A treat for all of us.
Have Avinox given us a good thing (or not)?
- Thread starter nickf
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ObiWanBenobi
New Member
- Mar 4, 2026
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Lovely.
I still don't understand how people think Avinox are breaking the rules.
I think it just goes to show that no matter how the rules are written there are ways to work with them and around them to extract maximum performance and this will always be the goal for progression - see F1 for examples.
Several posts were deleted yet somehow things continued to decline.
Therefore ObiwanBenobi has been banned for bad language, ignoring warnings, being impolite to fellow forum members, having twin accounts. Remember people of all ages can read these threads and could be influenced by your wisdom or lack of.
Maybe we can continue the thread using post #1 as a guide and if possible avoid the same constant circular discussion which has been already discussed too many times to mention, unless you have something new or interesting to offer.
Therefore ObiwanBenobi has been banned for bad language, ignoring warnings, being impolite to fellow forum members, having twin accounts. Remember people of all ages can read these threads and could be influenced by your wisdom or lack of.
Maybe we can continue the thread using post #1 as a guide and if possible avoid the same constant circular discussion which has been already discussed too many times to mention, unless you have something new or interesting to offer.
mr.skywalker
Member
From the US side it has been mentioned about New Jersey regulations. For those who dont know it was the surrons/emotos that started that fire as a kid was killed hitting a car that sparked it. Now they have put a regulation on any e-powered or assisted machine that they are not allowed on any roads without full registration and full DOT approved helmet to operate. This is the concern as this law doesnt distinguish a class 1 or full emoto, they are are all epowered and require registration, which most dont even have vins to properly register to start with. Its basically making it easier for law enforcement as they dont have to try and figure out if its class 1, class 2, class 3, or emoto, just does it have any sort of power? just show me registration and your helmet sticker. This is why Im 100% against any sort or government regulation as the law makers are so out of touch with reality and are just trying to feed the publicity of doing something to get good rating for the "greater good" when its actually very destructive to the community that is law abiding to start with. On top of that mopeds/motorized bicycles have been around for decades providing transport for those who dont hav means of owning a car(ive used motorized bicycle for getting to high school and college even before I had a liscence). Ive owned a surron and never did anything I didnt do as a kid riding dirtbikes on private property which may have had some neighborhood roads to get ther but I wasnt acting a hooligan on the streets and I used to ride wheelies on my bmx all over town but never did it like these kids do today where they seem to get credit for cutting close to bystanders. Point is its parents responsibility to insure their kids follow rules/laws(my neighborhood has kids that have no respect for others where we would have got a beating for the stuff these kids do now) or if you are old enough to be responsible for you own actions there are already laws you need to follow,we dont need more.
How does it relate to avinox? The avinox is so low powered in the grand scheme of things and there have been more powerful 2 wheeled machines allowed on roads and(some) trails they arent the main focus of laws but they may be blamed when ill informed law makers make blanket bans or regulations from others misbehavior. As long as they dont add a throttle its still closer to mtb than any true emoto as emotos are coming 25kw(25,000w) and minimum is about 8kw now so a 1500w pedal assisted bike is nothing when compared. Bikes like Bonnel are where it gets into the confusing area as they have both pedals and a throttle and I have that same motor(older lower powered version with up 3500w vs 6000w) but it can actually be setup as class 1 automatically when you turn it on and throttle only activates in race mode which can only be switched in 1st 15seconds the bike is turned on. This is where personal responsibility is key with bikes like that but if that gets regulated it makes sense
How does it relate to avinox? The avinox is so low powered in the grand scheme of things and there have been more powerful 2 wheeled machines allowed on roads and(some) trails they arent the main focus of laws but they may be blamed when ill informed law makers make blanket bans or regulations from others misbehavior. As long as they dont add a throttle its still closer to mtb than any true emoto as emotos are coming 25kw(25,000w) and minimum is about 8kw now so a 1500w pedal assisted bike is nothing when compared. Bikes like Bonnel are where it gets into the confusing area as they have both pedals and a throttle and I have that same motor(older lower powered version with up 3500w vs 6000w) but it can actually be setup as class 1 automatically when you turn it on and throttle only activates in race mode which can only be switched in 1st 15seconds the bike is turned on. This is where personal responsibility is key with bikes like that but if that gets regulated it makes sense
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- #275
As the OP of this thread it's nice to see that the subject has generated so much mostly polite discussion even across quite contrasting opinions. But we have now ended up with ten pages of posts of which the vast majority merely repeat or challenge one of a few differing views that - as you point out - have already been circularly discussed too many times to mention. It's probably always the case that when a thread gets bigger than a few pages the new posters don't have the time to read what's gone before, so they always believe their comment is going to add something original. Perhaps now is the time to call a close to the thread?
I think I can fairly summarise the responses as follows:
There's the "I don't want or need that much power" versus "I think having 1500W on tap is cool (and don't use it if you don't want it)".
Then there's the "I worry that Avinox's new power standard may provoke the regulatory authorities to impose new e-bike class restrictions in a manner that we're not going to like" versus "I think you're all overly anxious and that's not going to happen".
And there's also the "it might possibly happen in regulation-happy Europe but outside of the EU we'll be all right".
Finally there's the "it's not power that matters but rather speed/irresponsibility etc" or "regardless of the power I just like the new innovations". Both are reasonable points of view, but the question here in this thread is whether the apparent trend to higher and higher power will lead to new restrictions on how we ride our e-bikes.
The discussion has been interesting, with lots of valid arguments. I'm tempted to create a poll to get a quantitive view on how people's opinions split out. Worth it?
rockymountaindude
Member
How many units did they sell.
- Thread starter
- #277
Coming soon to a cinema near you!? NewJersey low speed e-bike regs... www.nj.gov/mvc/vehicletopics/ebike.htm
(sorry, the link function isn't working at the moment)
For those of us who don't think our speed-restricted eMTBs will be lumped into the same boat as regulations for other classes of e-bikes, don't underestimate the ignorance/stupidity of legislators!
This is a point I've been banging on about for a while in this thread. Looking forward to the Daily Mail headline that starts: Granny fired into orbit by out of control Ebike menace but chill my guy, it was only a 60nm Fazua, 320 battery 15mph top whack, no need for nightmares.
mr.skywalker
Member
I guess my understanding of the DOT regulation was somewhat incorrect? Just sites a helmet required. Otherwise just like I said even our class 1 to use at all requires registration, classes, tests, license and insurance. Its ridiculous as they already have regulation that 20mph speed is the limit and standard bicycles can reach that speed. Thats the danger of regulation, too strict and makes no sense to anyone that understands physics lol But what is does is makes it super easy to determine if bike is legal for law enforcement
pass a test and get a licence too I read...
mr.skywalker
Member
yea imagine having to do all that to ride a bicycle, thats literally what class 1 is, its just easier to get to 20mph no matter how much power it has, its insane. They still havent outlined a power limit either so technically avinox follows that regulation
So all of the current motors are compliant with uk regulations, but all of them CAN be derestricted in about 2 seconds to not comply to the UK regulations, yet nobody has been stopped and had their bikes checked? But now we’re worried because…?
I still want to hear from someone who has been stopped on a pedal assist bike. I’m genuinely curious how that would go down.
I say relax and just make sure assisted bikes don’t get bunched up into a category of just e-bikes in general to include surrons and the like. If that conversation comes up then you uk guys need to go fight it and set the record straight of assist vs throttle. Don’t try to set wattage restrictions, just assist vs throttle. Until then, stop trying to ruin what the rest of us want lol.
I do think there’s a little over-reaction here. The bikes won’t get much more powerful in our sport. There already is the bonnell that looks like a dh bike and has 6000 watts and 280nm torque. This I can see being an issue… I think the trend of power will stabilize and veer more towards light weight with around this same power we’re at. It probably was negligible hit to motor weight to make the 1500 watts power so they just did it. It’s definitely working out for their sales, but a lot of us who already own Avinox know it’s not just about peak power and you guys would realize that too if you go put some time in on one.
I still want to hear from someone who has been stopped on a pedal assist bike. I’m genuinely curious how that would go down.
I say relax and just make sure assisted bikes don’t get bunched up into a category of just e-bikes in general to include surrons and the like. If that conversation comes up then you uk guys need to go fight it and set the record straight of assist vs throttle. Don’t try to set wattage restrictions, just assist vs throttle. Until then, stop trying to ruin what the rest of us want lol.
I do think there’s a little over-reaction here. The bikes won’t get much more powerful in our sport. There already is the bonnell that looks like a dh bike and has 6000 watts and 280nm torque. This I can see being an issue… I think the trend of power will stabilize and veer more towards light weight with around this same power we’re at. It probably was negligible hit to motor weight to make the 1500 watts power so they just did it. It’s definitely working out for their sales, but a lot of us who already own Avinox know it’s not just about peak power and you guys would realize that too if you go put some time in on one.
Vision_Tim
New Member
The more I listen and hear about the grumbling - the more it seems to be typical non-EMTB gatekeeping. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks that way.
slickrock
Well-known member
Yes, that is exactly what it is like. It's that timing disc on rear rotor that is really coming into play. Other motors that don't use this are at a big disadvantage because they can't control traction because they are not in control of what happens after the chainring, i.e. the rest of the drivetrain to impute traction, like say the Rivian/ALSO TM-B can.
Note: I deleted the post you replied to because I was unable to post the full text due to website issues or some problem with my browser last night. Here is the full post:
I've just extensively tested the M2S/M2 motors, including the 700Wh mode, and I've come to a different conclusion. It's not about the power amount as much as the power delivery in a very controlled way, and those motors delivered it gracefully and under control of the rider through pedal input under traction control. The key is pedal input, not a throttle. Hybrid motorbikes/mo-peds have throttles and most likely twist throttles - that's what makes them motor bikes. Remove the throttle on those heavy Surrons and you get a bike you can't control because they aren't really meant to pedalled. By forcing power delivery experience through the sole act of pedalling, you get something like what comes out of an M2S. I was expecting turbo and boost mode on technical uphills to buck the bike or spin out the wheels in lose traction, and it didn't. It pedalled up that technical hill faster without destroying the trail in the process, creating a new kind of riding experience that is quite distinct from anything akin to motocross.
The problem I see with this motor, however, is that it will create a kind of ebike caste if the other motor companies don't follow suit. A scrum of Avinox bikers will just leave others in the dust the same way SL bikes are left in the dust by traditional full power bikes. If this sounds like some power arms race will ensue, then that will probably be the case, but there really is a limit to how far it can escalate. Speed limiting, no-throttle, traction control, trail technicality, etc. all combine to constrain what reasonably of up limit power delivery on MTB trails. But as far as the power jump that has just occurred, for many the M2S will unlocked a distinct consumer surplus. For me personally, and despite my own expectations, the Overton Window for EMTB bike power has shifted upwards.
Just because they can, doesn't mean they do.
Avinox, and by extension, DJI, are not some rinky dink operation. They're a global company that are in the business of making money.
If they say its rated to 250W continuous power as per the regulations you can bet your arse that is what the bike does.
Besides, the motor generates it's own heat, also. Just because the battery can sustain it, doesn't mean the motor can under load.
It gets to a point where Occams Razor applies. Do you think DJI, the leading global player in drone technology, has developed a motor that flies in the face of EU and UK regulations and some people on an internet forum have figured it all out? Or do you think the bike actually just conforms to the regulations so they're able to sell it without breaking the law.
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You say you don't want to go round in circles about known facts, so can we put this to bed. Amflow clearly state on their website the M2S is rated at 250 watts. So the motor and/or BMS must derate eventually to give this rating, and cannot continuously provide over 1000 watts. Otherwise they would not comply with worldwide regulations that they are compliant with.
So can all the inuendo cease. Because this routine of grabbing video and magazine extracts to try and imply otherwise, is beginning to sound like those guys trying to prove the moon landings are fake, and the earth is flat.
- Thread starter
- #287
I was not expressing any opinions, I was just passing on the facts as stated by Avinox in the technical discussion on Rob's video.
You have expressed your opinion clearly. Would you like to add any facts to back it up?
I just did. The M2S is rated at 250 watts. So can you let this go ?
Amflow PX - Leicht und ohne Limits - Amflow (Deutschland)
Das Amflow PX vereint 150 N·m Spitzendrehmoment und 1500 W Spitzenleistung in der kompakten Avinox M2S Antriebseinheit. Unterstützt durch einen 700-Wh-Premium-Akku mit hoher Kapazität, liefert es eine neue Antwort auf die ultimative Balance zwischen Leistung, Reichweite und Gewicht.
www.amflowbikes.com
- Thread starter
- #289
That's true, and a fair point. I genuinely don't want to push any conspiracy thoughts here (we all know the moon landings are fake
) but I just haven't heard any technical explanations of how their 1500W capable motor is practically limited to be compliant with the EU's limit of "250W max continuous power output". But I'd be very happy to hear how it's done.
Fair enough. I am unaware of the testing\certification\documentation regime to prove the rating of a Class 1 rated Ebike. Nor do I have any interest in wasting my time doing the research.That's true, and a fair point. I genuinely don't want to push any conspiracy thoughts here (we all know the moon landings are fake
I trust the regulatory authorities are doing their due diligence. So unless I hear a regulatory authority has not passed the M2S motor as a Class 1 Ebike motor, I'm just going to get on and ride my EMTB, and not get caught up in all the illegal Ebike rhetoric being propagated through Social Media.
The M2S is rated at 250watts. It is limited to 25kph where it's a legal requirement. It is pedal assist and has no throttle. I am satisfied.
People illegally modifying Ebikes is a criminal issue. Not an Avinox issue. Illegally modifying the M2S motor, as with all Ebike motors, requires deliberate engineering actions by the owner, and instantly voids your warranty. And that's all we can ask of motor manufacturers.
You will never defeat the criminals entirely. And that's just a fact of life.
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slickrock
Well-known member
This ebike is a perfect example of why this has nothing to do with Avinox giving us a good thing or not. No derailleurs here, but also no gearbox. Despite its power it would be slow off the line and useless without dumping power from a throttle. I don't even think it there's even a motor freewheel. It's basically a masqueraded Surron. Only useful if derestricted and on pavement and fire roads without cadence/torque control. The laws should be designed to stop this kind of mayhem.
Yes that’s my point. The issue is this looks exactly like a DH bike. The surrons don’t have pedals so easy to distinguish.
They are super fast too. Look up Josh hill riding one. Btw no hate toward Josh, he’s a complete badass on anything he rides.
bmwpowere36m3
Member
That's true, and a fair point. I genuinely don't want to push any conspiracy thoughts here (we all know the moon landings are fake
EU law is written around a thermal requirement for electric motors (brushed at the time). As in, a 250W continuous rated electric motor shall not exceed a certain temperature. That temperature limit, I'm assuming, was based on typical 250W motors of that era.
The flaw in the law is using temperature to "limit" power. Well, years went by and technology improved. Now motors are brushless and use digital controllers. Both reduce the operating temperature of said motor. So today, a 750W brushless motor from Bosch meets the 250W thermal limit and hence is legal.
Avinox pushed the limits, I suspect through better temperature sensing and software to more aggressively derate motor output. They may be flying closer to the limit than say Bosch and others too. Also, they put the onus on the consumer to follow local laws... as in, "hey the power is here but you decide if its legal". Whereas Bosch is more strict and locks the motors/firmware down.
What a load of rubbish. My M2S Teewing Flux bike is currently undergoing NSW certification. If they deem it illegal. It's illegal. If they deem it legal. Then it's legal. And to be legal in NSW, it must meet Class 1 regulations. It has nothing to do with what I think or do.
And rather that just spreading hearsay. Here is the evidence below. It's super disappointing the stuff being posted here. No wonder there is such a strong Anti Ebike lobby.
And it's tiring and boring fact checking all the posts people are just inventing in this thread.
Teewing Flux One A Cosmic Black
Pushys is your online bike store - the best & the largest bike online store. Buy bikes online at Pushys - the most trusted online bikes store.
www.pushys.com.au
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cosas_genericas
Member
So it is a foot throttle emoto? The new avinox system has as much power as the lowest end lightweight Surron.
It has a torque sensor. The pressure you put into the pedals is measured and it is multiplied. In effect just making your legs stronger. Without continued energy input from your legs, creating rotation of the crank axle. The motor creates no output.
Throttles don't require you to create continuous rotation of an axle, to continue outputting power from the motor. So it's not a throttle. And it's referred to as Pedal Assist.
Unless of course you are trying to perform some sort of mental gymnastics and claim the torque sensor in the motor is a throttle ? In which case, I'm wasting more of my time again.
Surrons run higher battery voltages. This significantly reduces current. Power = Voltage X Current. That is why Surrons can run sustained higher powers, without melting everything, because at the same power, they are producing far less current.
Unlike the 36V avinox motor system, which would melt down at those sustained current and power levels. The heat produced is exponentially larger, as you increase current, due to the current squared law. That is why Avinox motor systems need to de-rate to prevent overheating and failure of the insulation, where the Surron would not.
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slickrock
Well-known member
Like a foot pedal of a car? Hardly. Pedalling is not throttling at all. Pedalling is the essence of bicycling. You need to apply both force and cadence (i.e. work), and there is a limited range of control without being forced to change gears. Performing work is the only input mechanism to get to all that power of the system of an Avinox. This is power amplification, not raw power production. You are directly connected to how much power is delivered (i.e. you feel like you are stronger ) and as such, you won't be using all that power flagrantly (like with any vehicle with throttle capability). This is why dangerous high-power emotos cannot work without a hand throttle that you can instantly and effortlessly twist from min to max. A pedal on a Surron is just camouflage. Take the throttle away, or any mechanism that could propel a bike without human work input, would be the simplest law to pass and enforce (with just visual inspection). Everything else would follow.
like bosch who provided 600W and little more each year. Now 750W. While being compliant with The EU's rules of 250W, like every other motors companies, who followed bosch. That hasn't disturb you at this time. Why it's an worries today ?That's true, and a fair point. I genuinely don't want to push any conspiracy thoughts here (we all know the moon landings are fake
You're making a big assumption that Bosch, Specialized, etc. don't use the sensors in the motor itself to acheieve the same thing. It's entirely possible to use the motor sensors to detect wheelslip.
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