Is the Power War over ? Is 1500 peak watts, 150Nm, the new benchmark ?

[Astro66]

People are now conditioned to be impressed with product features and numbers most of which fall into the category of being being superfluous.

Whilst I agree. The +1000 peak watts motor does ride incredibly well. Especially on technical climbs.

I think the industry is becoming more accepting that the EMTB, is no longer just a shuttle. But a device that creates a whole new sport, where ascending without foot dab, is a super fun goal. And greater peak powers make this possible on technical climbs, where it wasn't previously.

As more riders see what other riders can achieve on these motors. I think understanding of why riders choose them, has grown. Leading to greater acceptance.

 

[Mikerb]

Yes a bit more

Whilst I agree. The +1000 peak watts motor does ride incredibly well. Especially on technical climbs.

I think the industry is becoming more accepting that the EMTB, is no longer just a shuttle. But a device that creates a whole new sport, where ascending without foot dab, is a super fun goal. And greater peak powers make this possible on technical climbs, where it wasn't previously.

As more riders see what other riders can achieve on these motors. I think understanding of why riders choose them, has grown. Leading to greater acceptance.

yes, a bit more power helps but 100nm with 600 watts is all I need and I am not the strongest or fitest rider out there at 75 years old! If more power than that makes a tech climb easy I question the point of doing the climb. At those power levels above I still need good technique, good line choice, optimum tyre pressures and a well designed bike and I can feel the contribution each of those make.
I guess that is my point really. Who or what achieves success on the bike.....the rider or the machine. I like to conquer difficult terrain...not just be a passenger.

 

[Astro66]

If more power than that makes a tech climb easy I question the point of doing the climb.

It opens up more terrain. You don't have to get off and walk. It's fun.

It's funny. Descending on my 180/180 Enduro is easier than my 150/160 Trail Bike. The extra travel and geometry of the enduro, flattens the bumps. As does running 29 inch wheels, compared with the old 26er. Yet I've never had anyone ask me. If the bigger suspension and wheels makes descending easier. What's the point of doing the descent ?

For me, it's just about using the latest and best technology, to make you the best rider you can be.

Getting back to the topic. I think this is why we are getting more acceptance of motor technology. The motor now being accepted as something that can add performance improvements to the EMTB, rather than just as a shuttling device to get you back to the top of the descent.

I guess I would just add, especially with you being 75yo. The reason I bought my Enduro was really to make descending safer, as it does tend to flatten the descent. I'm not going faster on my Enduro. I'm just not needing a change of underwear anymore, on some of the trails I ride with my MTB club.

Now this goes the same when climbing. I have fallen and damaged ribs, when I stalled climbing. I just don't fall anymore when climbing, because I don't stall with these new +1000 watt peak motors.

The last time I fell, I couldn't ride for 4 weeks. So these motors are keeping me riding more consistently, because I don't fall on climbs.

 

[Hob Nob]

With the EU speed limit, I’d say we’re already at fairly pointless levels of power now. Side effect is we now also have drivetrains which are by proxy, absolutely not fit for purpose.

I understand the predicament manufacturers are in now, as apparently power output is one the biggest influences in purchase divisions & they are here to sell bikes.

As a rider with Bosch G5, Avinox M1, M2S & TQHPR60 bikes, I don’t ‘need’ any more than the TQ equipped bike & i’d argue anyone of average fitness doesn’t need anything more too. I’ve used the example before that a human of average fitness that can put out an FTP of 200w with one of the lowest powered motor systems available, can have a combined output of a number that the fittest cyclists in the world can only dream of.

 

[Suns_PSD]

The logical conclusion to that is that the robot goes out on your bike for a ride freeing you up to argue about bikes on the internets…

Just last night I was out riding my e-bike and a small hand held robot 'helped' out my gf around the house.
Boy was I relieved that machines have made our lives so much easier!
Ps. The first part of this story was true, the second part less so.
What I can also tell you is that last night's ride was simply too easy for an e-bike and sort of made it a bit boring. Even when I turned the motor down to Eco then I just had a really heavy, sloppy feeling bike.

 

[NATUXE]

Cela ouvre de nouveaux horizons. Plus besoin de descendre et de marcher. C'est amusant.

C'est marrant. Descendre avec mon enduro 180/180 est plus facile qu'avec mon trail 150/160. Le débattement plus important et la géométrie de l'enduro atténuent les chocs. Tout comme le passage aux roues de 29 pouces, comparé à mon ancien 26 pouces. Pourtant, personne ne m'a jamais posé la question : si une suspension et des roues plus grandes facilitent la descente, quel est l'intérêt de descendre ?

Pour moi, il s'agit simplement d'utiliser les technologies les plus récentes et les plus performantes pour vous permettre de devenir le meilleur pilote possible.

Pour en revenir au sujet, je pense que c'est ce qui explique l'acceptation croissante de la technologie des moteurs. Le moteur est désormais perçu comme un atout pour améliorer les performances des VTT électriques, et non plus seulement comme un moyen de remonter en descente.

Je voulais juste ajouter, surtout vu votre âge (75 ans). J'ai acheté mon enduro pour faciliter les descentes, car il a tendance à les aplanir. Je ne vais pas plus vite avec mon enduro, je n'ai juste plus besoin de changer de sous-vêtements sur certains sentiers que je parcours avec mon club de VTT.

C'est la même chose en escalade. Je suis tombé et me suis cassé des côtes en bloquant mon engin. Maintenant, je ne tombe plus en escalade grâce à ces nouveaux moteurs de plus de 1000 watts en crête.

La dernière fois que je suis tombé, je n'ai pas pu faire de vélo pendant quatre semaines. Ces moteurs me permettent donc de rouler plus régulièrement, car je ne tombe plus dans les montées.

Que chacun achete le vélo qui lui convient, sans chercher à imposer son choix autres

 

[Zimmerframe]

a small hand held robot 'helped' out my gf

I've never heard of them referred to as robots before, I'm so behind the times.

 

[Astro66]

I don’t ‘need’ any more than the TQ equipped bike & i’d argue anyone of average fitness doesn’t need anything more too.

I think many reviewers have made the case that we are all different fitness, sizes, weights and state of health. So having more peak power, that can be turned down or up to whatever the end user wants, is a better holistic solution, than a lower peak power that cannot.

As a 60yo with 2 heart surgeries, and 3 stents, in the last 12 months. I'd like to make a case for needing the extra peak power. My Rehab Cardio, that I have to visit twice a week, believes the riding is helping my hereditary heart condition. So I'd really like to keep riding with my friends, without the risks of accidentally damaging my heart further.

 

[Mikerb]

I sympathise

I think many reviewers have made the case that we are all different fitness, sizes, weights and state of health. So having more peak power, that can be turned down or up to whatever the end user wants, is a better holistic solution, than a lower peak power that cannot.

As a 60yo with 2 heart surgeries, and 3 stents, in the last 12 months. I'd like to make a case for needing the extra peak power. My Rehab Cardio, that I have to visit twice a week, believes the riding is helping my hereditary heart condition. So I'd really like to keep riding with my friends, without the risks of accidentally damaging my heart further.

...but it really means you are pleading a very special case. I am pretty sure the rationale behind the power war not to support folk managing health conditions.

 

[Hob Nob]

I sympathise

...but it really means you are pleading a very special case. I am pretty sure the rationale behind the power war not to support folk managing health conditions.

Agree. Unless they are using these ‘edge cases’ as an excuse to just ramp up power more and more.

At the end of the day however, I don’t actually care as 99% of the time it doesn’t impact me. The rare occasions it does (racing) the bigger issue is the ease in which you can now derestrict certain brands (which coincidentally are the ones pushing the power boundaries). The proliferation of cheaters has exploded.

 

[Astro66]

I sympathise

...but it really means you are pleading a very special case. I am pretty sure the rationale behind the power war not to support folk managing health conditions.

Is it a special case ? Heart disease is very common. It is the leading cause of death worldwide.

But I do agree with the sentiment. Increasing peak power levels the playing field for Mountain Biking. Now someone with a lot less fitness or experience or health, can ride with much stronger riders. And as someone who does do backcountry skiing. I do understand the "Earn your Turns" ethos. But I do balance that with lots of resort skiing.

Why can't the two live together in harmony. Those who want the +1000 watt peak power. Those do not. Just because the industry is producing these EMTBs. You do not have to buy them.

And as I pointed out. We really have hit the limit of what a 250 watt rated motor can do. No one is going to want a motor that keeps warning you, if you run it at peak watts too long. And that is happening now in hot climates.

 

[pagheca]

There are two aspects worth considering here.

The first is that needs and preferences change with age, health conditions, financial situation, and many other factors, including personality. This is unavoidable, so in principle it is a good thing that different options exist for different people.

The second aspect is ensuring public safety, which requires regulating any activity. The level of regulation can vary widely, from very strict to quite light, depending on the context.

A person who wanted to jump the Grand Canyon on an e-bike as a stunt would obviously require peak power levels in the order of several megawatts. But... allowing a vehicle of that kind on a trail shared with families walking does not seem like a good idea. Nor does allowing it on public roads without a license plate, insurance, and adequate training for the rider (i.e. a driving license).

In my humble opinion there is not much more to say: individual needs and desires versus collective needs and desires. As always.

Now, where the most appropriate balance between these two requirements lies is a matter for discussion, and is unlikely ever to reach universal agreement.