Have Avinox given us a good thing (or not)?

[mr.skywalker]

Off topic but- I don’t agree that VW was breaking the rules. They actually designed their system to comply with the test/rules. IMO people didn’t like that VW violated the spirit of the rules; so they were made an example of.

Meh, idk it's definitely breaking rules if test condition and delivered vehicles operate differently. I don't think it's completely off topic as it does sort of align with the issue o rated vs peak power numbers, not directly of course but it shows companies are known to adjust to meet requirements (GM has done things of the nature too by not reporting true output numbers)

 

[Suns_PSD]

Off topic but- I don’t agree that VW was breaking the rules. They actually designed their system to comply with the test/rules. IMO people didn’t like that VW violated the spirit of the rules; so they were made an example of.

Yes, Robert Bosch GmbH, the supplier of the engine management software, warned Volkswagen as early as 2007 to not use its software for illegal emissions testing evasion. Despite providing the software components, Bosch formally told VW that using this functionality on public roads was against the law.

Green Car Reports +3

• Explicit Warnings: Reports suggest Bosch sent a letter to VW in 2007 warning that using the software—which they developed for testing purposes—in customer vehicles was an illegal "defeat device".
• Continued Use: VW ignored the warning and continued to develop the software for production vehicles.
• Earlier Warning in 2007: According to reports in Bild am Sonntag and BBC, Bosch told VW in 2007 that the software should only be used in company tests and not for normal driving,.
• Internal Knowledge: The software could monitor factors like steering wheel position, speed, and engine operation to detect testing.
  

 

[Suns_PSD]

Which proves a point, that Bosch has a history of trying to follow the law in regards to regulations.
Is it any wonder that the rumored upcoming power update is limited to 750w?

 

[Powerslider]

Yes, Robert Bosch GmbH, the supplier of the engine management software, warned Volkswagen as early as 2007 to not use its software for illegal emissions testing evasion. Despite providing the software components, Bosch formally told VW that using this functionality on public roads was against the law.
View attachment 182470Green Car Reports +3

• Explicit Warnings: Reports suggest Bosch sent a letter to VW in 2007 warning that using the software—which they developed for testing purposes—in customer vehicles was an illegal "defeat device".
• Continued Use: VW ignored the warning and continued to develop the software for production vehicles.
• Earlier Warning in 2007: According to reports in Bild am Sonntag and BBC, Bosch told VW in 2007 that the software should only be used in company tests and not for normal driving,.
• Internal Knowledge: The software could monitor factors like steering wheel position, speed, and engine operation to detect testing.

View attachment 182471

I don’t consider Green Car Reports as an unbiased source of truth, but I acknowledge the courts share your perspective. I just don’t agree with this tree falling in the woods analysis. To me compliance is passing the test. VW’s lawyers seemingly agreed with me and it cost them dearly.

 

[Crnz]

Pedal only, 25kg weight limit. No other rules needed.
Weight does as much damage to trails as power (if pedal assisted).
There would be virtually no super powerful bikes worth buying at a 25kg weight limit

 

[rockymountaindude]

No, Avinox has not given us a good thing for the most part.

There’s a point when a motor on a mountain bike turns it into a hybrid motorbike/mo-ped.

Because we can make a motor more powerful on an eMountain Bike doesn’t mean we should. Power output can exceed what a platform and rider is capable of handling.

This new Avinox motor with max 1500 w output is in some ways like putting a V8 in a Honda Fit. When using max output on the Avinox, I found the bike to get squirrely, the front tire loses grip… it’s not only not that useful in several situations, but dangerous.

What I propose we need is less power, but lighter and smaller powertrains. I see these higher power motors being niche.

 

[zaskarmark]

Just because you are licensed and insured for a car, does not mean you won't go over the speed limit or do other dangerous things. Same with an EMTB, there is an element of personal responsibility here. I see Suron clones on the trail all the time, let's start there because they are much easier to spot.

Excellent point & actually closer to reality. Personal responsibility IS the crux of this coming flood of new & powerful emtbs. You speed on the road, get caught & receive a costly penalty. The result is most people responsibly accept & follow the speed limit. We are always going to see hotdoggers shredding the trails to hell without a care or concern. If one cares about the environment AND their hobby/sport, they will take caution into their consideration when riding, especially when other riders or hikers are present.
The community in which I live has a very active environmental group the is the caretaker of over 9000 acres of community access lands. Many of these are hiking only trails, but others are long & well cared for snowmobile trails which are used by all, hikers to quad runners. For the most part, trail etiquette is followed & folks are kind to one another, no matter the mode of transportation.
On the point of more powerful motors, there are a few folks with them, (Surron type), that rip the trails to shreds. When we see them, we stop them & try to explain the point of NOT ripping the trails up. To my pleasant surprise, most are friendly & comply. (while in sight )
My e-bikes are a hub drive 750w 85nm fat tire I converted to a road only cruiser and a 500w 120nm mid drive set for trail use only. Both are set to class 3, as it is legal here. For me the added power from the mid drive is a NECESSITY, rather than simply a WANT for more power.
Three years ago, about this time of year, I was hit by a very drunk driver. She burst a disc above a prior back fusion, & nearly ripped through the nerve root to my right leg. Doctors said walking would be an issue for the rest of my life, and riding a bike would probably be nearly impossible. Six months of intensive PT and my own workout regimen had me back on a bike by fall of that same year.
My right leg is visibly smaller & 25% weaker, even though I work it like a rented mule. In my case there is a physical NEED for more torque & power.
I surely hope there is some recognition within the emtb community, manufacturers & constabulary of the requirements of those who are disabled who still have it in their hearts to spin the pedals for all they are worth.
I'm nearly 68 y/o & have been on bicycles for 63 of those years, racing on & off road in my younger days. I can't & wont stop pedaling... even if some drunk bitch thinks otherwise.

Ride on!

 

[winsail]

Just seems like a never ending race to the top. Not sure to the top of what. As Nigel says in Spinal Tap about his amp mine goes to 11. Why eleven, because it's 1 better than 10. I appreciate innovation but for my riding I want less. Less weight with batteries, motors and components with a decent amount of power. Avinox seems like the company who could do that or not. I'm still looking for an e-bike that weighs 28lbs with 80nm of power and a 500wh battery. Impossible, maybe today but I'm hoping for that in the future.

 

[Astro66]

I see these higher power motors being niche.

You might want to check the sales figures.

I spoke to Pushys Bike Store in Australia. They tried to do a deal with Yeti to import their bikes. It was a complete failure. They just couldn't get the sales volumes. They lost a lot of money.

Now they have done a deal with Teewing who is running the Avinox Motor System, and these bikes are flying off the shelves. Their first container sold out in 3 months. They now imported a much bigger container, including the new Enduro. The frames, which they had more than ten, are sold out. Sizes in the full bike are also sold out. They sold 5 frames just last week.

People want the higher power motors. But it's not the people coming from MTBs. These bikes are bringing in a whole new revenue stream from those who want the excitement when going up or downhill. Many people from trials riding and Moto-cross.

This growth is good for the sport. National Parks here in Australia are opening more trails to mountain bikes due to demand. As long as these bikes are Class 1, which in Australia they are. This is what the National Parks want using these fabulous resources.

Now I understand the MTB purists don't get it. And that's fine. Buy your mid-powered EMTB with no connectivity. But others want the power, and they want the cutting edge technology.

 

[rockymountaindude]

You might want to check the sales figures.

I spoke to Pushys Bike Store in Australia. They tried to do a deal with Yeti to import their bikes. It was a complete failure. They just couldn't get the sales volumes. They lost a lot of money.

Now they have done a deal with Teewing who is running the Avinox Motor System, and these bikes are flying off the shelves. Their first container sold out in 3 months. They now imported a much bigger container, including the new Enduro. The frames, which they had more than ten, are sold out. Sizes in the full bike are also sold out. They sold 5 frames just last week.

People want the higher power motors. But it's not the people coming from MTBs. These bikes are bringing in a whole new revenue stream from those who want the excitement when going up or downhill. Many people from trials riding and Moto-cross.

This growth is good for the sport. National Parks here in Australia are opening more trails to mountain bikes due to demand. As long as these bikes are Class 1, which in Australia they are. This is what the National Parks want using these fabulous resources.

Now I understand the MTB purists don't get it. And that's fine. Buy your mid-powered EMTB with no connectivity. But others want the power, and they want the cutting edge technology.

Lots of assumptions you're making. Right now it's hype, and a trend. Time will tell whether any of it is sustainable. My prediction is that it's hype will die out, and sales go down.

 

[Astro66]

Lots of assumptions you're making. Right now it's hype, and a trend. Time will tell whether any of it is sustainable. My prediction is that it's hype will die out, and sales go down.

You are entitled to your opinion. But to me it looks like the EMTB manufacturers and retailers are following the flow of money. And that is towards more peak power , technology and connectivity built into the EMTBs.

I have a heart issue. Have you any concept how good it's going to be, being able to link my heartrate to the bike power ? Literally my Cardiologist is saying that with this technology, I'll be able to continue riding longer, without risk of dying.

 

[rockymountaindude]

You are entitled to your opinion. But to me it looks like the EMTB manufacturers and retailers are following the flow of money. And that is towards more peak power , technology and connectivity built into the EMTBs.

I have a heart issue. Have you any concept how good it's going to be, being able to link my heartrate to the bike power ? Literally my Cardiologist is saying that with this technology, I'll be able to continue riding longer, without risk of dying.

Post the stats to support your claims.

Brands are jumping on anything to sell. Large layoffs continue in the industry.

 

[Astro66]

Post the stats to support your claims.

Well let's look just at Amflow sales. Reports indicate exceptionally strong demand, with some dealers reporting that Amflow/DJI bikes have accounted for 60% of their e-bike sales in the past year.

Strong sales have reportedly helped some dealers survive the post-Covid bicycle industry slump. This has been backed up by EMBN video interviews with local bike stores.

Avinox is taking over – here are 20 bikes you can buy with its incredible new M2 and M2S motors | BikeRadar

We've rounded up the pick of the eMTBs with DJI's latest Avinox motors

www.bikeradar.com

 

[rockymountaindude]

Well let's look just at Amflow sales. Reports indicate exceptionally strong demand, with some dealers reporting that Amflow/DJI bikes have accounted for 60% of their e-bike sales in the past year.

Strong sales have reportedly helped some dealers survive the post-Covid bicycle industry slump. This has been backed up by EMBN video interviews with local bike stores.

Avinox is taking over – here are 20 bikes you can buy with its incredible new M2 and M2S motors | BikeRadar

We've rounded up the pick of the eMTBs with DJI's latest Avinox motors

www.bikeradar.com

What part of the world? Is this the entire planet? A few countries?

In my part of the world (considered some of the best mountain biking territory in the world), Avinox bikes are not big sellers. Some well known shops still have old stock Avinox bikes from 8 months ago sitting around.

And "some dealers" meaning? 2? 20?

And the dealers selling these Avinox bikes... how many other eBike brands do they carry?

Not much to take away from your post.

 

[Brawwp]

What part of the world? Is this the entire planet? A few countries?

In my part of the world (considered some of the best mountain biking territory in the world), Avinox bikes are not big sellers. Some well known shops still have old stock Avinox bikes from 8 months ago sitting around.

And "some dealers" meaning? 2? 20?

And the dealers selling these Avinox bikes... how many other eBike brands do they carry?

Not much to take away from your post.

Buddy if you think Avinox isn’t selling like freaking hot cakes you’re out of your mind.

Instead of being a grouch just let people enjoy what they like. My Avinox bike has put more smiles on my face than any other bike I’ve ridden. Is that ok or do I need to succumb to what you prefer?

 

[rockymountaindude]

Buddy if you think Avinox isn’t selling like freaking hot cakes you’re out of your mind.

Instead of being a grouch just let people enjoy what they like. My Avinox bike has put more smiles on my face than any other bike I’ve ridden. Is that ok or do I need to succumb to what you prefer?

It isn't selling where I am. Global stats not available just people's hype beliefs.

 

[Astro66]

It isn't selling where I am. Global stats not available just people's hype beliefs.

If you think the technology Avinox is offering is a fad and just hype. Good Luck to you. I suggest a name change ...... NokiaMountainDude ......

 

[DylanJM]

I have a heart issue. Have you any concept how good it's going to be, being able to link my heartrate to the bike power ? Literally my Cardiologist is saying that with this technology, I'll be able to continue riding longer, without risk of dying.

Specialized had this function on the Levo years ago, Avinox are not the first. Just saying.

 

[Brawwp]

It isn't selling where I am. Global stats not available just people's hype beliefs.

You’ve clearly been on the internet, I just don’t understand how you don’t believe it’s selling well lmfao. Your lady had to have put an Avinox block on your phone so you wouldn’t see what is going on out there.

Go on crestline, amflow, pivot, unno, etc website right now and try to buy one. All sold out.

 

[Astro66]

Specialized had this function on the Levo years ago, Avinox are not the first. Just saying.

I'm not saying Avinox is first. I'm saying adding more Tech, Interfacing, Connectivity and Power is better. The theme of this thread seems to be, "Do we want all the tech and power ?" It is my opinion that most modern riders do. And it will only grow the sport.

If you don't want it. Great. Buy less. But peeps pushing this notion that less choice is better, seems absurd.

 

[nickf]

The theme of this thread seems to be, "Do we want all the tech and power ?" It is my opinion that most modern riders do. And it will only grow the sport.

If you don't want it. Great. Buy less. But peeps pushing this notion that less choice is better, seems absurd.

As the OP of this thread I can tell you that the theme was intended to be an open discussion of do we need 1500W of power and are we worried that this new power standard will lead to new restrictions and regulations on our bikes. The responses have unsurprisingly demonstrated a range of opinions on both aspects, with some more fearful of regulatory risks and others just happy to see the amazing advancements.

There's a lot of clever and useful innovation in the new Avinox motors that has nothing to do with the power increase and surely that can only be a good thing. And if you don't want it, just don't use it. I especially applaud the fact that Avinox listened to the users and put the development effort in to make the motor quieter and rattle-free. Not a very sexy upgrade, but it's what we wanted.

But I still question why they chose to push the power levels so far, as nobody was exactly crying out that 1000W was not enough and it is the one new feature of the motors that risks a regulatory kickback.

 

[Polar]

and with traction control.

I got TC on my car and it works fantastic especially on snow up steep hills.
How is the TC working on Amflow, is it in the same way as a car?

 

[Brawwp]

But I still question why they chose to push the power levels so far, as nobody was exactly crying out that 1000W was not enough and it is the one new feature of the motors that risks a regulatory kickback.

My question would be does adding the power add weight to the motor? If it doesn’t, then why not add it??? Yes I know the motor weight increased a little bit, but was that weight increase from whatever they did for more power, or from whatever changes were made to make it rattle free and maybe more bulletproof?

We see other companies releasing updates for more and more power. If it’s not making it heavier, then why would you not want it? For Avinox it’s generating huge amounts of hype and sales. For me I am stoked for more power and still a “light” full power bike.

 

[ObiWanBenobi]

As the OP of this thread I can tell you that the theme was intended to be an open discussion of do we need 1500W of power and are we worried that this new power standard will lead to new restrictions and regulations on our bikes. The responses have unsurprisingly demonstrated a range of opinions on both aspects, with some more fearful of regulatory risks and others just happy to see the amazing advancements.

There's a lot of clever and useful innovation in the new Avinox motors that has nothing to do with the power increase and surely that can only be a good thing. And if you don't want it, just don't use it.

I especially applaud the fact that Avinox listened to the users and put the development effort in to make the motor quieter and rattle-free. Not a very sexy upgrade, but it's what we wanted. But I still question why they chose to push the power levels so far, as nobody was exactly crying out that 1000W was not enough and it is the one new feature of the motors that risks a regulatory kickback.

Can you let me know what 'Regulatory Kickback' you are referring to? I don't see any in the UK. One person mentioned somewhere in the States (New Jersey possibly) but when I read the article it was apparent this was scaremongering and there was a huge pushback from the local bike community.

I think the regulatory kickback is in your head. I can't see any new regulations in Europe. Some new rules were discussed in the UK last year but nothing was done about it and it wasn't capping output it was increasing minimum allowed continuous power limit to 500 watts so potentially even more powerful bikes and wouldn't affect max power.

This whole thread is based on nonsense. The bikes are still capped to 15.5mph. They have to use pedal assist.

I think if anything newer rules will allow greater speed and power in the future not less. The current rules are out of date and generally uninforced and ignored, except from the manufacturers, who then also put in loop holes that can be exploited (except Bosch) to allow people to use the bikes on Private Land in any way they want.

A kick forward possibly but not a kick back.

 

[RustyMTB]

I don't see any in the UK.

Yeah you do. Not a day goes by now without a story in the news about the cops cracking down on iffy electric bikes somewhere, the regulations in action. Doesn't matter what they are, bikes powered by elektrickery are well on the radar, the fourth estate & by extension the great British public don't make a distinction between the various flavours.

 

[nickf]

My question would be does adding the power add weight to the motor? If it doesn’t, then why not add it???

That's one perspective, and a fair question within that context.

But my question has always been would adding the power risk provoking the regulatory authorities to impose harsher restrictions on the use of our bikes.

It's easy to answer your question - just weigh the new motor system! - but unfortunately not so simple to answer mine as all we can do is wait and see if and how the regulators react.

As others have opined here, it may turn out that there is no regulatory kickback in the future and all those who have held this opinion will be able to point their finger at all us silly anxious folk and laugh at us all worrying about nothing. As one of those silly anxious folk I would be very happy with this outcome and laugh at myself along with you. In the meantime I remain concerned.

 

[nickf]

Can you let me know what 'Regulatory Kickback' you are referring to?

I think the regulatory kickback is in your head. I can't see any new regulations in Europe.

This whole thread is based on nonsense. The bikes are still capped to 15.5mph. They have to use pedal assist.

The regulatory kickback I am referring to is something that may happen in the future when the regulatory authorities have reflected on how they perceive the impact of the current ebike "power wars" on the safety of riders and other road users. The reason you haven't seen them yet is that regulatory bodies - especially in the EU - take longer to react than the Avinox development cycle times. We don't know yet if or how the authorities may react, but if and when they do it's no use quoting the current restrictions because they will then be superseded - and most probably not in a way that we will like!

 

[ObiWanBenobi]

Yeah you do. Not a day goes by now without a story in the news about the cops cracking down on iffy electric bikes somewhere, the regulations in action. Doesn't matter what they are, bikes powered by elektrickery are well on the radar, the fourth estate & by extension the great British public don't make a distinction between the various flavours.

Thats not regulatory kickback - thats Enforcement because kids are riding 80mph scooters and delivery guys are riding hub motor powered ebikes that go 50mph.

Also - the enforcement is so adhoc that yeah it makes a great Daily Mail article when they raid 30 Uber Eats riders at a McDonalds - but it doesn't actually make any diffrence to the rest of the general public who go about their days ignoring the current rules.

 

[ObiWanBenobi]

The regulatory kickback I am referring to is something that may happen in the future when the regulatory authorities have reflected on how they perceive the impact of the current ebike "power wars" on the safety of riders and other road users. The reason you haven't seen them yet is that regulatory bodies - especially in the EU - take longer to react than the Avinox development cycle times. We don't know yet if or how the authorities may react, but if and when they do it's no use quoting the current restrictions because they will then be superseded - and most probably not in a way that we will like!

So yeah - it hasn't happened. Isn't happening. Hasn't been mentioned. But you are worried about it....

I'd start worrying about something else more important and enjoy your ebike (if you have one).

 

[Astro66]

But I still question why they chose to push the power levels so far, as nobody was exactly crying out that 1000W was not enough and it is the one new feature of the motors that risks a regulatory kickback.

I've gone round in circles about the regulatory kick back. All I can say is no one in Australia is looking to restrict any bike limited to 25kph. My Nanna at 80yo could pedal a bike to 25kph. And my Avinox is currently going through local certification to ensure compliance. From my dealer :

'NSW Certification for the Flux One has been lodged and is pending approval. We expect to have certification completed in time for May delivery.'

So when the Govt approve it. All the nonsense around peak power will cause regulatory issues is exactly that. Nonsense. if other govts see a 25kph limit differently. Then perhaps other biases are in play.

Regarding power level. I just want an Enduro that weighs around 22-23kgs with the most peak power they can extract, and about 700-800wHrs battery. I can manage that weight. And it's not far off what some of the World Cup downhill guys are running. So it should suit downhill as well.

What the final numbers come back at, is unimportant. But having access to more power is always a better option to have up your sleeve.