Industry Veteran Hans Rey Calls for Clearer E-Bike Definitions

[Astro66]

Maybe this isn't an issue in Australia but it very much is in other parts of the world so just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it won't affect others.

We have some of the strictest nanny state laws there are. But EMTBs being ridden on trails is not a concern. They are all limited to 25kph. So why would there be ? There have been zero pedestrians hurt by EMTBs on trails. Many hurt by illegal riding of EBikes on our roads. Our trails are regularly closed when there is wet weather. A much greater factor in trail damage compared to an additional 200 watts of peak power. If that was regulated in Britain, your riding season would be but a few months.

So I'm suggesting that the push by Hans Rey, who is sponsored by Bosch, for tighter regulations, is rooted in controlling the EMTB market. Not in any concern for riders, pedestrians or state of trails.

 

[Tetley]

In the UK, the law is very clear, it's the media, social media and the police that muddy the waters by calling everything that's electric, 'e-bikes'. I have recently noticed the police have just about started to correctly label some of the illegal bikes they stop and seize.
One thing I can't work out, is how the manufacturers of PADALECs can keep the nominal continuous motor rate of 250W, but keep on increasing the peak power? Are there no rules, and how is peak power defined? My 2020 Levo doesn't seem to run out of peak power when on big climbs, so not sure when the 250W limit kicks in? Is this just a big loophole the manufacturers are exploiting?

 

[Weeksy]

In the UK, the law is very clear, it's the media, social media and the police that muddy the waters by calling everything that's electric, 'e-bikes'. I have recently noticed the police have just about started to correctly label some of the illegal bikes they stop and seize.
One thing I can't work out, is how the manufacturers of PADALECs can keep the nominal continuous motor rate of 250W, but keep on increasing the peak power? Are there no rules, and how is peak power defined? My 2020 Levo doesn't seem to run out of peak power when on big climbs, so not sure when the 250W limit kicks in? Is this just a big loophole the manufacturers are exploiting?

It sure seems like it yeah. I have no clue how they get away with it.

 

[Mario Antony]

It's funny how people get fuseed with 4 digit power values, thing is, in ebike world, it's 1000W, meaning 1Kw, which is equal to 1.3hp!

By being limited to 20mph or 25km/h, does it really matter having 600W/750W or even 2000W?

Powerfull motors will get ebikes up to speed limit faster and will be less tiering maintaing those speeds.
But really, how fast is 20mph///25km/h?

Too much theory and too much office time, if you go out more, we'll check by yourselfs that those speed limits are perfectly fine.


BtW:
My ebike is setup at 400W/50Nm in Eco, and 475W/65Nm in Tour = Where I mostly ride.
And the best thing I did, was derestricted the ebike, which now feels natural, and I don't go above 30ish, although I can.

 

[pagheca]

It's funny how people get fuseed with 4 digit power values, thing is, in ebike world, it's 1000W, meaning 1Kw, which is equal to 1.3hp!

Yes, but what really matters is the power over weight ratio. While for a car, or even a motorbike, 1.3 hp is nothing, for a person riding a bike weighting 25 kg or so maybe something.

 

[Weeksy]

It's funny how people get fuseed with 4 digit power values, thing is, in ebike world, it's 1000W,

1000w is a flat out sprint for most average riders who are half decent. I bet there's only 1-2 on here who could maintain 1000w for more than 15s. It's an insane figure that i simply can't understand a need for personally.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

It sure seems like it yeah. I have no clue how they get away with it.

Peak power in the EU is not regulated... 250W continuous is the law and its a THERMAL requirement/limit. Motor tech is much better today than when the law and motor tech was when written. Modern brushless motor/digital controller can output 3-4x the mechanical power at the same thermal rating as older brushed motors. So a 250W brushed motor equals roughly a 750-1000W brushless (with temp sensing and derating).

 

[pagheca]

In the UK, the law is very clear, it's the media, social media and the police that muddy the waters by calling everything that's electric, 'e-bikes'. I have recently noticed the police have just about started to correctly label some of the illegal bikes they stop and seize.
One thing I can't work out, is how the manufacturers of PADALECs can keep the nominal continuous motor rate of 250W, but keep on increasing the peak power? Are there no rules, and how is peak power defined? My 2020 Levo doesn't seem to run out of peak power when on big climbs, so not sure when the 250W limit kicks in? Is this just a big loophole the manufacturers are exploiting?

(minor correction: it's pedelec, not padalec... unless maybe you are joking with the name of the "slow" worm? )

For the rest, despite the many "explanation" you find online, my understanding is just that the "peak power" issue is actually a grey area in the regulation, aka, a mistake.

 

[MeatBike]

Sure, but that's harder to implement legislatively... an increase in power when there's already precedence.

For you UK (maybe others too) folk... what's more important? Keeping the 15 mph AND the 250W nominal on the hopes that with time more powerful motors would still be "legal" OR get the 20 mph limit and cap at 750W?

UK person here... I cycle on the road to my local trails and 15.5mph feels dangerously slow vs the cars, so I'd take a raise to 20mph over anything else.

 

[Gila Man]

UK person here... I cycle on the road to my local trails and 15.5mph feels dangerously slow vs the cars, so I'd take a raise to 20mph over anything else.

You are correct, the danger of cycling on the road is the speed difference between bicycles and cars. Speaking strictly for the US, the speed limit on the pedal assist should be raised to 25 mph. Most residential street speed limits are 25 mph. Having a bicycle capable of keeping up with traffic (albeit only on flat roads) would be less dangerous overall. The UK speed limit for pedal-assist bikes at 25 kph is a number that appears to have pulled out of thin air by a politician that knows nothing about speeds. Most of the world has speed limits on its roads (used by cars capable of exceeding those limits), it should be just as easy to put limits on trails instead of on the bicycles themselves.

As far as peak power on pedal-assist bikes, as Pagheca stated (post #35), 1000w is only 1.3 hp and that really isn't a big deal. 1000 is a nice easy to remember number that should be easy for ignorant politicians to just grab onto.

 

[KRC96]

Where I see the problem from Colorado is E-Bike = Specialized Levo or E-Bike = Sur Ron or E-Bike = Stark Varg. Every time there is new about kids on Sur Rons ripping through neighborhoods they call them E-Bikes. Type into google Stark Varg E, and usually ebike will be the second or third option. We have to set our E-Bikes aside as bicycles and call Sur Rons something else all together. This is more important than the 750W. PS I feel for the UK riders where they are limited to 15mph, that is too slow for most trails. Our 20mph in the states is very reasonable.

 

[Sherman]

Mopeds have been banned from pedestrian and cycling paths, and for good reason. People here often seem to forget that electrically assisted bicycles are classified the same as regular bicycles, which allows them to be used as widely as possible. If power or speed limits start being increased, those rights could also be put at risk. That’s why there should be clear limits regarding power and speed.

 

[Plyphon]

To those of you who think Bosch are staying at 750W out of some moral responsibility to 'do the right thing' in the ebike world.... I've got a bridge to sell you.

If Bosch could flick a switch to get to 1000+W to stop losing market share and partner integrations to Avinox, Spesh, etc then they would do that overnight.

 

[Plyphon]

Mopeds have been banned from pedestrian and cycling paths, and for good reason. People here often seem to forget that electrically assisted bicycles are classified the same as regular bicycles, which allows them to be used as widely as possible. If power or speed limits start being increased, those rights could also be put at risk. That’s why there should be clear limits regarding power and speed.

Do you think mopeds are restricted because of their power or top speed?

 

[techm8n]

Avinox: 1000w
Specialized: 850w
Mahle: 850w
Yamaha: 800w
Bosch: 750w


Bosch went from being the most powerful to the least powerful amongst the big motor manufacturers.

What will be interesting is what messaging will appear if/when Bosch update their motor to more than 750w which IMO is inevitable

It's all Bosch propaganda. Bosch is scared that they'll lose market share from Avinox, Specialized, and other motor manufacturer with higher power numbers. They know power numbers sell. And bike manufacturers know this.

Example Orbea, Norco, Forbidden, etc knows that a lot of customers are looking to buy Avinox based eMTBs, then why would they not switch to Avinox system when they can sell more bikes that way. Plus I heard that the Avinox system is around 15% cheaper than a Bosch system. So bike manufacturers will gain another 15% profit and sell more bikes. It's common sense.

 

[Plyphon]

Where I see the problem from Colorado is E-Bike = Specialized Levo or E-Bike = Sur Ron or E-Bike = Stark Varg. Every time there is new about kids on Sur Rons ripping through neighborhoods they call them E-Bikes. Type into google Stark Varg E, and usually ebike will be the second or third option. We have to set our E-Bikes aside as bicycles and call Sur Rons something else all together. This is more important than the 750W. PS I feel for the UK riders where they are limited to 15mph, that is too slow for most trails. Our 20mph in the states is very reasonable.

Agreed - the branding issue is real. 'Ebike' is too much of a generic term. It naturally fits to anything that has two wheels (maybe even 3!) and electricity. That could be interpreted as anything from a 50nm XC bike to a fully electric superbike that has 700 horsepower. The 'legal definition' gets thrown to the wayside as it's too much of a easy term to apply to peoples mental models of 'ebike'.

'Ecycle' or something else would be better for EPACs. Something that makes clear its something you cycle.

 

[ebsocalmtb]

I think it's a good idea personally. There needs to be some self regulation here before someone (us law makers) jump into the pond and start regulating with zero knowledge of what makes sense. For example, I am an american gun owner, that strongly believes gun regulation needs to be a thing in the US and WAY more strict then it is... but that doesn't mean that I think the gun laws that we already have are crafted properly.

I digress... I have a bosch gen 5 cx motor equipped bike. IMO, even at 750w and 100nm it is too powerful and heads past what is necessary and even nice to have and starts to head into not a bicycle territory. The speed, acceleration and torque allow this vehicle to do things that are not possible on human powered machines, save maybe 200-500 people world wide. There is no doubt that it impacts our ability to share trails with other user groups, impacts how trails should be designed and managed and adds another element of complication to sharing open spaces.

Beyond that, we need to separate and distinguish ourselves from surrons and other electrified vehicles as fast as possible. Ebikes were allowed into a lot of open space areas in the US because they reached a critical mass where land managers didn't have much choice, but could also see and acknowledge that it did not change the dynamic of trail interactions. Now that we have 30-40% more power then the first 4 generations, I fear that reality may change as the lowest common denominator of user is much lower then anyone on this forum wants to, or cares to admit.

And to those that are espouting that this is some sort of business play, take a step back. Bosch is a big company with a lot of experience. If they wanted to create a motor that has high peak numbers, they can/would. What they are trying to do is protect the overall market and use case for these vehicles. It becomes very difficult to sell any units of something if they are exist in questionable legal ground. If you look back back at the timeline progression, bosch has been involved in shaping and advocating for power limits and standards long before the race for more power kicked off.

 

[Mario Antony]

Yes, but what really matters is the power over weight ratio. While for a car, or even a motorbike, 1.3 hp is nothing, for a person riding a bike weighting 25 kg or so maybe something.

Are you for real?

 

[Mario Antony]

1000w is a flat out sprint for most average riders who are half decent. I bet there's only 1-2 on here who could maintain 1000w for more than 15s. It's an insane figure that i simply can't understand a need for personally.

You must be more time behind a desk, than riding bikes/ebikes.

If speed is limited to 25km/h // 20mph, you won't be as fast as World Sprinters.

Even if you derestricted the ebike, you'll be limited by final drive.

All this limitations, and self power castration, is really stupid.
Would I like to have a 25kg, 2KW motor? No! Range would be shit.


PS: powerfull motors, require big batteries, big batteries, are heavy!
Market is going towards lighter ebikes, so it's a bit of nonsense wanting to limit power or self regulate max power... all will come naturally!

 

[irie]

="Mario Antony, post: 666052, member: 30092"
All this limitations, and self power castration, is really stupid.

I do so appreciate a well reasoned, logical, and fact based argument such as this.

 

[Mario Antony]

I do so appreciate a well reasoned, logical, and fact based argument such as this.

Just added comment after PS:

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Don't forget dieselgate (VW/Bosch emissions scandal)... so while I'm fairly confident Bosch can deliver a 1000W motor. I can also belief part of their position is strategy based, naive not to believe that. I work for an aerospace company who was involved in a massive export violation and penalties. You better believe, to this day, they still drill and have gone "overboard" to insure it doesn't happen again.

The reality is, at least in the US, things are happening which may lead law makers to make decisions for US... it certainly will be beneficial if we self-regulate and control the narrative.

 

[Gila Man]

Don't forget dieselgate (VW/Bosch emissions scandal)... so while I'm fairly confident Bosch can deliver a 1000W motor. I can also belief part of their position is strategy based, naive not to believe that. I work for an aerospace company who was involved in a massive export violation and penalties. You better believe, to this day, they still drill and have gone "overboard" to insure it doesn't happen again.

The reality is, at least in the US, things are happening which may lead law makers to make decisions for US... it certainly will be beneficial if we self-regulate and control the narrative.

What would actually be beneficial is if the cycling public contact their representatives and help educate them on pedal-assisted electric bicycles. Representatives listen to those with the loudest voices because it's what they believe will get them re-elected. The bicycling community needs to get involved in these discussions so that those that understand how these bicycles work can help educate the lawmakers on what they're trying to regulate. The "industry" is not going to self-regulate because they are about making money and will continue to give the consumer what they want. I believe regulating inanimate-objects is a little ridiculous, it's human actions that should be regulated. We have cars and motorcycles capable of exceeding 200mph but, we don't regulate their power, we regulate how fast you're legally allowed to drive them on a public roadway.

 

[Mario Antony]

After derestricting my ebike, I found myself usong more Tour, set at 475W and 75Nm, and eMTB+ (standard settings) on technical climbs (real difficult climbs).

With this setting, and being 88kg naked, I manage to ride ~40km and ~ 1750m with a 750Wh battery.
If I start using Turbo and eMTB+ all the time, this stats will be impossible with 750wh, or ride as long.

My motor is CX4smart, so having a more powerful motor (aka: CX5/DJI), and using such power, rides will be very short, or, bikes will increase weight significantly.

 

[Fangs2k]

Do you think mopeds are restricted because of their power or top speed?

They’re restricted because an 80-100kg (excl rider) machine that can travel with ease at 30mph has no business mixing with pedestrians and cyclists.

I don’t know why this is so difficult, you can legally ride as fast and powerful an ‘e-bike’ as you like, but you will need to jump through some licensing and insurance hoops, and be restricted to where you can legally ride it.

We shouldn’t be trying to turn e-bikes that can be legally ridden anywhere that a standard pedal cycle can be into electric motorbikes by stealth, however much fun sone people find them or how stupid people think ‘the rules’ are.

Yes, probably a UK perspective, but there it is.

 

[Suns_PSD]

You must be more time behind a desk, than riding bikes/ebikes.

If speed is limited to 25km/h // 20mph, you won't be as fast as World Sprinters.

Even if you derestricted the ebike, you'll be limited by final drive.

All this limitations, and self power castration, is really stupid.
Would I like to have a 25kg, 2KW motor? No! Range would be shit.


PS: powerfull motors, require big batteries, big batteries, are heavy!
Market is going towards lighter ebikes, so it's a bit of nonsense wanting to limit power or self regulate max power... all will come naturally!

The 'heavier batteries will create the necessary limits on power' argument will be null and void inside of 2.5 years as battery technology continues to advance. This is a short-sighted perspective.

A universal watt/ nm/ speed limit makes the most sense with some sort of locked motor. 750w/ 100nm/ 25mph makes the most sense to me.

 

[ValActionT 750]

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him, but reading PInkbike, most of the argument isn't the power/performance, but the attitude of the associated riders. Barging their way through, self-entitlement etc...

In the UK i've not seen this attitude at all despite being out in the hills most weekends.

So i'm not sure that the power being set would actually help/change that.

by the same account though, i simply don't understand the want/need for more power. But i've been a MTBer for a long time. Is it more the newer riders who are in this arms-race for power ?

Here in Southern California I believe education for both parents & the rug rats, before blanket regulation. There seems to be knee jerk reaction to “unruly” behavior. Many kids seem aware of the need to safe. Of course there are those that could care less. Sometimes seeing the mob of kids reminds me of the 80’s and crowds of kids on their bmx bikes. They definitely could do 18pmh.
When we lived in Spain during 60’s I had a Solex bike. Of course things in general were pretty different and I drove only on rural roads. Now I have both emtb and a class 2 egravel bike.

 

[Onetime]

Open Letter to the Bicycle Industry https://www.pinkbike.com/news/an-open-letter-to-the-bicycle-industry.html#commenttop​

That's it, all the new power emtbs are e-mopeds

View attachment 178618

Sadly it seems like Hans has become a schill for Bosch. Bosch doesn’t want to spend the money to complete with Brose and Amflow, so they pay influencers, (a lot less) to speak on their behalf and trying to get the media to jump on the bandwagon and pressure governments to place limits on the competition. In all other recreational on and offroad segments, (motorcycles, atv’s, side by sides etc) there are no restrictions, (namely speed or power) placed on the vehicles themselves. Any speed limits are strictly the responsibility of the vehicle owner or operator, NOT ON THE VEHICLES! This should be the same for EMTB’s! Those limits stifle innovation and evolution. If I can pedal my analog bike to 30mph on the flats, then I should be able to do the same thing on my ebike. To hit a 15 or 20mph wall at that speed is ridiculous. And when I get to super steep technical climbs, I can use all the power I can! And if some consumers don’t want that much power, don’t buy it, buy an SL or tune your full power down. We don’t need more regulations, we need less. And less Karen’s whining about it. Just go ride and don’t worry about how much speed or power someone else’s bike has. Lots of us want all the speed and power. That’s why Avinox and now Brose are selling so many bikes! The world is not going to end if a bike makes 850 or 1000w rather than 750! And if I can pedal to 28mph, rather than 15 or 20, it doesn’t matter! Rant over, back to the regular scheduled programming.

 

[pagheca]

Sadly it seems like Hans has become a schill for Bosch. Bosch doesn’t want to spend the money to complete with Brose and Amflow, so they pay influencers, (a lot less) to speak on their behalf and trying to get the media to jump on the bandwagon and pressure governments to place limits on the competition. In all other recreational on and offroad segments, (motorcycles, atv’s, side by sides etc) there are no restrictions, (namely speed or power) placed on the vehicles themselves. Any speed limits are strictly the responsibility of the vehicle owner or operator, NOT ON THE VEHICLES!

I’m sorry, but that’s not the case. Let’s stop this misunderstanding. The current laws requires that above a certain power and speed threshold, rules similar to those for motor vehicles should apply: insurance, a driving license, and so on.

You may disagree with those limits, but please let’s stop confusing the two issues.

This should be the same for EMTB’s! Those limits stifle innovation and evolution. If I can pedal my analog bike to 30mph on the flats, then I should be able to do the same thing on my ebike. To hit a 15 or 20mph wall at that speed is ridiculous.

Again, no one is stopping you from going 80 km/h on a pedelec. I regularly go over 50 km/h myself. The issue is the assistance provided by the electric motor.

 

[irie]

And if I can pedal to 28mph, rather than 15 or 20, it doesn’t matter!

Then pedal your bike up to 28mph after the motor has ceased providing assistance. Simples.