Have Avinox given us a good thing (or not)?

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It is also kind of funny how things always come back. Who can remember when suspension started coming out? As a suspension guy I do vividly. Many complaints of how riders could go so fast and get our sport shut down from injuries or hiker complaints. Then disc brakes! Holy freaking Moly- purists were slashing their wrists. Lift assisted rider? Some would call you a cheater, not a real rider etc. Who the FUCK cares? It is TOYS that kids ride that we spend lots of cash on. Just that fact makes all of us idiots to most the world LOL.
 
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Brawwp said:
Avinox isn’t your enemy. They’re just doing a much better job at giving the market what they want. The trend of more power has been going on since emtb started.

Didnt orbea launch an extremely light weight small motor bike recently? Crickets since its launch. Idc if u pedal your bike off two Duracell AA batteries, good for you. Is it ok if others enjoy the power?
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any company that evades UK legislation and increases the risk of me having to ride with a licence and a fricking motor cycle helmet is my enemy.
I don't know about Orbea making motor bikes - they released a low power emtb recently I think.
If you don't care about whether the people 'complaining' ride derestricted bikes why even mention it?
you can go play on a hundred HP unicycle as long as it doesn't affect me in Europe.
 
We had powerful motors before Avinox:
  • Sachs – 112 Nm
  • Rocky Mountain Dyname – 109 Nm
  • Bafang M620 – 170 Nm
Progress is always welcome in any field. However, I personally feel that focusing solely on maximum power does not help in fully understanding the overall situation.

Avinox has brought a completely different perspective on what assistance from an eBike motor can be.

Below, we can identify three major assistance curves:
  1. Avinox
  2. Shimano/Specialized
  3. Bosch
It is easy to see that for the motor to deliver 400 W, the rider only needs to supply approximately:
  1. Avinox – 50 W
  2. Shimano/Specialized – ~75 W
  3. Bosch – ~120 W
For a motor output of 600 W, the required rider input is roughly:
  1. Avinox – 75 W
  2. Shimano/Specialized – ~120 W
  3. Bosch – ~200 W

From this, we can quickly conclude that Avinox is characterized by low rider power input and high motor power output, while Bosch represents the opposite approach, with Shimano/Specialized positioned in the middle ground.
Unfortunately, we cannot directly compare SL motors on ebike-lab.de, but it is reasonable to deduce that they fall below the Bosch CX4/CX5 in terms of assistance. This implies higher rider power input and lower motor power output.
It is here that I believe we are witnessing the emergence of a new class of eBike motors, characterized by low rider input and high motor output—an “Avinox Class.”

Personally, I am not particularly drawn to this low-input/high-output approach. I have tuned down the Tour mode on my Bosch CX4 to 450 W and 60 Nm, with ECO set to even lower values. While I can still use Turbo or eMTB+ modes for very steep or technical climbs, what I truly seek is the bike experience—without the suffering, but also without excessive motor assistance.

I do believe that Avinox systems can be configured for lower power output. However, whenever I read reviews, the emphasis is almost always on maximum power. For that kind of experience, I would rather use my 300cc two-stroke enduro/hard-enduro motorcycle.




Mario Antony

Thread 'The Avinox Effect – How a Manufacturer Disrupted an Entire Market'

The Avinox Effect – How a Manufacturer Disrupted an Entire Market​

Anyone interested in eMTBs has likely heard about the Avinox motor. When DJI released the Avinox M1 in 2024, it immediately disrupted established players such as Bosch, Specialized, Shimano, and Giant. The surge in power triggered a “power race,” with Bosch increasing the torque of its latest Performance Line CX (“Gen5”) from 85Nm to 105Nm, while Specialized enhanced the output of its non-S-Works models. Shimano has maintained its EP801 at 85Nm, and Giant, despite...
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eMTB-forum.webp
 
John_likes_bikes said:
Should I start the MS3 rumors thread or do you want to? :)

Biggest hurdles for an MGU is going to be added weight and unless they can fix the drag issue that's been around for decades the MGU is going to eat battery to overcome that. As lame as derailleurs are they're very light in comparison. Even if they can shave a lot of motor/battery weight, add an MGU you're right probably right back at 50-55 lbs. And if they can shave that kind of weight off battery/motor give me a derailleur and a much lighter bike.

MGU's will likely also require big changes to manufactures current frame and possibly suspension designs. Overall not a bad thing but there's a lot of cost and time associated with that, unlike dropping an Avionix in place of a Bosch like so many did for last weeks tidal wave of new releases.
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Some counterpoints are in order:
  1. You are making assumptions about Pinion gearbox and MGU designs that are out there: Weight, efficiency, size,noise, etc are not givens for motor transmissions; just Pinion with their current version.
  2. There are more efficient designs possible, especially those that have stepless transmission (e.g. hybrid, E-CVT, pedal-by-wire) - more efficiency loss happens when your cadence does not match the optimum efficiency curve of the motor than inherent loss in the mechanical transmission. Every time you have to change gears is the point where the system is not efficient.
  3. Derailleurs will snap off when you start pushing 1500w/150NM motors. Internal transmissions are much more robust when dealing with this kind of power delivery.
  4. Current frame and suspension designs will actually be more liberated with MGU - chainlines, hangers, chain dampers and kickback devices issues all go away. All the heavy lifting was already done with using electric motors in the first place. Chain/belt tensioners are still required, but only if axle path is not concentric.
  5. As mentioned before, the MGU space is not filled with large entrenched brands so Avinox would have little friction jumping in. Bosch, SRAM, Shimano are nowhere to be found. Pinion is the only current entry and vulnerable at that - they are not big enough and don't have to system integration weight to compete. Avinox could just steamroll them with a solid entry.
 
slickrock said:
Some counterpoints are in order:
  1. You are making assumptions about Pinion gearbox and MGU designs that are out there: Weight, efficiency, size,noise, etc are not givens for motor transmissions; just Pinion with their current version.
  2. There are more efficient designs possible, especially those that have stepless transmission (e.g. hybrid, E-CVT, pedal-by-wire) - more efficiency loss happens when your cadence does not match the optimum efficiency curve of the motor than inherent loss in the mechanical transmission. Every time you have to change gears is the point where the system is not efficient.
  3. Derailleurs will snap off when you start pushing 1500w/150NM motors. Internal transmissions are much more robust when dealing with this kind of power delivery.
  4. Current frame and suspension designs will actually be more liberated with MGU - chainlines, hangers, chain dampers and kickback devices issues all go away. All the heavy lifting was already done with using electric motors in the first place. Chain/belt tensioners are still required, but only if axle path is not concentric.
  5. As mentioned before, the MGU space is not filled with large entrenched brands so Avinox would have little friction jumping in. Bosch, SRAM, Shimano are nowhere to be found. Pinion is the only current entry and vulnerable at that - they are not big enough and don't have to system integration weight to compete. Avinox could just steamroll them with a solid entry.
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I envision a gearbox motor being a different product segment that would necessarily live beside a conventional motor; at least for a few years. It might even need to follow the Avinox model where DJI employs an Amflow gearbox bike as a proof of concept before the industry builds enough courage to jump onboard.
 
Interesting view and hopefully this will be sorted in a way everyone can live with.

 
I wonder if anyone in the authorities that govern trails would even notice if youtubers didn't chase the clicks with doom and gloom laden videos and thumbnail images?

Also, risking regret by entering the "is Europe a region" debate, I'd say that by the dictionary definition of course it is but having spent last week in Greece and witnessed 50% helmet wearing on motorbikes and of that 50%, half didn't have the straps done up! Two hire places happily hired by 12 year old an eeb and we spent a few days riding with no issues. I wouldn't treat Europe as a place of uniform regulation/enforcement. 😃
 
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ozzybmx said:
I dont mind Francis, one of the better reviewers/creators that you can actually watch the whole way through and has decent content.
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Francis is a interesting and funny guy but I also like to watch the most hated Avinox reviewer Alex 😆 because it's interesting to see what their conclusion is on different brands, if everyone agree it's a boring world with nothing to learn and fight about.
To agree not to agree is the best resultat in a discussion.
Also noticed Francis got a new sponsor, Leatt same as Alex
 
I don't think I have an issue with the torque and power numbers on the new Avinox as such (or the others that are there or going to follow), but I do think some of the multipliers we're now seeing are virtual throttles really.

50w>400w or 100w>800w is completely unnecessary, in my opinion. It's stupidly easy to for a rider to put out 100w. I can't believe there's a rider on here who couldn't comfortably hold 150w for an hour or so. Do we really need assist over 300%?

My interval efforts for 15 seconds are around 900 watts, getting to 1,200 watts is pretty much max effort for me, and I'm holding that for only a few seconds. Getting to that sort of power on an ebike with an input of 150w at the cranks is technically impressive, but arguably not 'assistance'.

Would limiting the assist not effectively keep the legislation from the door?

Edit: I'd be really, really happy with a motor that gave me a multiplier of 200% for all of my riding, regardless of my input and cadence. If I go Avinox, that how I'll set it up, and I think it would be perfect.
 
Weeksy said:
I still don't understand how companies are getting round the 250w nominal power with things like Avinox motors... It makes no sense at all to me.
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I think the problem is that because for years we've all read "250w nominal" - somewhere in everyone's minds that means that all the bikes only have 250w power.

That isn't the case, it's just everyone miss interpreting what that means.

Effectively, the decision was made that 250w nominal was a good baseline number to use for power. All this means is that a motor has to be able to output 250w CONTINUOUSLY- Indefinitely - without overheating.

Pretty much every e-bike motor has had peak power considerably higher than that - the difference is that the peak power can normally only be maintained for a far shorter period - say 20 or 30 minutes as an example before it overheats and restricts it melts.

Even if you take something like a Levo SL motor with it's 35nm. It's actual peak power is nearer 320w.

You don't see everyone building mini trebuchets to throw their toys out of the pram because OH MY GOD, it's got 50% more power than is shown as it's nominal power output.

As we've said previously in the thread, there have been plenty of bikes with high torque and high power outputs over the years, the only difference is that Avinox publish the peak power numbers.

I know lots of people say "I don't need that much power" but 99.9% of people aren't using 100% of the peak power any of their bikes have. Everyone also rides different terrain. Pretty much anyone who rides uphill on steeper terrain will at some point have found themselves in a situation where they'd wished they'd had a little more power.

Obviously there are concerns that Electric Mountain Bikes could turn into Electric Moto's - but for it to be a mountain bike, it still has to be below a certain weight just to be able to ride it like a mountain bike. Once you're into the electric moto zone, you have far far larger and heavier motors which would result in a hideous riding experience. You also have to pedal to engage the power rather than use a throttle, which creates an entirely different riding dynamic.

Yes, there will always be moron's who will ride too fast when it's inappropriate, but that's always been the case. There will always be moron's in any sport or setting who don't think about anyone else - what peak power an electric bicycle can output doesn't and won't stop people being Morons - don't forget, you even get Morons on unassisted bicycles, yes, moron's even exist entirely without any bike at all. Or the ones on Quads who for some reason think empty Monster Energy can's exist purely to randomly decorate the countryside.
 
Zimmerframe said:
I think the problem is that because for years we've all read "250w nominal" - somewhere in everyone's minds that means that all the bikes only have 250w power.

That isn't the case, it's just everyone miss interpreting what that means.

Effectively, the decision was made that 250w nominal was a good baseline number to use for power. All this means is that a motor has to be able to output 250w CONTINUOUSLY- Indefinitely - without overheating.

Pretty much every e-bike motor has had peak power considerably higher than that - the difference is that the peak power can normally only be maintained for a far shorter period - say 20 or 30 minutes as an example before it overheats and restricts it melts.

Even if you take something like a Levo SL motor with it's 35nm. It's actual peak power is nearer 320w.

You don't see everyone building mini trebuchets to throw their toys out of the pram because OH MY GOD, it's got 50% more power than is shown as it's nominal power output.

As we've said previously in the thread, there have been plenty of bikes with high torque and high power outputs over the years, the only difference is that Avinox publish the peak power numbers.

I know lots of people say "I don't need that much power" but 99.9% of people aren't using 100% of the peak power any of their bikes have. Everyone also rides different terrain. Pretty much anyone who rides uphill on steeper terrain will at some point have found themselves in a situation where they'd wished they'd had a little more power.

Obviously there are concerns that Electric Mountain Bikes could turn into Electric Moto's - but for it to be a mountain bike, it still has to be below a certain weight just to be able to ride it like a mountain bike. Once you're into the electric moto zone, you have far far larger and heavier motors which would result in a hideous riding experience. You also have to pedal to engage the power rather than use a throttle, which creates an entirely different riding dynamic.

Yes, there will always be moron's who will ride too fast when it's inappropriate, but that's always been the case. There will always be moron's in any sport or setting who don't think about anyone else - what peak power an electric bicycle can output doesn't and won't stop people being Morons - don't forget, you even get Morons on unassisted bicycles, yes, moron's even exist entirely without any bike at all. Or the ones on Quads who for some reason think empty Monster Energy can's exist purely to randomly decorate the countryside.
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but surely that means a MAX of 250w continuous power ? I can't believe the Avinox can't do more than that.
 
Is the problem the people going up on single trails at 11km/h instead of 8km/h or the ones coming down at 30km/h?
Does cause more damage to the trail an Avinox bike going up at 12km/h or a muscular bike bombing down at 30 km/h.

People on foot don't get annoyed by people going up but by people bombing down.
 
The issue with the Avinox system (uk pov) is not so much the unnecessary power and torque it’s the grey area of the VPN hack. It’s no longer a feature of just Amflow and a few other brands, it’s gone mainstream overnight. It dosent matter if 99% use it responsibly it’s the 1% who could mess it up for every mountain biker. It’s not hard to understand in my opinion.
 
action99 said:
Is the problem the people going up on single trails at 11km/h instead of 8km/h or the ones coming down at 30km/h?
Does cause more damage to the trail an Avinox bike going up at 12km/h or a muscular bike bombing down at 30 km/h.

People on foot don't get annoyed by people going up but by people bombing down.
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No. The legislation has nothing to do with people on trails. It's the abuse and danger from towns, cities etc that they write this for.
 
Ratcliff1893 said:
The issue with the Avinox system (uk pov) is not so much the unnecessary power and torque it’s the grey area of the VPN hack. It’s no longer a feature of just Amflow and a few other brands, it’s gone mainstream overnight. It dosent matter if 99% use it responsibly it’s the 1% who could mess it up for every mountain biker. It’s not hard to understand in my opinion.
Click to expand...
So this thread seems once again to have just turned into the same discussion we've had 1000's of times.

As for the VPN hack - there have always been "hacks"/Workarounds.

In the early specialized days, there was the bluetooth hack. Then we had physical speed sensor "hacks" which spin at half the wheel speed. Boxes which connect between motors and speed sensors to give false rotation speed information. There was the Shimano location hack where you could set it to US 32kph instead of 25kph. The early avinox hack where you ran a speed sensor wheel with half the holes covered over.
 
action99 said:
Is the problem the people going up on single trails at 11km/h instead of 8km/h or the ones coming down at 30km/h?
Does cause more damage to the trail an Avinox bike going up at 12km/h or a muscular bike bombing down at 30 km
Click to expand...

Ratcliff1893 said:
The issue with the Avinox system (uk pov) is not so much the unnecessary power and torque it’s the grey area of the VPN hack. It’s no longer a feature of just Amflow and a few other brands, it’s gone mainstream overnight. It dosent matter if 99% use it responsibly it’s the 1% who could mess it up for every mountain biker. It’s not hard to understand in my opinion.
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There's a tommychype video of him climbing Snowdon on the M2S. I think most walkers on the hill will look at him as riding inconsiderately, and if we have a lot more of these doing it it because they can, then I think we could start to see action taken on access - although I don't know how it would ever really be enforced in reality, at least in the UK..


His riding content is generally the sort of stuff I ride, so I enjoy his content and I don't think he's a bad bloke by any stretch - but I'm a different generation so I don't always find him particularly relatable... This isn't a post about the bloke's personality though, mores the optics of the speed of the bike up a shared trail.
 
Zimmerframe said:
So this thread seems once again to have just turned into the same discussion we've had 1000's of times.

As for the VPN hack - there have always been "hacks"/Workarounds.

In the early specialized days, there was the bluetooth hack. Then we had physical speed sensor "hacks" which spin at half the wheel speed. Boxes which connect between motors and speed sensors to give false rotation speed information. There was the Shimano location hack where you could set it to US 32kph instead of 25kph. The early avinox hack where you ran a speed sensor wheel with half the holes covered over.
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But as usual this thread has gone off on a spiral because it started off about motor power nothing more nothing less , now its also about assist cut off speed because people dont read the OPs original post (y)
 
Zimmerframe said:
So this thread seems once again to have just turned into the same discussion we've had 1000's of times.

As for the VPN hack - there have always been "hacks"/Workarounds.

In the early specialized days, there was the bluetooth hack. Then we had physical speed sensor "hacks" which spin at half the wheel speed. Boxes which connect between motors and speed sensors to give false rotation speed information. There was the Shimano location hack where you could set it to US 32kph instead of 25kph. The early avinox hack where you ran a speed sensor wheel with half the holes covered over.
Click to expand...

Whilst you’re not wrong, check out the Avinox Facebook groups, lots of people saying “yay, ordered my first EMTB, a [insert Avinox bike], read I just need a VPN to unlock yeah? Woohoo!!”

It’s weird because DJi have gone to great lengths to make sure that their drones are compliant with regulations wherever they’re sold, including geo-locking etc height limiting, transmission power limits etc, and whilst jail breaking one isn’t impossible it’s not as straightforward as a VPN.

I guess they just don’t see the same issue with e-bikes, or just don’t care.

Actually, as a result of drone mis-use, now all model flying (a simple hobby for many) is severely restricted and licensed versus what it was before people started abusing airspace with drones both legal and illegal.

Sounds familiar actually…
 
Zimmerframe said:
As for the VPN hack - there have always been "hacks"/Workarounds.
Click to expand...
Yeah that. Punting the idea that Amflow has created an epidemic of deristricted bike overnight is for the birds, it's gone on forever & very little new is ever said about it. Although any law that is so widely disrespected is probably a bad law. It.

The reality is the law won't change here in user's favour. History tells us the direction of travel is always towards greater regulation, not less & usually fuelled by moral panic got up by take your pick; the press, UKIPPY tossers, Nimbys, politicians on the make, whoever.
 
action99 said:
Is the problem the people going up on single trails at 11km/h instead of 8km/h or the ones coming down at 30km/h?
Does cause more damage to the trail an Avinox bike going up at 12km/h or a muscular bike bombing down at 30 km/h.

People on foot don't get annoyed by people going up but by people bombing down.
Click to expand...
I'm not agree. I don't think that walker who climb on trail, appreciate when onebody the double at 25 km/h (possible with 1500 W) or lot of more for those who use VPN. 1 moron in midle of several "good guys", willn't implicate consquencies. Several, allowed by the AVINOX reachable offer. Will been automatically generate reaction and bad consequencies for all local ebiker, at less.
 
RustyMTB said:
Yeah that. Punting the idea that Amflow has created an epidemic of deristricted bike overnight is for the birds, it's gone on forever & very little new is ever said about it. Although any law that is so widely disrespected is probably a bad law. It.

The reality is the law won't change here in user's favour. History tells us the direction of travel is always towards greater regulation, not less & usually fuelled by moral panic got up by take your pick; the press, UKIPPY tossers, Nimbys, politicians on the make, whoever.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree, and that’s why we should be on high alert for whatever is coming.

Even good old ‘Merica has enforced some of the most draconian drone flying restrictions of anywhere, Remote ID for instance. Even NZ, who sensibly have a high 45kph assist limit for e-bikes, has massively overly regulated the RC flying hobby, far in excess of the actual risk.

I know that de-restriction has always gone on, but I don’t think it’s ever been easier than with an Avinox and arguably there’s the power now to sustain those de-restricted speeds.

I guess we’ll all see.
 
IATR said:
I don't think I have an issue with the torque and power numbers on the new Avinox as such (or the others that are there or going to follow), but I do think some of the multipliers we're now seeing are virtual throttles really.

50w>400w or 100w>800w is completely unnecessary, in my opinion. It's stupidly easy to for a rider to put out 100w. I can't believe there's a rider on here who couldn't comfortably hold 150w for an hour or so. Do we really need assist over 300%?

My interval efforts for 15 seconds are around 900 watts, getting to 1,200 watts is pretty much max effort for me, and I'm holding that for only a few seconds. Getting to that sort of power on an ebike with an input of 150w at the cranks is technically impressive, but arguably not 'assistance'.

Would limiting the assist not effectively keep the legislation from the door?

Edit: I'd be really, really happy with a motor that gave me a multiplier of 200% for all of my riding, regardless of my input and cadence. If I go Avinox, that how I'll set it up, and I think it would be perfect.
Click to expand...
You already have that type of motor:

Bosch CX4/5

Modes:
SPORT -3 assistance (If memory doesn't fail) ~ 200%, with default settings is around 240%
Tour +4 ASSISTANCE - It's a linear assistance as well.
You can set torque and power to lower values, to reach a desired assistance.

I've set my CX4 with following:
Eco: low power, low assistance for warm up & save battery when it's bellow 5% (you know, like tooth paste... the last bit lasts forever! :) )
Tour: A bit more assistance than default (+1), but torque & power tuned down.
The ebike is derestricted, so on those 2 modes, speed assistance is set at 33km/h (+8km/h than legal required)

eMTB+ = default
Turbo = everything to the max. Basically this is a mode used to recover while climbing (when needed), since I don't like to stop while I'm riding, or for those short rides, with long road/forest trail climbs.

Avinox with such power and assistance, would need to be tuned back to resemble my present settings.
I would like to have more information about tuned down avinox motor, how it feels, battery consumption, etc, rather than the OWHAU reviews, always talking about power, when in reality it's only 1.1KW / 1.5KW.....
 
Zimmerframe said:
I think the problem is that because for years we've all read "250w nominal" - somewhere in everyone's minds that means that all the bikes only have 250w power.

That isn't the case, it's just everyone miss interpreting what that means.

Effectively, the decision was made that 250w nominal was a good baseline number to use for power. All this means is that a motor has to be able to output 250w CONTINUOUSLY- Indefinitely - without overheating.

Pretty much every e-bike motor has had peak power considerably higher than that - the difference is that the peak power can normally only be maintained for a far shorter period - say 20 or 30 minutes as an example before it overheats and restricts it melts.

Even if you take something like a Levo SL motor with it's 35nm. It's actual peak power is nearer 320w.

You don't see everyone building mini trebuchets to throw their toys out of the pram because OH MY GOD, it's got 50% more power than is shown as it's nominal power output.

As we've said previously in the thread, there have been plenty of bikes with high torque and high power outputs over the years, the only difference is that Avinox publish the peak power numbers.

I know lots of people say "I don't need that much power" but 99.9% of people aren't using 100% of the peak power any of their bikes have. Everyone also rides different terrain. Pretty much anyone who rides uphill on steeper terrain will at some point have found themselves in a situation where they'd wished they'd had a little more power.

Obviously there are concerns that Electric Mountain Bikes could turn into Electric Moto's - but for it to be a mountain bike, it still has to be below a certain weight just to be able to ride it like a mountain bike. Once you're into the electric moto zone, you have far far larger and heavier motors which would result in a hideous riding experience. You also have to pedal to engage the power rather than use a throttle, which creates an entirely different riding dynamic.

Yes, there will always be moron's who will ride too fast when it's inappropriate, but that's always been the case. There will always be moron's in any sport or setting who don't think about anyone else - what peak power an electric bicycle can output doesn't and won't stop people being Morons - don't forget, you even get Morons on unassisted bicycles, yes, moron's even exist entirely without any bike at all. Or the ones on Quads who for some reason think empty Monster Energy can's exist purely to randomly decorate the countryside.
Click to expand...
I agree, but only want to add this:

On very technical terrain, Geometry is more important than power.
eBIKE's are not designed for this sort of terrain, and can easily be out of "design envelope".
For steep, techy, difficult climbs (eg: climbing trails that most, if not all, only see it as a DH trail), requires long chain stays (CS) and higher BB.
Personally I don't want longer CS, but wouldn't mind higher BB!

On my rides, even an "old" CX4, with "only" 85Nm and ~600W, can flip or skid while climbing.
Standing and climbing is possible, but can't get the flow I want, stopping and balacing several times, like Trials riders do.

Now that I'm writting this, I need to try shorten the Fork, using a strap, and check if the geometry will help, like in the days of Marzocchi ETA
 
America is a case in point though. You have the common issues with drones, privacy, safety, airspace incursion etc. but also legit intelligence concerns in handing a data rich environment to a Chinese company AND a cognitively crumbling madman at the helm dishing out wax on/wax off tariffs when he's not busy sinking the global economy.



Fangs2k said:
but I don’t think it’s ever been easier than with an Avinox
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This is true & a perfect example of what leads to governments regulating stuff. There's absolutely no way Amflow aren't aware of this & I would suggest it's very deliberate on their part, clearly a major attraction for people to buy a bike they can unchain with a phone over messing about installing devices. Clearly deniable & when the first granny is mown down in the high street, Amflow will deny any responsibility but by that point, eyes will be on the bikes & before you know it, some MP will be on their feet with a private members bill.
 
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