- Thread starter
- #61
Yes, to take up chain slack btw largest and smallest cog
Ideal EMTB drive train (shifting, not motor)
- Thread starter jever98
- Start date
That is correct.
Blownoutrides
Active member
Thanks. Makes complete sense now.
I feel like there are some knock on negative effects of the long cage derailleurs that don't get talked about.
I swapped a bike from a 12 sp AXS to an 11 sp X01 and I could have sworn I felt a considerably nicer rear suspension as a result, the feedback felt lessened. The chain is shorter, the 11sp derailleur has a much stiffer clutch & I also dropped .6# right off the rear wheel. I can't be certain, I'm not a finely tuned machine but I was just thinking 'man my rear shock finally seems really good today and I didn't change a thing...' This happened before PK talk was even a thing.
I swapped a bike from a 12 sp AXS to an 11 sp X01 and I could have sworn I felt a considerably nicer rear suspension as a result, the feedback felt lessened. The chain is shorter, the 11sp derailleur has a much stiffer clutch & I also dropped .6# right off the rear wheel. I can't be certain, I'm not a finely tuned machine but I was just thinking 'man my rear shock finally seems really good today and I didn't change a thing...' This happened before PK talk was even a thing.
Wilbur
Active member
Yerp, and how many times does someone in your group have problems with a flat derailleur battery or the shifter silver oxide or the hardwired battery connection or a firmware bug causing shifting issues etc..
I say 'you know they still make LinkGlide right?'
I look after a datacentre during the week, I don't want to be troubleshooting tech on my rides.
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KillerbeeDH
New Member
It doesn't work that way. There is far less maintenance of todays electronic shifting than the mechanical alternative. It may not sound intuitive, but the truth comes out in practice. Pay less attention to what you read. To answer this thread, the most sensible electronic option to lower risk to the der on a 27.5 is the short cage DI2 12-sp with a 9-45t or 10-45t. I would source a steel multispline freehub though, if available (They are for Mavic and Enve). The XTR chain is pretty darn hearty. I think I disagree with the chain graph I saw earlier. I cant stretch the XTR chain at all on a pedal bike, and have not broken one in over 10,000 miles. You do have to avoid the counterfeits, but these blow me away after many years of snapping chains every 3-4 months.
KillerbeeDH
New Member
But if I was writing my own custom order for an ebike, it would be an 8-speed, 9-36t (9-11-13-16-20-25-30-36) with a short cage electronic, powered by the bike, with integration for coast shifting and shift defuel. 34t chainring. For a low power ebike in the mountains maybe up that to a 40t 9-speed cassette, but a 36t will bring the shorter cage up around 3" compared to a 51t and long cage. So much less impact risk.
The 9t would need to be a legit 9t independent of the 11t. I think these shimano 9t designs may not survive, but I would love to hear from someone who uses one on a full power. I use the 9-45t on my Ranger, and love it, but the way the 9t piggybacks on the 11t doesnt look like it will take 80N for long. I could be wrong. For that matter, the integration software could be made to place a torque limit for the smaller rings.
The 9t would need to be a legit 9t independent of the 11t. I think these shimano 9t designs may not survive, but I would love to hear from someone who uses one on a full power. I use the 9-45t on my Ranger, and love it, but the way the 9t piggybacks on the 11t doesnt look like it will take 80N for long. I could be wrong. For that matter, the integration software could be made to place a torque limit for the smaller rings.
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D
Deleted member 37410
Guest
I had endless fiddling with the AXS that came with my kenevo, in practice. And so far zero fiddling with linkglide, also in practice! Granted this was not powered by the main battery
My custom order would be a new MGU belt drive with no derailleur at all, and an easily accessible "NZ mode"
That said your version with optimal short cage sounds cool! If I get coast shifting I might finally see a significant upside to the electronics
KillerbeeDH
New Member
What were the problems that you could not reconcile, in contrast to mechanical? I was not an easy sell into electronic shifting, but the shear reduction in time messing with my drivetrain, plus its reliability is what sold me, only after a year. NOT a fan of axs tactile (lack of) feel though.
D
Deleted member 37410
Guest
Hmm lets see:
- Maintaining dieletric grease on pogo pins
- Changing battery / charging battery
- Remembering to keep an eye on battery level
- Running out of battery
- Once running out of the remote battery on a ride
- Battery working like shit in really cold temps, had to buy extras
- Messing around with an app (This can kind of be avoided)
- Derailleur seeming to be slightly bent or something, after about 6 months had a hard time getting all 12 gears good, without any particular incident
- Slowly figuring out that you cant actually individually adjust the gears (app has really misleading UI here)
- Remote button clicks sometimes not taking, like I could press too quickly or something
- Lack of tactile feel as you say
- Not being able to tell which gear I am in, this led to syncing it with the TCU so I can see the number
I am not saying these are irreconcilable, just that they were maintenance issues/fiddling
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Deleted member 37410
Guest
Things I actually liked and miss:
- Removing the derailleur / shifter was super easy
- I will miss the lack of cable once I need to change housing in a season or so
- Microadjustment on electrical feels more reliable then turning the knob on the cable
"Ideal EMTB drive train (shifting, not motor)"
Mechanical, and if it breaks is really easy to fix with parts that are readily available.
Batteries are just something else to fail. Even if it runs off the motor battery then if, for example, a wire comes loose you're fucked.
No thanks.
Mechanical, and if it breaks is really easy to fix with parts that are readily available.
Batteries are just something else to fail. Even if it runs off the motor battery then if, for example, a wire comes loose you're fucked.
No thanks.
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KillerbeeDH
New Member
I admit, I live in warm dry weather, and that is probably a best case scenario for electronic shifting. You oddly didnt experience pogo pin failure, the main quality failure with AXS.
But why did you not wire the AXS der to the bike? That resolves HALF your complaints at the same time, if you refuse to keep a spare on hand. Also remembering that the battery drains with any motion (bad idea sram) a tough lesson to learn when traveling with the bike. The other items just sound like, well, frivolous whining. (Navigator: "Hey pilot, what will we do if the HUD goes dark?" ) Look at the cassette if you really need the visual. If you need a gear display, you might be in the wrong sport. I cant think of a reason I would need a gear display as long as I have to pedal to move. My eyes are too busy already. I became one with the bike 30 years ago on the 3x7. I had gear indicators once on xt index shifters, I thought that would be useful but came to realize they served no useful purpose.
Or just ignore Mr old school.
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KillerbeeDH
New Member
This sounds funny on an e-bike forum.
You do understand that every other part of Motor system has a wire run to it ? So you are still in trouble if a wire comes loose, regardless of whether your derailleur is wired.
I've had both electronic and cabled and the electronic for me is considerably less reliable and importantly rarely field fixable.
They do work well, the electronics of course, but eventually there's a battery failure or a parallelogram failure or you can't get some gear right. It's just a matter of time.
I don't think I've ever in my entire riding history had a cable shifting system give me more issues than just needing a Trailside adjustment.
Heck I've never even had to replace a cable housing
They do work well, the electronics of course, but eventually there's a battery failure or a parallelogram failure or you can't get some gear right. It's just a matter of time.
I don't think I've ever in my entire riding history had a cable shifting system give me more issues than just needing a Trailside adjustment.
Heck I've never even had to replace a cable housing
It has been the complete opposite for me. Never had an issue with electronic in the field. I did bend a cage. I simply opened the SRAM App and micro-adjusted the derailleur back into perfect shifting.
When I got home. I straightened the cage, and micro-adjusted it back. It couldn't be a simpler fix. Never ever need to touch the limits. And no B-Screw to mess with.
Meanwhile ....... Those bloody shift cables. I've had them stick. I've had them break. I've had them shift up the cassette fine, but stick on the way down, after going through mud.
I've had the limits move, meaning the chain kept coming off. I've had the B-screw move, giving crap shifting. They are a massive PITA compared to SRAM AXS Transmission.
With electronic, I can shift whilst not pedalling, which has saved my bacon on many occasions. Whilst most of the time, it probably just prevented a dismount. But sometimes if you stall because you weren't able to grab the correct gear, I had nowhere to place my foot, and fell sideways, hurting, wrists, elbows and knees.
Hence I will never buy another EMTB without fitting Electronic Shifting. The Teewing Flux I'm looking to buy comes with mechanical SRAM Eagle 90. I will buy and fit the GX AXS conversion kit, before riding it on a trail.
I understand that some people have spent their whole lives with mechanical shift cables, and are scared of new innovation. But IMO, it is worth the reward of going electronic T-Type.
And lastly ....... Ask yourself. What are the DH, Enduro and XC racers using. It is almost exclusively Electronic.
I was under the, apparently mistaken, impression that this thread is about:
Ideal EMTB drive train (shifting, not motor)
hth the hard of reading "Golden Boy · From Sydney Australia"
D
Deleted member 37410
Guest
First thing I did getting the bike was adding dielectric grease to the pins, and kept that maintained. I forgot that in my list, thanks for reminding me (will edit list)
No whining on my part, just a friendly response to your request on my list of issues. Just one correction: I dont need the numbers on mechanical, since it has a tactile feedback my mind just knows what approximate gear I am in
Regarding wiring to the bike, I did buy a small 12V to 7.4V converter and a Brose compatible front light cable to DIY this for the Kenevo, but with all the other papercuts I eventually decided against that investment. And I am very happy I did since link glide shifts much better under load
Huh ? I'm talking about shifting.I was under the, apparently mistaken, impression that this thread is about:
Ideal EMTB drive train (shifting, not motor)
hth the hard of reading "Golden Boy · From Sydney Australia"
EMTBs require many wires. So why would removing the derailleur wire(Hence Shifting Wire) suddenly cure any loose wire failures ? Your statement makes no sense.
And BTW. You are much more likely to have a mechanical cable and sheath fail, than a properly terminated electrical cable. There no mechanical forces in an electrical cable. And if properly terminated, you don't get the ingress of mud and dirt.
With a mechanical cable and sheath. There must be space between the sheath and cable, which always lets dirt and contaminants in. It's the major reason for them wearing out and failing.
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I have a Druid CorE, and after about 400mi my GX t-type chain is already worn. I can't be bothered to use wax over normal chain lube like Muckoff C3 and I clean the chain pretty regularly. I'm not too interested in adding to my maintenance routine, or two chain rotation, etc. I'm also not very interested in replacing chains often. So I decided to do some research here and other threads on better options than Transmission (which I've been using for last few years on my Analog bikes also). I just want a drivetrain that can take the abuse of an Avinox M1 and in soil that has a lot of sand in it.
I decided to go with a 10sp linkglide 11-39T Steel cassette (which actually weighs the same as my 10-52T XS-1270 its replacing), and a Madrone Jab with a linkglide cam and a short cage. Going to try different chains, for now I have a KMC E10. The Madrone Jab is about 150g lighter than the X0 AXS derailleur, but the shifter and cable is about 150g heaver than the AXS Pod, so they ended up at the same weight in the end (literally they are a few grams difference), but I'm saving 150g of unsprung weight in the rear and a lot more ground clearance, how much do those matter? not sure but every bit helps.
I went with 10sp LG b/c everyone talks about how durable it is and nice it shifts under load, also I read that Shimano made 10sp LG compatible with other 10sp shifters and derailleurs (HG, Microshift - maybe Saint/Zee?) so I figured if I didn't like the deore 10sp shifter I had other options to try. I chose 11-39T because I found that I never even shifted lower than 4th gear even starting on steeps, and even then usually 5th gear. 11T isn't ideal. I would love to see a 9T option, I might try 36T CR instead, since I rarely use the 39T either.
Also went with the Jab b/c it seemed like it was a tank (and a work of art), and I read someone else doing this with a 10sp LG. I also really like MadroneCycles values as far as being home mechanic friendly, and I like the strong, but also adjustable clutch. The chain is nice and quiet.
I only have about 80mi on it so far, but pretty happy. It shifts like a dream compared to my outgoing transmission and I forgot how much I liked Shimano's finger shifting. It's also not complained one bit when I need to change gears quickly out of 10th gear, even the transmission would sometimes start skipping if I wasn't careful enough and then the bikes overrun won't let it grab until I stop pedaling completely and I'm forced off the bike to get it in a better gear.
The only thing I really miss is the coast shifting, but not enough to care much. I thought I'd miss the pod shifter, but the crisp shifting of the Jab and the finger shift feature really make for a good experience. Also the Avinox gear display doesn't work well anymore, it thinks I have 2-11 gears instead of 1-10 gears, not sure if I could calibrate that, also the settings doesn't have an option for a 36T CR even though Forbidden manual says the bike supports up to 36T CR, not really sure how that value affects the ride experience.
I decided to go with a 10sp linkglide 11-39T Steel cassette (which actually weighs the same as my 10-52T XS-1270 its replacing), and a Madrone Jab with a linkglide cam and a short cage. Going to try different chains, for now I have a KMC E10. The Madrone Jab is about 150g lighter than the X0 AXS derailleur, but the shifter and cable is about 150g heaver than the AXS Pod, so they ended up at the same weight in the end (literally they are a few grams difference), but I'm saving 150g of unsprung weight in the rear and a lot more ground clearance, how much do those matter? not sure but every bit helps.
I went with 10sp LG b/c everyone talks about how durable it is and nice it shifts under load, also I read that Shimano made 10sp LG compatible with other 10sp shifters and derailleurs (HG, Microshift - maybe Saint/Zee?) so I figured if I didn't like the deore 10sp shifter I had other options to try. I chose 11-39T because I found that I never even shifted lower than 4th gear even starting on steeps, and even then usually 5th gear. 11T isn't ideal. I would love to see a 9T option, I might try 36T CR instead, since I rarely use the 39T either.
Also went with the Jab b/c it seemed like it was a tank (and a work of art), and I read someone else doing this with a 10sp LG. I also really like MadroneCycles values as far as being home mechanic friendly, and I like the strong, but also adjustable clutch. The chain is nice and quiet.
I only have about 80mi on it so far, but pretty happy. It shifts like a dream compared to my outgoing transmission and I forgot how much I liked Shimano's finger shifting. It's also not complained one bit when I need to change gears quickly out of 10th gear, even the transmission would sometimes start skipping if I wasn't careful enough and then the bikes overrun won't let it grab until I stop pedaling completely and I'm forced off the bike to get it in a better gear.
The only thing I really miss is the coast shifting, but not enough to care much. I thought I'd miss the pod shifter, but the crisp shifting of the Jab and the finger shift feature really make for a good experience. Also the Avinox gear display doesn't work well anymore, it thinks I have 2-11 gears instead of 1-10 gears, not sure if I could calibrate that, also the settings doesn't have an option for a 36T CR even though Forbidden manual says the bike supports up to 36T CR, not really sure how that value affects the ride experience.
TheKaiser
Active member
Thanks for the info, I've been considering a similar setup. Coast shift seems like the only advantage to going to electronic to me, and given that I have made do without it for years, I'm uncertain how much is really enhances the ride experience.
On that note, I've been wondering, given that a lot of these motor settings include overrun, has anyone found that they can achieve something similar to coast shift just by giving a quick pedal kick (not a full revolution) combined with a shift? That would keep one from having to do a full pedal circle and risk pedal strikes, but allow you to shift a few gears for upcoming grade changes. Obviously you couldn't get across the whole stack that way, but I'm just curious if that could be a sort of middle ground, or if the overrun is insufficient to get a few gears up/down the stack.
This is the answer I was looking for, I am going the same route on my heckler after enjoying it on my Bronson. Who needs 12 speeds !!!
I'm running a WheelTop electric derailleur combined with a Sram X01 11sp cassette.
It's all very light, it's priced well, the cassette is all steel, the derailleur is tucked up nicely, it shifts darn well (but not quite at Transmission levels), the 1st gear off 42t is plenty low enough to climb anything, heck I even prefer the shifter over Sram stuff... highly recommended.
It's all very light, it's priced well, the cassette is all steel, the derailleur is tucked up nicely, it shifts darn well (but not quite at Transmission levels), the 1st gear off 42t is plenty low enough to climb anything, heck I even prefer the shifter over Sram stuff... highly recommended.
- Thread starter
- #87
Infinitely better bike. It doesn't have that brittle feel of the Relay, it's better balanced. Using the same shock the rear suspension is much better. Ignore the motor, it's just a better bike, by a lot.
Unfortunately, I blew out my knee and have an MRI scheduled in 2 days, so not riding any more at the moment.
- Thread starter
- #89
Sorry to hear about the knee.
What is a brittle feeling bike?
Infinitely better? Gotta love the nuanced appraisal
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