same rules while still a member.

In theory, now it would be far easier to change the rules post Brexit here in the UK, than in Portugal.

But judging by the comments, the consensus appears to be that at least here in the UK, riders want off-road public land, bridleways, and trails etc to remain open and accessible to ebikes and are willing to compromise to ensure that remains the case.

What that compromise is, is being discussed on the Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB? thread.

Because in the UK, motorbikes are (usually) banned from these public shared spaces, and so why on earth would ebikers (MTBers) jeopardise this hard won privilege by demanding more powerful ebikes, without any speed limit at all, and registered as motorbikes, are entitled to the same privilege.



But this isn't what you were arguing for in the quotes above, I am guessing most ebike riders would agree with less "drag" but while keeping the same 250 watt 15.5 mph and which still cuts out once the ebike reaches that speed.
Portugal, follows everything from UE.

For speed I ride Enduro motos, no resctritions what so ever where I ride.
No need to use the trails mtbs/hikers use. You can have a +100km ride, and not crossing with anything/anyone.
Long and simple grear Singletracks, that goes for ever, or hardenduro stuff that leaves you breathless...
No need to use local/known trails, that are short, and destroying it with knobbies.....


You assume my idea is having a Surron @72V convertion, but you're so far from what I'm saying.

Ebikes drag like a pig on chains, after the 25km/h...

Really interesting seeing people so focus on a single point of view...



In resume:

1) There are people that don't want +25km/h assistance, because of n+1 reasons (trail access, taxes, insurances, bla...bla...bla...)

2) There are people that wouldn't mind +25km/h.
In this group, there are those that:

A) run desristrected gadgets...illegaly (but only criminal once convicted! 😉 )

and

B) others that would sign a waiver and doing it legally.


I'm on this last group (2B), and not being possible, time for a change to 2A

Nice discussion, thank you.
 
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I’m going to add that in Portugal, the emtb scene is growing, most people i know derestrict their ebs, yet i haven’t heard of any accidents involving emtbs or even the uber eats kinda ebikes, in the news or community. Most bike accidents in Portugal, often fatal, involve regular road bikes with lycra dudes (unfortunately it happens often).
Trail accidents involve someone who runs out of skills on a jump or drop 😅
 
I’m going to add that in Portugal, the emtb scene is growing, most people i know derestrict their ebs, yet i haven’t heard of any accidents involving emtbs or even the uber eats kinda ebikes, in the news or community. Most bike accidents in Portugal, often fatal, involve regular road bikes with lycra dudes (unfortunately it happens often).
Trail accidents involve someone who runs out of skills on a jump or drop 😅
True... unfortenatly cyclists and pedestrians continue to be killed on the road

Unfortenatly authorities, don't have an investigation team like GPIAAF, and blame always drivers and speed....
Lisbon/Cascais road (Marginal), decreased speed from 70km/h to 50km/h just because of this... but thruth to be told, drivers that don't respect 70 won't respect 50....

If there was an investigation, true measures could be arrise and reduce the risk of fatalities.
As it is, it's just an incom for the goverment
 
Ebikes drag like crazy after 25. The power you put in, isn't porporcional to what you get on a Bike.

What exactly do you expect to happen when you lose 100-500W from your legs?

The reality just slaps you in the face and you are also in the wrong gear. Next time you do the jump trail, do it motor/assistance off. Should be easier.
 
What exactly do you expect to happen when you lose 100-500W from your legs?

The reality just slaps you in the face and you are also in the wrong gear. Next time you do the jump trail, do it motor/assistance off. Should be easier.
Ebikes DRAG..... Is this really difficult to assimilate?

But really, I'm off. This post just open my mind on "JUST USE THE CHIPTUNING! F.×&#&#*#, WHY NOT!?"
 
They don’t drag they just become heavy…there’s a difference🙄
One thing is not feeling the drag, other is weight.
Pedaled several touring bikes to know the difference 😉
Bosch CX4 Smartsystem drags a LOT after 25km/h.
Don't know others, but it's something testers could measure.
Unfortenatly I don't have torque sensing pedals to backup my statement. But who has them, it's easy to check
 
One thing is not feeling the drag, other is weight.
Pedaled several touring bikes to know the difference 😉
Bosch CX4 Smartsystem drags a LOT after 25km/h.
Don't know others, but it's something testers could measure.
Unfortenatly I don't have torque sensing pedals to backup my statement. But who has them, it's easy to check
No touring bike (without fully packed frame bags/luggage) has ever been as heavy as a Trek Rail. Without bags/bladder/tools it weighs 24.5kg, when I load it up it is 30kg. I feel ZERO difference between riding it with the system powered off and system on but set to no assistance. If there is a difference then likely there is a problem with the motor.
 
No touring bike (without fully packed frame bags/luggage) has ever been as heavy as a Trek Rail. Without bags/bladder/tools it weighs 24.5kg, when I load it up it is 30kg. I feel ZERO difference between riding it with the system powered off and system on but set to no assistance. If there is a difference then likely there is a problem with the motor.
I won't go any further into your comment, because only thins part: Touring bikes loaded and lighter than 30kg... is something really funny! LOL!
 
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