Industry Veteran Hans Rey Calls for Clearer E-Bike Definitions

[Powerslider]

The "anti-regulation" crowd is missing the point: it’s about trail access. If we ignore power and speed limits, there is no logical reason to ban dirt bikes from MTB trails. Throttles and high wattage allow inexperienced riders to reach dangerous speeds and damage trails through burnouts and drifting—activities they rarely spend time or money to repair.

While a strong rider can and does hit 20mph on a pedal bike & flat+smooth terrain, the average "weekend warrior" can't sustain that on knobby tires. I don't think you run Mezcals and Racekings on your eMTB, do you? Even with a 60Nm bike, you climb uphill at least 2x and often 3x as fast as you could under your own power.

Yet "we need more"...no, you frikkin don't. Would it be fun? Hell yes. But not on shared paths with other bikes and hikers and equestrians.
200mph in a car would be fun too, but ... not in public streets.

High-powered eMTBs create a massive speed delta that intimidates hikers and traditional cyclists. Manufacturers like DJI pushing the limits with "boost modes" and Specialized introducing Class II modes etc, only invites stricter classification. If we keep pushing the "inch" we were given into a mile, we’ll all end up classified as e-motos and banned from public land. If you want a Surron, buy one along with a trailer and ride it on your backyard, dirt bike tracks and jeep paths etc — insisting on de-restricting bikes - when 750W peak power is already 3x what the law allows for, risks ruining bicycle access for the rest of us.

I contend inexperienced riders can "reach dangerous speeds" on any bike going downhill so I simply don't respect the concern about an eMTB going fast. Same with the trail damage bs- Analog riders skid and drift regularly and nobody says a word. It's common to see advertisements featuring riders drifting the rear tire into a turn. The practice seems to almost be encouraged!
Further, your 200mph car point actually reinforces my position that eMTB shouldn't be disallowed. Cars aren't disallowed on roadways because they can exceed some arbitrary speed. We outlaw behavior; not potential behavior.
At my home trail system (Hawes) at least 50% of the maintenance volunteers are on eMTB; probably because they can haul tools and equipment more easily up the mountain... and technically eMTB are not even allowed at Hawes. Canyon just did a demo event at Hawes and they had a bunch of eMTBs for demo.
I said it before and i'll say it again... A lot of the eMTB hate is a byproduct of analog riders getting their egos hurt by a less strong and experienced rider passing them uphill like they're standing still. They're not even going that fast but compared to the 4mph an analog is climbing at, the eMTB rider doing 12 mph is somehow a safety hazard. smh

 

[pagheca]

Jeez bro, I made this really simple so you lot could understand, and you still don’t get it. Reading comprehension is apparently too difficult for you. Rather than repeating your same lame comment, go back and re-read my posts on this topic and try some critical thinking. If at that point you still don’t get it, then try to understand that you’re definitely a Karen and there’s no helping you.

you should really stop insulting people of being a "Karen" just because you disagree with them. I will report this to moderators. Bye MAGA guy!

 

[Fangs2k]

At my home trail system (Hawes) at least 50% of the maintenance volunteers are on eMTB; probably because they can haul tools and equipment more easily up the mountain... and technically eMTB are not even allowed at Hawes. Canyon just did a demo event at Hawes and they had a bunch of eMTBs for demo.

I’d much rather be allowed to ride somewhere by lawful right rather than be tolerated or allowed to ride somewhere until somebody somewhere changes their mind.

I’m thinking this might just be about the difference in approaches between our respective countries, which is fine.

Let’s be clear though, I’m as big a fan of EMTBs as the next guy, but I also want to be able to ride them lawfully in as many places as possible.

 

[Powerslider]

I’d much rather be allowed to ride somewhere by lawful right rather than be tolerated or allowed to ride somewhere until somebody somewhere changes their mind.

I’m thinking this might just be about the difference in approaches between our respective countries, which is fine.

Let’s be clear though, I’m as big a fan of EMTBs as the next guy, but I also want to be able to ride them lawfully in as many places as possible.

Maybe you’re right. Our country’s founding was directly related to rejecting an oppressive government. It remains a core principle.

 

[Onetime]

"When the debate is lost, insults become the loser's tool."

(Commonly attributed to Socrates).

So you have nothing to dispute what I’ve already said, got it.

 

[Fangs2k]

Maybe you’re right. Our country’s founding was directly related to rejecting an oppressive government. It remains a core principle.

I don’t really see how the USA was ‘founded’ has any relevance to the issue of having and keeping a lawful right to ride a bike somewhere?

But I can see that you’ve got much principled work to be getting on with your side of the pond, so I’ll leave you to it.

 

[HandsomeDanNZ]

In a country where we have some of the best mountain biking in the world, along with very little regulation around EMTBs, we just don't seem to have the same level of perceived issues or animosity when it comes to eBikes.
Surrons are more of an issue around streets and local parks (including skate parks) than on proper MTB trails.
Nobody cares what the output or top speed capability of your legitimate pedal assist ebike is - it's more about the way you ride than what you ride.

Cars and motorcycles aren't limited to certain speeds or output. The roads are designed for specific speeds and appropriate limits are placed on those locations - i.e. 50kmh in urban areas, 100-110kmh on motorways and a bit of everything in between.
We have cars, bikes, scooters, motorcycles and pedestrians all sharing our roading network in some capacity - none of them are restricted on output, potential top speed or torque.
They are governed by the roading laws - i.e. roadworthiness, adherence to local speed limits, general road rules etc.
I have an EV - it's output is approx 150kw with around 300nm of torque.
The new version of my vehicle is going to have 330kw and 500nm.
Supercars and hypercars are allowed legally on our roads, with stupid numbers like 1000+nm of torque and wild amounts of power, being capable of insane acceleration and top speeds. They're not limited by law, to certain output. They are governed by road rules.

Needless to say, I don't get the whole argument of limiting speeds and outputs at the product level on eMTB's. I think it should be at the trail level - so regardless of what's powering a bike (legs, gravity or an electric motor assisting legs) there's a limit to what is acceptable speed-wise.
The carnage from a DH rider doing 70kmh down a shared trail would be far worse than a casual eMTB rider grinding up a steep hill at 30kmh.

 

[Fangs2k]

In a country where we have some of the best mountain biking in the world, along with very little regulation around EMTBs, we just don't seem to have the same level of perceived issues or animosity when it comes to eBikes.
Surrons are more of an issue around streets and local parks (including skate parks) than on proper MTB trails.
Nobody cares what the output or top speed capability of your legitimate pedal assist ebike is - it's more about the way you ride than what you ride.

Cars and motorcycles aren't limited to certain speeds or output. The roads are designed for specific speeds and appropriate limits are placed on those locations - i.e. 50kmh in urban areas, 100-110kmh on motorways and a bit of everything in between.
We have cars, bikes, scooters, motorcycles and pedestrians all sharing our roading network in some capacity - none of them are restricted on output, potential top speed or torque.
They are governed by the roading laws - i.e. roadworthiness, adherence to local speed limits, general road rules etc.
I have an EV - it's output is approx 150kw with around 300nm of torque.
The new version of my vehicle is going to have 330kw and 500nm.
Supercars and hypercars are allowed legally on our roads, with stupid numbers like 1000+nm of torque and wild amounts of power, being capable of insane acceleration and top speeds. They're not limited by law, to certain output. They are governed by road rules.

Needless to say, I don't get the whole argument of limiting speeds and outputs at the product level on eMTB's. I think it should be at the trail level - so regardless of what's powering a bike (legs, gravity or an electric motor assisting legs) there's a limit to what is acceptable speed-wise.
The carnage from a DH rider doing 70kmh down a shared trail would be far worse than a casual eMTB rider grinding up a steep hill at 30kmh.

Yep, I like the way NZ do a lot of things, I’ve only been once, on a short work trip, so didn’t get to see much of it but want to go back soon. One of my best mates moved there with his girlfriend/family a few years back and he’s always telling me how great it is.

I don’t think it’s that different over here with most things you mention, to be fair. My own EV is stupidly powerful but it’s allowed on the road with everything else and I’m a sensible chap. We do seem to be out of step with you on the e-bike assist limit front though, we’re aligned with the EU regs as you’d expect.

UK is a lot more crowded than NZ though, and land ownership and access is a sometimes contentious topic. One of the best high mountain rides I do regularly is mostly bridleway so shared with horses as well as people, and as I’ve said 90% of my off road riding is on such shared trails and whilst I don’t see many other people most of the time, the regs make sense for the UK and it’s ‘rules’.

The answer is obviously for each country to legislate for their own circumstances, people need to lobby their own law makers if they want change rather than shout at strangers on an Internet forum who are happy with the way things are. I just like bikes, me.

 

[HandsomeDanNZ]

Yep, I like the way NZ do a lot of things, I’ve only been once, on a short work trip, so didn’t get to see much of it but want to go back soon. One of my best mates moved there with his girlfriend/family a few years back and he’s always telling me how great it is.

I don’t think it’s that different over here with most things you mention, to be fair. My own EV is stupidly powerful but it’s allowed on the road with everything else and I’m a sensible chap. We do seem to be out of step with you on the e-bike assist limit front though, we’re aligned with the EU regs as you’d expect.

UK is a lot more crowded than NZ though, and land ownership and access is a sometimes contentious topic. One of the best high mountain rides I do regularly is mostly bridleway so shared with horses as well as people, and as I’ve said 90% of my off road riding is on such shared trails and whilst I don’t see many other people most of the time, the regs make sense for the UK and it’s ‘rules’.

The answer is obviously for each country to legislate for their own circumstances, people need to lobby their own law makers if they want change rather than shout at strangers on an Internet forum who are happy with the way things are. I just like bikes, me.

I think you're right with regard to the land ownership and general rules that apply (and if I am honest hadn't really thought about that aspect, as it largely doesn't apply in NZ).
Also agree that each country should be in charge of its own legislation and application of rules - as they do with vehicles and roading networks.

 

[Onetime]

In a country where we have some of the best mountain biking in the world, along with very little regulation around EMTBs, we just don't seem to have the same level of perceived issues or animosity when it comes to eBikes.
Surrons are more of an issue around streets and local parks (including skate parks) than on proper MTB trails.
Nobody cares what the output or top speed capability of your legitimate pedal assist ebike is - it's more about the way you ride than what you ride.

Cars and motorcycles aren't limited to certain speeds or output. The roads are designed for specific speeds and appropriate limits are placed on those locations - i.e. 50kmh in urban areas, 100-110kmh on motorways and a bit of everything in between.
We have cars, bikes, scooters, motorcycles and pedestrians all sharing our roading network in some capacity - none of them are restricted on output, potential top speed or torque.
They are governed by the roading laws - i.e. roadworthiness, adherence to local speed limits, general road rules etc.
I have an EV - it's output is approx 150kw with around 300nm of torque.
The new version of my vehicle is going to have 330kw and 500nm.
Supercars and hypercars are allowed legally on our roads, with stupid numbers like 1000+nm of torque and wild amounts of power, being capable of insane acceleration and top speeds. They're not limited by law, to certain output. They are governed by road rules.

Needless to say, I don't get the whole argument of limiting speeds and outputs at the product level on eMTB's. I think it should be at the trail level - so regardless of what's powering a bike (legs, gravity or an electric motor assisting legs) there's a limit to what is acceptable speed-wise.
The carnage from a DH rider doing 70kmh down a shared trail would be far worse than a casual eMTB rider grinding up a steep hill at 30kmh.

You’re 100% correct mate! This is what I’ve been saying from the beginning. Any restrictions should be placed on the trails and the user of the trails, not the bikes being ridden. It’s just common sense. There are no real world problems or conflicts related to how much power or speed my emtb is capable of, in any areas where I ride it. Everyone is courteous and just rides! There aren’t any chicken littles on the trails worrying that the sky is falling because some e-bikes make 850 or 1000w and have the ability to go 28mph! The dramatics in here is crazy!

 

[MeatBike]

Hans has done a follow up interview regarding his open letter:

"The biggest fear is that we could lose trail access": Hans Rey reveals all about his recent open letter to the bike industry | off-road.cc

Hans Rey needs little introduction in mountain bike terms. Though, just in case you were hiding under the rocks he wheelied over for the past 30-odd years, we’ll try to sum up Hans and his own particular place in the history of our great and evolving sport. More recently, he’s taken to the...

road.cc

 

[irie]

Hans has done a follow up interview regarding his open letter:

"The biggest fear is that we could lose trail access": Hans Rey reveals all about his recent open letter to the bike industry | off-road.cc

Hans Rey needs little introduction in mountain bike terms. Though, just in case you were hiding under the rocks he wheelied over for the past 30-odd years, we’ll try to sum up Hans and his own particular place in the history of our great and evolving sport. More recently, he’s taken to the...

road.cc

More, more, and more only works until it doesn’t work any longer. If we keep making the pedal-assist e-bikes (Class 1) more and more powerful, we will eventually outclass them, and they will be ‘officially’ or ‘legally’ become motorcycles, while for the time being, they are considered and treated like bicycles. But we can’t take that for granted; laws are already changing against our best interests, and the biggest fear is that we could lose trail access – as well as bike lane access – for Class 1 eMTBs.

This ^^^

 

[Suns_PSD]

In a country where we have some of the best mountain biking in the world, along with very little regulation around EMTBs, we just don't seem to have the same level of perceived issues or animosity when it comes to eBikes.
Surrons are more of an issue around streets and local parks (including skate parks) than on proper MTB trails.
Nobody cares what the output or top speed capability of your legitimate pedal assist ebike is - it's more about the way you ride than what you ride.

Cars and motorcycles aren't limited to certain speeds or output. The roads are designed for specific speeds and appropriate limits are placed on those locations - i.e. 50kmh in urban areas, 100-110kmh on motorways and a bit of everything in between.
We have cars, bikes, scooters, motorcycles and pedestrians all sharing our roading network in some capacity - none of them are restricted on output, potential top speed or torque.
They are governed by the roading laws - i.e. roadworthiness, adherence to local speed limits, general road rules etc.
I have an EV - it's output is approx 150kw with around 300nm of torque.
The new version of my vehicle is going to have 330kw and 500nm.
Supercars and hypercars are allowed legally on our roads, with stupid numbers like 1000+nm of torque and wild amounts of power, being capable of insane acceleration and top speeds. They're not limited by law, to certain output. They are governed by road rules.

Needless to say, I don't get the whole argument of limiting speeds and outputs at the product level on eMTB's. I think it should be at the trail level - so regardless of what's powering a bike (legs, gravity or an electric motor assisting legs) there's a limit to what is acceptable speed-wise.
The carnage from a DH rider doing 70kmh down a shared trail would be far worse than a casual eMTB rider grinding up a steep hill at 30kmh.

I think you live in probably the closest thing to Heaven, but to be fair it's much less crowded/ lower population density there than many other places.

 

[Onetime]

This ^^^

More BS propaganda. No one is threatening to take our access away. No one is confusing what a surron does on the streets, with what an emtb does on offroad trails. Everyone knows they’re not the same. Enough already! Stop falling for the Bosch media propaganda. They’re getting desperate because they’re being outsold by Avinox and Specialized. That’s the bottom line.

 

[irie]

More BS propaganda. No one is threatening to take our access away. No one is confusing what a surron does on the streets, with what an emtb does on offroad trails. Everyone knows they’re not the same. Enough already! Stop falling for the Bosch media propaganda. They’re getting desperate because they’re being outsold by Avinox and Specialized. That’s the bottom line.

Spoken as a little islander

There is a big world outside Cali.

 

[Onetime]

Spoken as a little islander

There is a big world outside Cali.

Wow, that’s an impressively stupid comment. California is not an island, and all of this nonsensical hysteria was started by Hans, who lives and rides in Laguna beach California, the same place I ride. So I’m speaking from direct experience in that location. But it also applies across the United States as a whole. Stop with all the hysteria, it’s really not necessary.

 

[irie]

Wow, that’s an impressively stupid comment. California is not an island, and all of this nonsensical hysteria was started by Hans, who lives and rides in Laguna beach California, the same place I ride. So I’m speaking from direct experience in that location. But it also applies across the United States as a whole. Stop with all the hysteria, it’s really not necessary.

Not like you to miss the point.

Oh

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Wow, that’s an impressively stupid comment. California is not an island, and all of this nonsensical hysteria was started by Hans, who lives and rides in Laguna beach California, the same place I ride. So I’m speaking from direct experience in that location. But it also applies across the United States as a whole. Stop with all the hysteria, it’s really not necessary.

TBF, these concerns came before Hans...

I was just talking about this with my riding buddy. So far its only me and him that have gone darkside, rest of our group still is purely analog. We both also ride analog too, but lately its been more E.

Nobody is coming to our state forrest, town parks, etc.. and enforcing shit, besides parking violations. The town/state barely clean up and maintain them. WE, small MTB group, do 95% of storm cleanup. Rangers drive by, see us at night riding (illegal), features built around the park, etc... So yes, I agree in this moment nobody is doing anything about enforcement locally, nor do I even think they could tell an eMTB from analog.

What is concerning is things like the recent bill in NJ. I could make the same argument, that its NOT going to affect trail users. Again, are they going to post cops or rangers to check license, registration and insurance at your local town park or forest... probably not. Could you get stopped on the road while commuting to your local park, maybe. Worst case, you pay a fine, can they impound your bike if not registered?

Lines unfortunately need to be drawn otherwise it doesn't work in reality and how ebikes are viewed and treated. Personally, give me all the power and speed... I'm responsible. However, I know that's not going to work. Honestly, at some point your ride experience is no longer that of a bicycle. Motorcycles are fun too, years ago I owned a dual sport DRZ400. I wish we had more legal riding available, but we don't. Part of the reason I sold it off years ago, it took too much effort to ride it offroad. Sold it and got a sport bike. Then I got into MTB and was bit by the bug. Got an eMTB bit me again, hard.

 

[ebsocalmtb]

I ride laguna all the time and no, it’s not overrun with surrons blasting the trails. There are plenty of EMTB’s that ride there including mine, however they’re not an issue and the park rangers don’t mind. Having 750w vs 850w or 1000w is not going to change anything on those trails and neither will it if a bike can go 28mph vs 20mph on a flat access road. These attempts at imposing more restrictions are flat out BS and are only a means to keep Bosch competitive with Avinox and Specialized, (and my ebike is Bosch powered). Hans is a sellout plain and simple. It’s sad too because I WAS always a fan.

I live in the same place you do and respectfully, there are a few things with your response that do not align with my knowledge of the situation here in socal. It should be noted, my perspective is based on the fact that I have been riding here for 25 years, and have been part of the trail building/maintenance, trail advocacy and have spent a lot of time with USFS and OC Parks rangers and land managers.

1) The trails are overrun with surrons. Not only is this true, but it is a perception that the land managers and park rangers have. The park rangers have plenty of proof via the game cameras but anyone can see the proof themselves in the tire tracks in the trails after a rain event. Some areas are worse then others.

2) The park rangers do mind about ebikes and they do not want them in the parks, nor do the land managers and land trust managers. The reason that they are turning a blind eye, is that ebikes make up about 60% of the bicycle users, and they are unclear on how to enforce the rules. We were VERY VERY close to having bicycles banned from all county parks 5 years ago. That is still their only, and go to solution to the problem if/when the land managers demand action on this issue. Keep in mind that the parks we are riding on here, were donated to the county from land trusts and there are usage guidelines that are in place still to this day, and motorized vehicle usage is strictly prohibited in the land donation/management agreements. Every 2-3 years or so, this issue re-surfaces based on user group interactions, and the thought of banning all bicycles from the parks re-surfaces. Trust me when I saw this as a person on the inside, we are far closer to losing access on a regular basis then 99.9% of trail users realizes.

3) One thing that keeps us safe at the moment is the clear and obvious distinction between us and surron riders. Surrons do not look like emtbs and they are identified as the true problem. Once we have emtb's that are capable of the same types of climb rates on single track and steep climbs, we will be the next target.

4) The issue is not outright speed. The issue is speed deltas and interactions with other user groups that are clearly identifiable as being the result of an emtb. There is no doubt that having vehicles on the trails that are climbing up 20% grade fire roads and up 15% grade single tracks at 4x the pace of what bicycles have been capable of for the last 3 decades, is a significant issue. Yes, most people are not morons, and this is not universally the issue in every single case... but we all should know or admit just how low the lowest common denominator is. There have obviously been user group interaction issues for as long as mountain bikes have been in the parks... but now each negative interaction very quickly goes to the ebike argument.

5) Regarding Hans being a sellout... he has been and still is involved with trail advocacy and access here in southern california for 20+ years. He is talking to the same managers, rangers and policy makers that I am. He is of course, surfing the line of his sponsors and not being able to outright name names and state what it at stake without jeopardizing his own relationships, or outing people sharing information. He is a part of the Laguna Rads... whom are responsible for many/most of the off the menu trails that are widely ridden today. To not accept or acknowledge the place he has in southern california mtb acceptance and brush it off as a sellout, shows a serious lack of understanding of the southern california mountain bike landscape.

The truth of the matter is that our access depends on a clear definition of not falling into the layman identification of a motorized vehicle. It is hard to explain that we are not when there are people moving up 20% grade fire roads, at a 60rpm cadence, not breaking a sweat. You can visually see people from across the canyons/hills/trails that appear to be going un-naturally fast and it is more identifiable as a motorcycle in those moments then a bike. I myself, have a 750w/100nm ebike and I would say that it is too powerful and un-necessary. Do I like using full power when climbing canyon acres and can I do that safely? Of course... but it doesn't change the fact that it's more power then I need, and in the wrong hands, it is absolutely enough power to more biased towards a motorbike and motorbike speeds then bicycle speeds.

 

[Stihldog]

I live in the same place you do and respectfully, there are a few things with your response that do not align with my knowledge of the situation here in soca…

Curious, who maintains those trails and the trail network within the boundary? Are there different groups or users? Funding? Regulations?

It’s likely different than our area (BC or the PNW)for obvious reasons.

Sometimes it seems like the wild-west here. Almost anything goes …until the Provincial Park says; “That’s enough “.

 

[ebsocalmtb]

Curious, who maintains those trails and the trail network within the boundary? Are there different groups or users? Funding? Regulations?

It’s likely different than our area (BC or the PNW)for obvious reasons.

Sometimes it seems like the wild-west here. Almost anything goes …until the Provincial Park says; “That’s enough “.

The trails are maintained by Orange County Parks and Recreation. There are foundations and organizations that work with the county to maintain the trails, in this case, that's Laguna Canyon Foundation. As is often the case, the land management situation is incredibly challenging, and what outsiders refer to as "Laguna" is actually made up of 2 county parks, 1 state park and one city park. Those are (respectively): Laguna Coast Park, Aliso Viejo Park, Crystal Cove State Park and Irvine City Open Space. This is a nearly 60 year effort to protect these areas from development and involved 3 different municipalities, the california coastal commission etc. It is as complicated as land management and land access gets, but not uncommon in other areas that see significant and lucrative development. https://lagunagreenbelt.org/history-of-laguna-greenbelt/

The kicker... is that all of the trails you see on youtube, or see marketing photos shot on, or hear people talking about are off the menu. It's the same situation that you have in norcal in Marin, Pacifica or Santa Cruz. Those trails are largely maintained by people like me (I do a ton of off book trailwork in this area) and the laguna rads (of which Hans is a huge part of). If you haven't heard about the rads, they are one of the groups that were at the forefront of mountain biking.

The challenge here is one of hypocrisy. The trails we ride are unsanctioned, and have been there for over 25 years. Many, if not nearly all of the singletracks that are sanctioned, were at one time, unsanctioned mountain bike trails. All of the trail work that is done, is done by mountain bikers via volunteers. We are commonly labeled as destructive and reckless and it is said that our trails cause erosion risk and endanger natural habitats... yet we were not the ones that decided to cut a toll road and a 2 lane road through the open space preserves.

All that to say, that access is not at all guaranteed and mountain bike access was not part of the original use case (obviously since this started prior to mountain biking). There are strict requirements in the bylaws of the land acquisitions and also by the coastal commission which oversees all of this, that the land is absolutely not to be utilized for motorized vehicles.

Our local rangers do not want to ban mountain bikers... they know that we are the biggest user group and that we do the majority of the trail work. That does not change the fact that they can only get away with bending the rules at their own discretion by so much before it becomes a problem. Now that emtb's are harder to identify, it's a foregone conclusion that if the requirement passed down to the rangers is to eliminate ebikes from these parks... they will have no other option other than to just ban all bicycle usage. I have sat in many meetings with these rangers and Hans has been a part of a few of them. He is the real deal, on the front lines simultaneously advocating for access, regulation that makes sense... but then will be one of the first people with a shovel in his hand digging an unsanctioned trail. He is a core mountain biker through and through... and he is a HUGE reason we still have access to this area today.

We are far closer to that then anyone that isn't involved with mtb access has any clue of. The fact that there are so many different land managers and regulators involved in this area makes a blanket ban, the safest and most likely method of fixing this situation... we just simply need to not rock the boat, and not be so blatant that they have no choice.

 

[Stihldog]

Wow! It gets complicated there with all the layers of bureaucracy.

Our rangers (only seen them 3 times in the past 7 years) are generally good and helpful. They appreciate the work done by the mtb groups which is probably why there is some flexibility. (My small gripe)…I’ve never seen a hiker lift a shovel …and that’s okay. Both hikers and bikers share this mountain.

Amongst the trail builders I try to stress the fact that we cannot create liabilities.…and there’s more than a few …but mostly out of sight and out of mind.

98% of the work and funding is by users. And 98% of that is by MTB’ers.

Hikers and bikers are equal on this mountain. So far everyone gets along.

 

[Sherman]

Any restrictions should be placed on the trails and the user of the trails, not the bikes being ridden.

Wouldn't this be possible already in private bike parks or trail centers as it's up to the land owners what is allowed? Of course there are other issues then, like insurance and liabilities and whatever other regulations there are.

Anyone asked their opinions?

 

[Deleted member 37410]

If they just made that "250W nominal" EU thing actually mean something maybe this problem would just be solved

 

[pagheca]

Not like you to miss the point.

Oh

please ignore him. Apparently it is allowed to this idiot to insult others (I don't like to do it but it is apparently allowed to do so on this forum with no reactions by the moderators).

Consider yourself lucky that he can’t put a 75% tariff on you for disagreeing with him...

 

[ebsocalmtb]

I was actually on a (ebike) ride in laguna last night with a person whom is integral to imba and a 30 year industry veteran and an another person whom is an owner of one of the core mtb shops in southern california. We couldn't help but discuss this very topic for a large part of the ride. The conversation was interesting to say the least, a lot fact, opinion and sarcasm mixed into the dialog. So take anything I say with a grain of salt and much of this is applicable to the US market and US regulation...

A few things that I found interesting from that convo:
1) There is a strong feeling that many land managers are silent on this because the regulation is largely silent on this. There is a strong feeling that the land managers are going to defer to national and local regulation over all else as that's the clearest definition and easily defensible.

2) A lot of conversation about the class system and how that became to be, starting back in 2013... Clearly that's a system that was designed in an entirely different landscape for this technology. It barely fit back then, and certainly is harder to apply and understand now. The sentiment was that the different classes may be holding us back in terms of how delineate emtb's as different from e-mobility devices.

3) the thought exercise we were engaging in for a large part of the conversation is related and tangential to what Hans is advocating for. Specifically that our best chance at avoiding needless regulation was to differentiate class 1, pedal assist ebikes from all other electrified mobility devices. To that end, the binary style of sorting that Hans is advocating for, makes sense in that you define anything that is not class 1 to be defined as a moped and class 1 bicycles to be defined as bicycles. The distinction and verbiage here is important... because once you define something as a moped, you are kicking that over to US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). This does a few things... keeps the US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) out of this as they are known to be a serious problem in ebike safety regulations and laws (as well as other bicycle related stupidities specific to the US). The NHTSA, whom are actually data driven, logical and amicable to industry feedback, would take control of the stupid vehicles in the news that every municipality is furious over. They key is to very quickly position these emtb's, as different from "motorized vehicles". If we get that label on these bicycles, we will lose access quickly and the house of cards will collapse.

4) That leaves us with the burning question, that Hans is putting a spotlight on... What is a class 1 emtb? What is it that consumers want and does the consumer want, create access or safety issues? What is the definition of class 1 emtb that provides clear delineation from electrified mobility devices? How do you as an industry and consumer, present a product type that is leaving room for innovation and development, achieving the consumer want and satisfaction for the money they are spending, clearly understood by law makers, land managers, rule/law enforcement.

They key difference between this cycle of development in emtb's and general progression of mtb's in the past... is that this part of the bicycle industry is iterating and developing in a way that is more akin to tech companies. DJI is in fact, just that. The concern is that tech companies have proven to be disruptors of the status quo, and embrace the strategy of if the rules do not allow your product, then tear up the rules and proceed. While the gear/progression junky in me loves the idea of the bike industry being disrupted and seeing new paths of progression... the fact is that without trails, there is no mountain biking. That's what makes this sport different then others... even different then closely related sports (like enduro moto) that have similar access challenges, but can exist without sustainable, long standing trails that are on land that we can access without risk of loss.

 

[irie]

please ignore him.

Will do so.

 

[DIomidis]

Out of curiosity, do you own a EMTB or have you ever ridden one? Can you see any positives in riding an e-bike, for yourself or anyone else? In my case, I happen to really value class 3 - so I don’t have to fire up my RAV-4 and drive it the trailhead. Nothing sinister about that. Otherwise, I ride safely and ride within my limits. I love riding bikes and e-bikes too.

Yes, I do own a eMTB (Class 1, mid power, Orbea Rise) and I really like it. I use it exclusively recreationally - at least up to this point.

Do I see a benefit in assisted bikes? Of course. I do see them as great alternative to commuting, not just for recreation. I can see people with mobility issues valuing them, I see people valuing them for costing a fraction of what a car would while remaining more flexible than mass transit (if there is mass transit, I am writing this from SoCal/Orange County where mass transit is a sad excuse and a total policical failure).
But it is clear that companies are taking advantage of the regulations as-they-exist, and users are knowingly play dumb.
I do not extend this to you. I am talking about the average. And sorry, I don't believe that the vast majority of parents or adults alike, pay $3K or even 4 and 6 and $7K for their eMotos and do not "know" that these are not bicycles with fake pedals and - at least in the first iterations - stupid easy DIY de-restrictions etc...they knowingly buy motos that they don't want to register and insure.


Is that everyone? Of course not.
And of course there are legit uses for Class 2/3 bikes, in a global scale, with users riding them to run errands or commute to work and/or school etc. Also, in case of most pre-teen & teenagers who has those in my region, it is what bicycles always have been: great tools to escape, to be free away from parents, alone or with friends. Exploring, fooling around, visiting the romantic interest's neighborhood...all that jazz.

Doing it on streets and not on sidewalks and/or mixed use trails is also not that much to ask.
And doing it at 20 or 28mph, is fast enough. Dare I say, already probably double the average speed most people can maintain on pedal-bikes. Forgive me if you are the crit racer who can take 90 deg flat turns at 30mph on your road bike, we are talking about the average Joe who cannot do that even at 15mph.

You want to ride your class 3 to the trailhead?
Sorry, class 3 are not even allowed on my trails. Yes, kids ride them all the time, I think this is illegal, and if they were to crash on me or my kid - and I had quite a few close calls + seen multiple head-on crash vids from my very SoCal trails - I am pressing charges for compensation.


I like fast bikes, I like fast cars, I like fast motos. I don't like the rules down to the letter, but I know drawing any line, always leaves some on one side, and others on the other.
I am an architect. I "draw lines" every day. I "suffer" through building code regulations. But I know why they exist - do you?
Because if they didn't my very clients would "value engineer" and ommit half the "common sense" safety equipment and over-engineered construction details, with zero regard to life and safety. We are not talking their private residences of course, we are talking huge apartment buildings with 100s if not 1000s of real users that pay an arm and a leg for and shouldn't be worried that something will fail on their head because someone wanted to save a buck.

So...bikes and lines...even if you intenttions are not bad, "your limits" are nowhere close to 28mph on flats, sorry, they are much lower than that.
Your insurance with that vehicle is not for 28mph, or anything like that.
And even if they were, the local trail managers and legislation do not want you to "open it up".

 

[John_likes_bikes]

The trails are maintained by Orange County Parks and Recreation. There are foundations and organizations that work with the county to maintain the trails, in this case, that's Laguna Canyon Foundation. As is often the case, the land management situation is incredibly challenging, and what outsiders refer to as "Laguna" is actually made up of 2 county parks, 1 state park and one city park. Those are (respectively): Laguna Coast Park, Aliso Viejo Park, Crystal Cove State Park and Irvine City Open Space. This is a nearly 60 year effort to protect these areas from development and involved 3 different municipalities, the california coastal commission etc. It is as complicated as land management and land access gets, but not uncommon in other areas that see significant and lucrative development. https://lagunagreenbelt.org/history-of-laguna-greenbelt/

The kicker... is that all of the trails you see on youtube, or see marketing photos shot on, or hear people talking about are off the menu. It's the same situation that you have in norcal in Marin, Pacifica or Santa Cruz. Those trails are largely maintained by people like me (I do a ton of off book trailwork in this area) and the laguna rads (of which Hans is a huge part of). If you haven't heard about the rads, they are one of the groups that were at the forefront of mountain biking.

The challenge here is one of hypocrisy. The trails we ride are unsanctioned, and have been there for over 25 years. Many, if not nearly all of the singletracks that are sanctioned, were at one time, unsanctioned mountain bike trails. All of the trail work that is done, is done by mountain bikers via volunteers. We are commonly labeled as destructive and reckless and it is said that our trails cause erosion risk and endanger natural habitats... yet we were not the ones that decided to cut a toll road and a 2 lane road through the open space preserves.

All that to say, that access is not at all guaranteed and mountain bike access was not part of the original use case (obviously since this started prior to mountain biking). There are strict requirements in the bylaws of the land acquisitions and also by the coastal commission which oversees all of this, that the land is absolutely not to be utilized for motorized vehicles.

Our local rangers do not want to ban mountain bikers... they know that we are the biggest user group and that we do the majority of the trail work. That does not change the fact that they can only get away with bending the rules at their own discretion by so much before it becomes a problem. Now that emtb's are harder to identify, it's a foregone conclusion that if the requirement passed down to the rangers is to eliminate ebikes from these parks... they will have no other option other than to just ban all bicycle usage. I have sat in many meetings with these rangers and Hans has been a part of a few of them. He is the real deal, on the front lines simultaneously advocating for access, regulation that makes sense... but then will be one of the first people with a shovel in his hand digging an unsanctioned trail. He is a core mountain biker through and through... and he is a HUGE reason we still have access to this area today.

We are far closer to that then anyone that isn't involved with mtb access has any clue of. The fact that there are so many different land managers and regulators involved in this area makes a blanket ban, the safest and most likely method of fixing this situation... we just simply need to not rock the boat, and not be so blatant that they have no choice.

View attachment 179239

I'll be enjoying #6 this weekend, have been for 20 years. Everyone seems to get along out there, hope it stays that way.

 

[DIomidis]

I contend inexperienced riders can "reach dangerous speeds" on any bike going downhill so I simply don't respect the concern about an eMTB going fast. Same with the trail damage bs- Analog riders skid and drift regularly and nobody says a word. It's common to see advertisements featuring riders drifting the rear tire into a turn. The practice seems to almost be encouraged!
Further, your 200mph car point actually reinforces my position that eMTB shouldn't be disallowed. Cars aren't disallowed on roadways because they can exceed some arbitrary speed. We outlaw behavior; not potential behavior.
At my home trail system (Hawes) at least 50% of the maintenance volunteers are on eMTB; probably because they can haul tools and equipment more easily up the mountain... and technically eMTB are not even allowed at Hawes. Canyon just did a demo event at Hawes and they had a bunch of eMTBs for demo.
I said it before and i'll say it again... A lot of the eMTB hate is a byproduct of analog riders getting their egos hurt by a less strong and experienced rider passing them uphill like they're standing still. They're not even going that fast but compared to the 4mph an analog is climbing at, the eMTB rider doing 12 mph is somehow a safety hazard. smh

The lack of respect that you confess is exactly the problem.

As for the trail damage, I agree that class 1 bikes do not damage the trail more than the regular bikes do...eMTBs are what? Worst case 20lbs/10kg heavier than the average unassisted MTB? Realistically 10lbs/5kg more.
I am 190lbs/86kg, should I be banned from trails till I go down to 180lbs/80kg or whatever? That's ridiculous. Nobody says that.

BUT, throttled bikes can and do damage the trails, and especially throttled bikes with RIDERS that ride trails after the rain and do "burn outs" in the clay mud...it is not a "cuttie" here and there we are talking about. My local trails are riddled with these riders, even though there are trail closures and directives that suggest not running the trails after the rain...screw etiquette. This is the lack of respect that is the problem.

And when I volunteer to go for trail work (not in Arizona, would love to ride Hawes), I will go there on my eMTB too...I don't want to arrive there panting before I even do any work.
Again, because I guess I am bad in my writing : I have no issues with class 1 bikes, and I agree that the gate-keeping that cylists do against it, is based on stubborness and/or ignorance or "earn the pain up" whatever trip they are on. I am not trying to appease any of these peeps...they don't get it, it is fine. Snowboards vs. Skis.

I have clear issues with class 2/3 bikes and even worse, de-restricted emotos that cos-play class2/3 bikes, that run the trails day and night, ripping them up. Majority of those people in my area, are teens. They will never show up to dig or repair anything, but even if they did, that doesn't absolve them of doing what is clearly not allowed, and the "F-U I won't do what you tell me" attitude, is what might risk access to our trails.

I don't know how hawes is per se, but here in SoCal, lots of the trails are within city limits, with lots of homeowners that have political connections and lots of time to pursue their pet projects, spend time either hiking, or riding their horses in their neighboing trails. And you don't want these peeps petitioning or outright extorting local goverments kicking "eBikes" out. And if they do, I want to have a case to make about my Class 1 / 20mph "fast enough" eMTB, being worlds apart from the Class 2/3 bikes the "bad ones" (sorry, a line will be drawn anyways, I will have to be on the "right" side) are riding. If companies are allowed to pursue "more than 750W" and more than 20mph, then why not more than 3000W and why not more than 40mph, etc etc? We will end up being universally banned.

This is what DJI and all these "tech-bro-move-fast-and-break-things" mentality is risking for us.
Of course the real liability is the rider who is whiling to buy that tool and ride it with bad etiquette, but I cannot pursue individuals, not can I rely on shaming the shameless. I can only try to apply pressure and petition the source, perhaps try to be the good example infront of my local goverment/trail management bodies etc.