Damn
Crestline x DJI - RS 181 SPECTRE Edition
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
TTEngineer
Member
Ive heard that Crestline has a much higher failure rate compared to other brands due to them using prototype molds.
Most brands are like 3% failure rate, and Ive heard that Crestline is closer to 10%.
So on a run like the Specter that has 300 frames, ~30 failures can be expected.
Have you spoken to Troydon yet? I’m sure he will take care of you, but I am curious as to how the process goes.
That also looked like a very simple bail out. Any idea as to how it failed like that?
Most brands are like 3% failure rate, and Ive heard that Crestline is closer to 10%.
So on a run like the Specter that has 300 frames, ~30 failures can be expected.
Have you spoken to Troydon yet? I’m sure he will take care of you, but I am curious as to how the process goes.
That also looked like a very simple bail out. Any idea as to how it failed like that?
John_likes_bikes
Well-known member
I haven't heard that, what's your source?
Based on just that video I'd say that suspension has seen the bottom a lot.
BikingBad
Active member
It’s not easy to see on video but about 20 feet after landing there are small stack of rocks in the middle of trail. I was trying to avoid them and applied full braking force while my ass got stuck between seat tube and rear tire which forced me forward and that’s when I heard top tube crack.
Troydon and I came to an agreement on fair price to replace it with RS181.2 with M2S system.
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TTEngineer
Member
Well Troydon has said they use prototype molds in several interviews. This allows him to design faster and it’s cheaper. Down side is the molds get out of spec quickly.
An industry insider told me that they have a higher than average failure rate due to the molds. Either way, even if it’s 10%, as long as they take care of the customer, who cares. Is it a frustrating situation, sure. But as long as you’re made whole, does it matter?
Robstyle
Active member
The DH frames were made from proto molds, I'm not sure of the others, but I wonder if the volume being produced from them means it's unlikely. At a 100k a mold, I'd be wanting to save too!
A mold being out of spec causes misalignment, not necessarily a weaker frame. There's definitely variations in different production lines that have seen some frames higher/lower quality than others.
Also @BikingBad I'm genuinely curious what you're hoping to get posting your breakage all over the net? Sounds like it was resolved fairly.
Personally I sit firmly in the 'keeping quiet camp' about things if someone has my back and sorts me out
For counter context, I just got my 5th Crestline, absolutely I've broken things and had issues. I've never ever been let down with any form of support etc from the start. It's been a totally unique experience compared to any other company I've dealt with.
A mold being out of spec causes misalignment, not necessarily a weaker frame. There's definitely variations in different production lines that have seen some frames higher/lower quality than others.
Also @BikingBad I'm genuinely curious what you're hoping to get posting your breakage all over the net? Sounds like it was resolved fairly.
Personally I sit firmly in the 'keeping quiet camp' about things if someone has my back and sorts me out
For counter context, I just got my 5th Crestline, absolutely I've broken things and had issues. I've never ever been let down with any form of support etc from the start. It's been a totally unique experience compared to any other company I've dealt with.
Personally I sit firmly in the 'keeping quiet camp' about things if someone has my back and sorts me out
For counter context, I just got my 5th Crestline, absolutely I've broken things and had issues. I've never ever been let down with any form of support etc from the start. It's been a totally unique experience compared to any other company I've dealt with.
Personally, I see it the opposite way. For me, and I think for most people on this forum, posts like this are valuable because they show both sides of the story: the failure and how the manufacturer handled it.
If failures are quietly kept between the owner and the company, nobody else can make an informed decision. I'd much rather know that a frame can fail, how often it seems to happen, and whether the company stands behind its product when it does.
I don't condone the idea of sweeping these things under the carpet. Transparency benefits everyone, including the manufacturer if they provide good customer support. In this case, it sounds like Troydon worked with BikingBad to reach a fair solution, and that's exactly the kind of information I'd want to know before spending several thousand dollars on a frame.
No bike brand is immune to failures. What matters is how they respond when something does go wrong.
On the other hand, without knowing the full context, a proposal of a paid replacement under warranty does not immediately sound like a fair solution to me. A warranty means standing behind your product when there is a legitimate failure, not offering a customer a replacement but still charging them for something that should potentially be covered.
Of course, there may be details we don't know, so it's difficult to judge this specific case. But this is exactly why transparency and open discussion are important.
Also, @Robstyle if you're willing to share, I’d be genuinely interested to hear what parts you broke or what issues you had and how they were resolved. For me, that kind of real-world feedback from owners is one of the most valuable things when considering a bike or a component.
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I’m confused. Was a no cost replacement frame not given as an option? Did you just prefer to upgrade to the plaid?
BikingBad
Active member
erikulator
Member
Looks like the exact spot where one would incorrectly attach a bike to a mechanic stand
To clarify, you mean it was not fully covered under warranty because you crashed or was this due to frame stand clamping as mentioned above?
This is a bit concerning, certainly would love to know why this failed and also why it's not covered under warranty.
My bike has seen 1000x the stress of anything demonstrated in that video.
Pushing forward on the seattube and it buckling where it did makes me think the tube was already compromised. You don't have one of those bike racks that holds the frame in the middle right?
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EmtbFanatic
Member
You have a taint of steal my friend
I love what Troyden does, but generally speaking, ya, it matters a lot actually.
I had a buddy that flew to Whistler with his new Pole, and it broke 10 min into his first run on a bunny jump and definitely effected his entire vacation in several ways such as adding a lot of additional expense, downtime, etc. There is also a real safety issue. Furthermore, some might not be able to afford to pay the discounted upcharge for the new one, or in the case of a Crestie, it might not even be available for months.
I'll tell you that I've read enough Orbea failure stories, almost exclusively on the Al bikes thankfully, that it gave me pause.
Also, I don't even remotely believe that proper molds cost $100K. I'd guess 1/5 of that max.
So, ya, reliability does matter quite a bit.
TTEngineer
Member
I was more referring to the jump from 3% industry standard to 10%.
Robstyle
Active member
I heard Troydon say about the mold cost, I was surprised too.
I dunno this seems like a lot of speculation. If Troydon was being truthful on the podcast the reason for the prototype molds was because the production runs for Crestline are much smaller than a big brand and a prototype mold won't last for large production run. Our friend who broke his frame didn't really go into detail on the failure and conditions around the agreement with Troydon, so we don't actually know if it was truly a reliability issue or a misuse issue (clamping the frame in the wrong spot). I'm not that worried, seems like the frames are built in a reputable factory designed by a industry veteran and if our friend's frame failed from all the bottoming out he's been doing that's not a bad spot to have a failure, certainly better than the head tube sheering off.
As an engineer, can you tell me what makes a prototype mold different than a production mold? How do the costs differ? Why does it wear out faster? Does it matter if it wears out faster if you're only using it for a small run of products?
I'm not specifically familiar with the molds used for making bike frames. All molds wear, and in the old days you'd send them out for repair. Then it became less expensive to just have new molds made abroad, than to repair them domestically. Are bike frame molds substantially different?
Just watched the video. Not covering this under warranty is ludicrous and very concerning. I'd be pissed. Seems obvious the frame was defective because it shouldn't break on such a minor impact. Makes me think hard now before buying a Crestline.
Stress reveals character. Disappointing to learn Crestline's is questionable.
Brotha just stick to your Levo you been thinking hard about Orbea too with a lot to say about that bike as well
The guy probably clamped it. We don’t know the full story here. Owner doesn’t seem too worked up about it so maybe he knows something we don’t (like frame clamping).
Theres 1 EMTB frame in the world cup DH circuit. I think it’s perfectly fine for our tiny little jumps and drops we do.
Are you suggesting forum members should only comment on the bike(s) we currently own? I've commented in this forum that I would already own a Crestline if I could buy one; and I was ready to buy a Wild LT until I confirmed Orbea neutered their Avinox, but isn't that irrelevant anyway?
The whole concern with composite bike components is that there's more room for variations that result in failure. I think that's the most-plausible explanation here. I'm obviously not the only member who feels that way as referenced in the talk of mold deterioration in this thread. Sure, it could be that OP clamped his frame, but I'm giving him more credit than that.
The real issue is how things are handled when they inevitably go bad. Thats what I'm referencing when I say stress reveals character. Crestline simply disappointed me here. I expected better.
You seem to be particularly annoyed by me for whatever reason. For that I will say I am sorry. I do not intend to cause you or anyone else angst. Keep in mind there's a block function you can use to hide my activity if it bothers you. Be well.
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I think a lot of ppl annoyed with you (with me too probably lol).
If we find out frame was clamped and then broke in a separate incident would you feel the same? Maybe that’s the case and owner/troydon are aware and came to an agreement. Troydon is top notch. I’ve personally texted him and have even been given a very generous deal myself by troydon. One incident that you don’t know all the facts to shouldn’t turn you off on crestline. Like I said, owner doesn’t seem bummed by the resolution, so why should you?
I'm operating under the belief that there's near zero Crestline owners that would be so inexperienced that they would clamp their frame. I'm willing to suspend disbelief on that, but then I'd also have to suspend disbelief that the bike owner would openly admit to doing that during a warranty claim. Thats two details that seem really, really far from the most plausible scenario... and when you don't have all the facts the best thing to do is rely on the most plausible explanation.
I'm not sure how bummed the bike owner is. I'm not an expert on what's going through the bike owner's head. However, I am the world's expert on what's going through my own head; and I know I'd be pissed if my boutique, top-of-the-line bike wasn't warrantied after the frame cracked during a very minor incident.
I don't think it was clamping the frame either... its a stretch to think anyone who is building up a $7k frame would do that. If you look at the thumbnail for the video the crack is right behind the bottle cage rivnut. He said he got caught between the rear wheel and seat tube, so his body weight pressing the seat tube forward could for sure put a lot of mechanical bending force right into a potential weak point in that top tube. Is that a warranty issue? I can see an argument either way. I don't think bike frames were really meant to take a hit from that direction, and I don't know if other carbon frames would've handled that impact better. I also don't think those rivnuts were necessary, and probably introduced a weak spot in the top tube. I now kinda wish he left those out if it meant a stronger frame.
I, without a doubt, would not be happy if a minor bike incident like that caused a catastrophic failure and it wasn't covered by warranty.
I, without a doubt, would not be happy if a minor bike incident like that caused a catastrophic failure and it wasn't covered by warranty.
TTEngineer
Member
I’m a civil engineer. I work for a multi family development partnership, so that’s not a question in my wheelhouse.
An industrial or mechanical engineer would be better suited for that question.
Molds due wear out the more they are used though, and I would assume that it happens faster in a “prototype” mold.
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