Industry Veteran Hans Rey Calls for Clearer E-Bike Definitions

[B1rdie]

Hans has lived in California, so I guess he can clearly foresee the trails where he rides mtb looking like the roads he rides on the way back home. Some people may think that having law enforcement, radars, face detection, plate numbers... would be nice.
His question is more about having emtbs being considered the same as bikes, from all environmental stakeholders envolved, and how long this will be pushed, on our new era of abuse, untill ebiking is banned from trails.
You may believe Hans is just speaking out with the feeling of someone who's in the hall of fame of mtb, or think that he needs bosch money, cause, you know, he's been advertising his Laguna beach house at airbnb.

 

[Plyphon]

They’re restricted because an 80-100kg (excl rider) machine that can travel with ease at 30mph has no business mixing with pedestrians and cyclists.

Right, so they're restricted due to their speed and the potential for injury to others that the speed provides.

Ebikes are already limited by speed in the UK.

So why are we also talking about limiting power? If we've established that speed is the metric by which we're limiting.

More power doesn't mean you go faster. It doesn't even necessarily mean you accelerate faster with the right tune and gearing. It just means you have more power when you need it for more extreme climbing.

So why is everyone talking about power? We already limit speed.

 

[Tetley]

Right, so they're restricted due to their speed and the potential for injury to others that the speed provides.

Ebikes are already limited by speed in the UK.

So why are we also talking about limiting power? If we've established that speed is the metric by which we're limiting.

More power doesn't mean you go faster. It doesn't even necessarily mean you accelerate faster with the right tune and gearing. It just means you have more power when you need it for more extreme climbing.

So why is everyone talking about power? We already limit speed.

We are talking about power due to the seemingly completely unregulated loophole of peak power.
Most places are well regulated re maximum assisted speed, pedal assist only - no self powered or throttle, and 250W nominal power. But this has left wide open the possibility of insane peak power, as long as they can show long term running of no more than 250W.
My 2020 Levo climbs really well, at around 750W peak, but never seems to run out of peak power, and drop down to 250W. Is this because it eventually will after a very long climb - How long is a very long climb, how long is peak allowed to be sustained? I assume this is governed by the temperatures of the motor and battery?

 

[Fangs2k]

So why is everyone talking about power? We already limit speed.

I don’t know, why is everybody talking about power?

electric mopeds etc are banned from trails you can ride a normal pedal assist bike on due to extra mass and having a throttle (ie you don’t have to pedal them to get assistance) as well as the speed, and a motorised 30mph is nearly twice that of an assisted legal pedalec e-bike.

Is anybody seriously arguing for electric motorbikes to be ok on shared trails? It’s a rhetorical question, clearly some people are, but perhaps not here in the UK.

I’ve actually got no problem with ‘more power’ within the existing regulations, if they’re deemed legal then they’re legal. I do have a problem with geo-unlocked/jail broken e-bikes using the same trails as everybody else though. It risks trail access for everybody, or will spoil it for us all if that’s easier to understand.

Maybe it’s different in other parts of the world, but we do risk losing legal access to trails if this isn’t gripped, and I don’t really fancy having to break the law every time I want to go ride my local trail on my e-bikes.

Everybody who purchased a legal e-bike with assist limits knew what they were when they purchased them, why do people buy them if they’re not happy?

 

[Mr-EPIC]

The main problem related to the ebike/emoto issue is the people in government and parents in the USA making the decisions do NOT understand ebike/emoto tech. Simply the classes down to only 2 in USA would help;
Class-1 (eBike): No throttle, Pedal Assist to Move, Top Speed of 24mph, max 750w, max 100nm.
Class-3 (eMoto): Everything else two-wheeled with an electric motor (Throttle, Top Speed, Power, torque unlimited).

 

[CrunchBytes]

I don’t know, why is everybody talking about power?

electric mopeds etc are banned from trails you can ride a normal pedal assist bike on due to extra mass and having a throttle (ie you don’t have to pedal them to get assistance) as well as the speed, and a motorised 30mph is nearly twice that of an assisted legal pedalec e-bike.

Is anybody seriously arguing for electric motorbikes to be ok on shared trails? It’s a rhetorical question, clearly some people are, but perhaps not here in the UK.

I’ve actually got no problem with ‘more power’ within the existing regulations, if they’re deemed legal then they’re legal. I do have a problem with geo-unlocked/jail broken e-bikes using the same trails as everybody else though. It risks trail access for everybody, or will spoil it for us all if that’s easier to understand.

Maybe it’s different in other parts of the world, but we do risk losing legal access to trails if this isn’t gripped, and I don’t really fancy having to break the law every time I want to go ride my local trail on my e-bikes.

Everybody who purchased a legal e-bike with assist limits knew what they were when they purchased them, why do people buy them if they’re not happy?

This is very valid for the UK (and maybe EU). I do worry that with the increase in speed derestrict kits being added to bikes, that there will be a high-profile accident, with subsequent calls for tighter regulation.

Whilst I never have, and will not speed derestrict my eMTB, plenty of my eeb riding mates have (in fact, nearly all of them), and they think it's hilarious to zoom around at up to 30mph on the local (flat) trails. In my opinion, there is very little difference between this and riding a Surron on the trails. This also means that, under UK law, they are no longer bicycles, and are technically e-mopeds, which means you would need appropriate license, registration, MOT, insurance, and as a result cannot be legally ridden on the bike trails/trail centres/bridleways.

Whilst you can argue that the law is wrong, and 20mph would be better (or 25, or 30, or 35... where do you stop?), the law is the law and I do worry that something will happen and we eMTBers will then all be tarred by the same brush and maybe banned from trail centres and other places we ride. I hope that day never happens, but with so many flouting the law, I suspect it will.

It also means I no longer ride with my mates, as I it's no fun beasting myself trying to keep up with a 25+mph rider on the flats. When the fun stops, stop. And, TBH, I'd rather not be associated with such flagrant law breaking behaviour.

If the UK law ever changes and the speed limit is increased (about the only brexit 'benefit' that the Victorian beanpole ever suggested), and if I took advantage, then I would also need an easy way to change a bike back to EU spec as I do take my eebs into Europe/EU and would wish to remain legal over there.

 

[Stihldog]

This sign was recently posted at our trail entrance. It seems to have eliminated the moped, Surron, dirt bike use that we would occasionally see. Not on the trails though.

Most EMTB’s on this mountain arrive on a bike rack (except me) or the back of a truck. The speed limit in this country (and NA) is 20mph. (32kph). I don’t think I’ve never reached those speeds on a DH run. Peddle assist or gravity. Too many obstacles, features, drops, trees …etc.

In 6+ years I’ve only seen 1 EMTB that was de-restriced , and that was DOA. I suspected one other. Regardless of power or speed of an EMTB, tires for our trails are the factor…climbing or descending.

I’m not saying we have perfect conditions …but skill and handling seems to be the priority. Too much speed or power doesn’t matter that much. (Except during a bear attack ).

 

[Ratcliff1893]

When people with small winkles get access to power they don’t possess naturally it goes to their heads!
The limits exceed what most weekend warriors can do under their own steam! Yet they need more… mental

 

[Mario Antony]

Right, so they're restricted due to their speed and the potential for injury to others that the speed provides.

Ebikes are already limited by speed in the UK.

So why are we also talking about limiting power? If we've established that speed is the metric by which we're limiting.

More power doesn't mean you go faster. It doesn't even necessarily mean you accelerate faster with the right tune and gearing. It just means you have more power when you need it for more extreme climbing.

So why is everyone talking about power? We already limit speed.

They are restricted, but speeds can be

This is very valid for the UK (and maybe EU). I do worry that with the increase in speed derestrict kits being added to bikes, that there will be a high-profile accident, with subsequent calls for tighter regulation.

Whilst I never have, and will not speed derestrict my eMTB, plenty of my eeb riding mates have (in fact, nearly all of them), and they think it's hilarious to zoom around at up to 30mph on the local (flat) trails. In my opinion, there is very little difference between this and riding a Surron on the trails. This also means that, under UK law, they are no longer bicycles, and are technically e-mopeds, which means you would need appropriate license, registration, MOT, insurance, and as a result cannot be legally ridden on the bike trails/trail centres/bridleways.

Whilst you can argue that the law is wrong, and 20mph would be better (or 25, or 30, or 35... where do you stop?), the law is the law and I do worry that something will happen and we eMTBers will then all be tarred by the same brush and maybe banned from trail centres and other places we ride. I hope that day never happens, but with so many flouting the law, I suspect it will.

It also means I no longer ride with my mates, as I it's no fun beasting myself trying to keep up with a 25+mph rider on the flats. When the fun stops, stop. And, TBH, I'd rather not be associated with such flagrant law breaking behaviour.

If the UK law ever changes and the speed limit is increased (about the only brexit 'benefit' that the Victorian beanpole ever suggested), and if I took advantage, then I would also need an easy way to change a bike back to EU spec as I do take my eebs into Europe/EU and would wish to remain legal over there.

If the problem would be speed, we would have license plates to be identified.

Roadbikes and XC biked will easily ride above 30km/h and can reach 40ish on the flats. Let alone DH, where skilled riders will easily reach over 50km/h!

I can't find any fun or understand passing by pedestrians (scaring people)/horse riders (endangeroing riders & horses)/bikers (who can also fall or scare) and I ride a derestricted ebike.


When some us, are really keen on speed limit on assistance, and some stating that can lead to accidents if increased, then we should make ALL respect SPEED LIMIT of 25km/h// 20mph).
Being bike, Ebike, etc... which is ridiculous

 

[HandsomeDanNZ]

The speed limit in this country (and NA) is 20mph. (32kph). I don’t think I’ve never reached those speeds on a DH run. Peddle assist or gravity. Too many obstacles, features, drops, trees …etc.

Crikey!
At DH parks, I've regularly exceeded 50kmh on a DH bike. I've crashed doing nearly 60kmh on a particularly quick section of a DH trail at a Bike Park.
On my eBike I am regularly exceeding 30kmh, but don't often get beyond the 45kmh limiter unless on a fire road.
I completely agree that throttles shouldn't be welcome on MTB trails though - it's one of those "where do you stop?" situations, despite there being some very limited throttle-assist eBikes (I'm thinking the "rail trail" type of bikes you see in the hands of your average pensioner).
As for eMotos? Just stop selling them to kids.

 

[MickMTB]

He should've mentioned he's a Bosch ambassador

Didn't realise that,makes sense now,Bosch etc are all playing catch up now,with Avinox etc. I have an older Whyte with an older Bosch motor which I keep with Shreddas on for the grim weather,also have an Amflow PL for the better weather,which I love,better in all respects,I rarely use boost and never use super boost,most of the time I stay in auto,which feels like a normal bike just better(knocks 50 yrs off my 69 year old legs) I don't think the power matters as long as people don't bypass the limit,and they don't behave like dicks. Hans should keep his nose out!

 

[pagheca]

They are restricted, but speeds can be

If the problem would be speed, we would have license plates to be identified.

Roadbikes and XC biked will easily ride above 30km/h and can reach 40ish on the flats. Let alone DH, where skilled riders will easily reach over 50km/h!

That’s a good argument, in my opinion. But it is also worth remembering that bicycles are primarily a means of transportation and are statistically more common in urban areas, especially in the EU, i.e. In dense environments, where ensuring that e-bikes respect assistance limits on flat terrain or uphill is important for public safety, much more so than regulating speeds reached downhill or on hilly roads.

Also, the rule does not say “you cannot go faster than that speed.” It simply states that if a vehicle can maintain speeds above that threshold with motor assistance, it falls into a different category and must comply with a different set of regulations.

At some point, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Making a law complicated, with various exceptions and categories, makes it difficult, or even impossible, to enforce.

 

[Mario Antony]

That’s a good argument, in my opinion. But it is also worth remembering that bicycles are primarily a means of transportation and are statistically more common in urban areas, especially in the EU, i.e. In dense environments, where ensuring that e-bikes respect assistance limits on flat terrain or uphill is important for public safety, much more so than regulating speeds reached downhill or on hilly roads.

Also, the rule does not say “you cannot go faster than that speed.” It simply states that if a vehicle can maintain speeds above that threshold with motor assistance, it falls into a different category and must comply with a different set of regulations.

At some point, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Making a law complicated, with various exceptions and categories, makes it difficult, or even impossible, to enforce.

Thing is, the Human Power you consume to go over 25km/h on an ebike (Full Power), is almost the double of a Bike.

The reasoning being assisted up to xxkm/h, is what makes the rule stupid, because speed limits are already in place for EVERY vehicle on the road.

Laws are made by people, and normally, people that don't understand too much of the issue, and because we've got 25km/h on most countries and 32km/h (20mph) on USA and a few other countries, only reinforce this idea.
IF, it were made by knowlledge people, with experience, and knowing beforehand the market, ALL SPEED LIMITS would be the same.

The difference between 25 and 32, is only 7km/h, which isn't nothing.
And I do believe, if the speed limit were to be 35km/h (in every country), I don't think there would be so much derestricted aparatus or market.
I can be Bias on this, but what you think?

 

[Ride 2d@y]

Meanwhile, flying under the radar is Aventon who has a hardtail under $3000 that has the user select 28 mph. What could possibly go wrong? Or not.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Thing is, the Human Power you consume to go over 25km/h on an ebike (Full Power), is almost the double of a Bike.

The reasoning being assisted up to xxkm/h, is what makes the rule stupid, because speed limits are already in place for EVERY vehicle on the road.

Laws are made by people, and normally, people that don't understand too much of the issue, and because we've got 25km/h on most countries and 32km/h (20mph) on USA and a few other countries, only reinforce this idea.
IF, it were made by knowlledge people, with experience, and knowing beforehand the market, ALL SPEED LIMITS would be the same.

The difference between 25 and 32, is only 7km/h, which isn't nothing.
And I do believe, if the speed limit were to be 35km/h (in every country), I don't think there would be so much derestricted aparatus or market.
I can be Bias on this, but what you think?

Vehicular speed limits differ around the world... so your logic of different limits being "dumb" doesn't reflect reality. Also, how do you figure it takes twice the effort on an ebike to go the same speed as a non-ebike?

Sure, people can pedal their bikes to 20-25 mph... but, it takes real work. The average cyclist isn't zipping around a 25 mph. With ebikes, its a lot easier to achieve and maintain that speed. Pure ignorance, if you think different. A lot of the issue, at least here in the US, is youth/kids riding around whether it has pedals, fake pedals, or throttle... so easy for them to zip around at high rates of speed. If they ACTUALLY had to pedal, they wouldn't and would loose interest really quickly... 100%.

We complain of a 55-60 mph speed limit on most highways the New England part of the US... yet, in most of the EU its 120-140 kph (~80 mph). Sure, a LOT of people don't follow the law and occasionally folks get tickets. They also have licenses, insurance and can be held more accountable for their actions.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Meanwhile, flying under the radar is Aventon who has a hardtail under $3000 that has the user select 28 mph. What could possibly go wrong? Or not.
View attachment 179119

Cough, cough... Specialized. Okay, okay... not for $3000

 

[Onetime]

Hans has lived in California, so I guess he can clearly foresee the trails where he rides mtb looking like the roads he rides on the way back home. Some people may think that having law enforcement, radars, face detection, plate numbers... would be nice.
His question is more about having emtbs being considered the same as bikes, from all environmental stakeholders envolved, and how long this will be pushed, on our new era of abuse, untill ebiking is banned from trails.
You may believe Hans is just speaking out with the feeling of someone who's in the hall of fame of mtb, or think that he needs bosch money, cause, you know, he's been advertising his Laguna beach house at airbnb.

I ride laguna all the time and no, it’s not overrun with surrons blasting the trails. There are plenty of EMTB’s that ride there including mine, however they’re not an issue and the park rangers don’t mind. Having 750w vs 850w or 1000w is not going to change anything on those trails and neither will it if a bike can go 28mph vs 20mph on a flat access road. These attempts at imposing more restrictions are flat out BS and are only a means to keep Bosch competitive with Avinox and Specialized, (and my ebike is Bosch powered). Hans is a sellout plain and simple. It’s sad too because I WAS always a fan.

 

[Mario Antony]

Vehicular speed limits differ around the world... so your logic of different limits being "dumb" doesn't reflect reality. Also, how do you figure it takes twice the effort on an ebike to go the same speed as a non-ebike?

Sure, people can pedal their bikes to 20-25 mph... but, it takes real work. The average cyclist isn't zipping around a 25 mph. With ebikes, its a lot easier to achieve and maintain that speed. Pure ignorance, if you think different. A lot of the issue, at least here in the US, is youth/kids riding around whether it has pedals, fake pedals, or throttle... so easy for them to zip around at high rates of speed. If they ACTUALLY had to pedal, they wouldn't and would loose interest really quickly... 100%.

We complain of a 55-60 mph speed limit on most highways the New England part of the US... yet, in most of the EU its 120-140 kph (~80 mph). Sure, a LOT of people don't follow the law and occasionally folks get tickets. They also have licenses, insurance and can be held more accountable for their actions.

Sure the speed limits are different.
Have a look at the road/Highways in Europe and USA.
USA is huge, and only visit a few places mainly: (Indiana/DC-Colombia/NY)
The Highways are no where closed to what you have in France/Germany/NL/Italy/Spain/Portugal, where speed limit is between 120km/h and 130km/h (75mph // 80mph), so no, Highway speed limits don't differ to much (70//75mph), and infraestrutur, in USA is, from.what I've seen, a bit bellow UE standards.

If you see the issue of kids not wanting to pedal, then, I'm sure you are aware that most in here, use pedalecs, not throttle operated ebikes.
We don't have many kids around, riding Surrons, or doing stupid stuff.
Over here it's more moped (small ones), and it's not even a speed issue, it's more not respecting anything.

So in resume previous posts:
Power will be self limit, if you want any acceptable range
Speed, will always be limit by final drive

 

[Fangs2k]

Hans should keep his nose out!

Then so should all the Avinox ambassadors, surely?

Hans is a sellout plain and simple. It’s sad too because I WAS always a fan.

Why is Hans a sellout? Doesn’t that mean anybody sponsored by Avinox (or gifted bikes for reviews) is a sellout as well?

It’s been explained why power limits aren’t ‘BS’, if you feel they are then fair enough but the debate is about more than what works for the US.

 

[B1rdie]

I ride laguna all the time and no, it’s not overrun with surrons blasting the trails. There are plenty of EMTB’s that ride there including mine, however they’re not an issue and the park rangers don’t mind. Having 750w vs 850w or 1000w is not going to change anything on those trails and neither will it if a bike can go 28mph vs 20mph on a flat access road. These attempts at imposing more restrictions are flat out BS and are only a means to keep Bosch competitive with Avinox and Specialized, (and my ebike is Bosch powered). Hans is a sellout plain and simple. It’s sad too because I WAS always a fan.

I bypassed Laguna last year, on a trip to Utah to ride Park City trails. Maybe ebikes are doing fine at your place, but, if you check trailforks app, looking for ebike trails in Park City, you'll get 3, search for mtb instead, and it shows hundreds...
Only last year Park City opened their trails for ebikers 65+ yo, so I could enjoy some wonderful rides for free. I hope they get good feedback and keep the move so we can see more trails opening for general ebikers.
About hating Hans, well I started hating him many years ago when he campaingned against the two step forks, by saying that, when lowered in the climbs, the two step forks presented a "drag" . Well as someone who climbed more than 70.000 meters a year I loved two step forks.
But, opinions may vary but the fact is that the boundaries of a so considered "assisted mtb" should be clear and should be respected by the industry.

 

[Deleted member 37410]

I wouldn't mind more power, but I am limited by the battery size more then anything. I don't need more power as it just results in less range. That said, I cant wait for battery tech to double in efficiency, that will be awesome

As for trail access etc, I am not sure it makes a big difference. I think the main reason people hate e-bikes (e-mtb in particular) is the unapologetic joy of riding them. Its just pure fun, like being a child again fun. People see that and they want to take it away (or join in).

Maybe more power -> more joy -> more jealousy -> less trail access

 

[Mario Antony]

I wouldn't mind more power, but I am limited by the battery size more then anything. I don't need more power as it just results in less range. That said, I cant wait for battery tech to double in efficiency, that will be awesome

As for trail access etc, I am not sure it makes a big difference. I think the main reason people hate e-bikes (e-mtb in particular) is the unapologetic joy of riding them. Its just pure fun, like being a child again fun. People see that and they want to take it away (or join in).

Maybe more power -> more joy -> more jealousy -> less trail access

The only reason people hate ebikes, is because they can't afford one.
Initially I wouldn't buy one, because I was fit (±12000km/year road and mtb), but I wouldn't care less for ebikes or people "invading" trails with ebikes...

Today, I mostly ride ebike, and care less for nonsayers, or haters.

Life is so short for so much negativity!

Having now the bike derestricted, I'm really not into "MOWPOWA", because the CX4 and eMTB+, is just a blast, with only 400%, 85Nm and 600W of power.
And most of the time, I ride in modes, customed (less power = more range)
No need for more

 

[DIomidis]

The "anti-regulation" crowd is missing the point: it’s about trail access. If we ignore power and speed limits, there is no logical reason to ban dirt bikes from MTB trails. Throttles and high wattage allow inexperienced riders to reach dangerous speeds and damage trails through burnouts and drifting—activities they rarely spend time or money to repair.

While a strong rider can and does hit 20mph on a pedal bike & flat+smooth terrain, the average "weekend warrior" can't sustain that on knobby tires. I don't think you run Mezcals and Racekings on your eMTB, do you? Even with a 60Nm bike, you climb uphill at least 2x and often 3x as fast as you could under your own power.

Yet "we need more"...no, you frikkin don't. Would it be fun? Hell yes. But not on shared paths with other bikes and hikers and equestrians.
200mph in a car would be fun too, but ... not in public streets.

High-powered eMTBs create a massive speed delta that intimidates hikers and traditional cyclists. Manufacturers like DJI pushing the limits with "boost modes" and Specialized introducing Class II modes etc, only invites stricter classification. If we keep pushing the "inch" we were given into a mile, we’ll all end up classified as e-motos and banned from public land. If you want a Surron, buy one along with a trailer and ride it on your backyard, dirt bike tracks and jeep paths etc — insisting on de-restricting bikes - when 750W peak power is already 3x what the law allows for, risks ruining bicycle access for the rest of us.

 

[Deleted member 37410]

People keep telling me I want a Surron

 

[irie]

No Karen, you and all of the other Karens are quite wrong. Avinox and Specialized are not going to ruin access or damage trails or frighten anyone and surrons are not going to take over MTB trails. That’s just a massive amount of paranoia. The sky isn’t going to fall, so for fucks sake, just take a chill pill and go for a ride, and stop worrying about what Avinox and Specialized are doing. Competition is good for the sport and for the consumer.

In the absence of the ability to argue against inconvenient opposing views it is convenient for the hard and/or lazy of thinking to dismiss those making those opposing arguments as "Karens".

 

[Mario Antony]

The "anti-regulation" crowd is missing the point: it’s about trail access. If we ignore power and speed limits, there is no logical reason to ban dirt bikes from MTB trails. Throttles and high wattage allow inexperienced riders to reach dangerous speeds and damage trails through burnouts and drifting—activities they rarely spend time or money to repair.

While a strong rider can and does hit 20mph on a pedal bike & flat+smooth terrain, the average "weekend warrior" can't sustain that on knobby tires. I don't think you run Mezcals and Racekings on your eMTB, do you? Even with a 60Nm bike, you climb uphill at least 2x and often 3x as fast as you could under your own power.

Yet "we need more"...no, you frikkin don't. Would it be fun? Hell yes. But not on shared paths with other bikes and hikers and equestrians.
200mph in a car would be fun too, but ... not in public streets.

High-powered eMTBs create a massive speed delta that intimidates hikers and traditional cyclists. Manufacturers like DJI pushing the limits with "boost modes" and Specialized introducing Class II modes etc, only invites stricter classification. If we keep pushing the "inch" we were given into a mile, we’ll all end up classified as e-motos and banned from public land. If you want a Surron, buy one along with a trailer and ride it on your backyard, dirt bike tracks and jeep paths etc — insisting on de-restricting bikes - when 750W peak power is already 3x what the law allows for, risks ruining bicycle access for the rest of us.

1st- it's not +0.3KW (0.75KW to 1.1KW) that will do any significant difference on the trails, but will help for sure, those less physical, aged or with disability.
Who wants better range from their ebike, it's normal to DECREASE power.

2nd- Dirtbikes are between 20KW and 65KW, or 15KW and 65KW if want to account for Surrons, etc
The difference between Ebikes, and Dirtbiked, is that one passage, having fun (sliding around, etc), on a Dirtbike, will destroy most trails.
I did a few trails in my land, by only passing with the dirt bike a few times!

3rd- Max speed on ebikes, are normally done on DH. It really doesn't matter if you're on an Ebike or a Bike, if you hit someone at +50km/h! Every rider is responsible to adequate their speed to trail conditions & "traffic".
Passing close by pedestrians/other riders at full speed, besides the obvious danger, it can lead to potential physical damage, death. This applies to Bikes, Ebikes, scooters, etc.


NOW...
SURRONS are not an EBIKEs
SURRONS are EMotorcycle, why?
- no pedals
- throttle operated
- over 50kg weight (70kg, if memory don't fail)
- XXxxx (5digit) Watts of power meaning, 10x to 15x more power than an Ebike

Dirtbikes, are like +100kg, +20KW, and on soft/lose terrain, it's more similar to agricultural machinery.

For Trail Access
I would definitely try to be part of Trail Building, and/or have active voice.
Because not everyone has the time to fix trails every now and then, donate for local group.

Agreeing with limitations (Speed/Power), is confirming that riders (ALL), need to be self regulated.

As refered over and over on previous posts:

Power will be self regulated due to range
Speed will be limited by final drive (on eMTB, at least!)

 

[pagheca]

Vehicular speed limits differ around the world... so your logic of different limits being "dumb" doesn't reflect reality. Also, how do you figure it takes twice the effort on an ebike to go the same speed as a non-ebike?

Sure, people can pedal their bikes to 20-25 mph... but, it takes real work. The average cyclist isn't zipping around a 25 mph. With ebikes, its a lot easier to achieve and maintain that speed. Pure ignorance, if you think different. A lot of the issue, at least here in the US, is youth/kids riding around whether it has pedals, fake pedals, or throttle... so easy for them to zip around at high rates of speed. If they ACTUALLY had to pedal, they wouldn't and would loose interest really quickly... 100%.

We complain of a 55-60 mph speed limit on most highways the New England part of the US... yet, in most of the EU its 120-140 kph (~80 mph). Sure, a LOT of people don't follow the law and occasionally folks get tickets. They also have licenses, insurance and can be held more accountable for their actions.

One also has to consider that European towns are very different from many in North America. In places like Bologna, Rome, or Paris, streets are often narrow and centuries old, and widening them would mean demolishing historic buildings, which is simply not an option. As a result, cycle paths tend to be narrow and sometimes have to share space with car traffic.

The same is often true outside towns, where cycling routes can be winding, narrow, and not designed for heavy or high-speed traffic, especially in hilly areas.

And these are precisely the places where most people actually ride their bicycles—not isolated off-road trails, that are, however, shared with a lot of pedestrians, hikers, and often children.

In much of Europe, bicycles and e-bikes are generally considered a sustainable and healthy basic means of transportation rather than a recreational vehicle for speeding downhill at 50 km/h and risking running into someone. Population density is high almost everywhere, so spaces are shared much more closely.

 

[Ride 2d@y]

The "anti-regulation" crowd is missing the point: it’s about trail access. If we ignore power and speed limits, there is no logical reason to ban dirt bikes from MTB trails. Throttles and high wattage allow inexperienced riders to reach dangerous speeds and damage trails through burnouts and drifting—activities they rarely spend time or money to repair.

While a strong rider can and does hit 20mph on a pedal bike & flat+smooth terrain, the average "weekend warrior" can't sustain that on knobby tires. I don't think you run Mezcals and Racekings on your eMTB, do you? Even with a 60Nm bike, you climb uphill at least 2x and often 3x as fast as you could under your own power.

Yet "we need more"...no, you frikkin don't. Would it be fun? Hell yes. But not on shared paths with other bikes and hikers and equestrians.
200mph in a car would be fun too, but ... not in public streets.

High-powered eMTBs create a massive speed delta that intimidates hikers and traditional cyclists. Manufacturers like DJI pushing the limits with "boost modes" and Specialized introducing Class II modes etc, only invites stricter classification. If we keep pushing the "inch" we were given into a mile, we’ll all end up classified as e-motos and banned from public land. If you want a Surron, buy one along with a trailer and ride it on your backyard, dirt bike tracks and jeep paths etc — insisting on de-restricting bikes - when 750W peak power is already 3x what the law allows for, risks ruining bicycle access for the rest of us.

Out of curiosity, do you own a EMTB or have you ever ridden one? Can you see any positives in riding an e-bike, for yourself or anyone else? In my case, I happen to really value class 3 - so I don’t have to fire up my RAV-4 and drive it the trailhead. Nothing sinister about that. Otherwise, I ride safely and ride within my limits. I love riding bikes and e-bikes too.

 

[Onetime]

In the absence of the ability to argue against inconvenient opposing views it is convenient for the hard and/or lazy of thinking to dismiss those making those opposing arguments as "Karens".

Jeez bro, I made this really simple so you lot could understand, and you still don’t get it. Reading comprehension is apparently too difficult for you. Rather than repeating your same lame comment, go back and re-read my posts on this topic and try some critical thinking. If at that point you still don’t get it, then try to understand that you’re definitely a Karen and there’s no helping you.

 

[irie]

Jeez bro, I made this really simple so you lot could understand, and you still don’t get it. Reading comprehension is apparently too difficult for you. Rather than repeating your same lame comment, go back and re-read my posts on this topic and try some critical thinking. If at that point you still don’t get it, then try to understand that you’re definitely a Karen and there’s no helping you.

"When the debate is lost, insults become the loser's tool."

(Commonly attributed to Socrates).