Charging methods - battery health

[Tamas]

Even though I carelessly charge my batteries 100% after every ride, I do understand your point and I'd also be interested in hearing/seeing battery reports from those of us who have had their bike few months already.

I think we could see if it's 'careless' or it doesn't really matter after ~50 charging cycles.

 

[Tamas]

There are billions and billions going into battery research every year, most notably for electric cars, electric aircraft and mass storage solutions. As a result the storage and management of lithium ion batteries is very well understood by industry - don't deep discharge, don't store at elevated SOC, don't store, charge or use packs at very high or very low temperatures, don't overcharge, and don't pull current at greater than the C rating of the pack. Remember, the packs in our bikes are nothing revolutionary - they are the same in chemistry terms as the vast majority of rechargeable consumer devices bought today.

The problem is not a lack of understanding of the batteries overall, it's that the bike industry is very new to this whole space. Even manufacturers have undoubtedly had battery experts involved in designing their packs, the informationon usage and care does not seem to be filtering down into the instructions for consumers or training to mechanics in your LBS. The result are these jumbled guidance form manufacturers on battery care, different warranty terms and expected cycle lives from the different manufacturers, and general confusion amongst consumers as a result on how to care for their pack. Cynics might also suggest it is in the manufacturers interest not to teanch people how to optimally use their battery; certainly reviewing the guidance in the Levo manual online had me thinking that, so vague was the advice.

Yes, most manufacturers put out vague info but I think Bosch has some good stuff on their site:
11 questions about the eBike battery

 

[100 Cols]

Shimano says 70% charge level is advised only if storing longer than 6 months.

My STEPS battery is empty. Do I need to charge it right away?
You need to charge it back up to 70% if you plan to directly store your bike for six months or more. Otherwise, if you plan to use your bike in the very near future, simply charge the battery before your next ride.

 

[estoril]

I just ride and re-charge, the battery is left on charge between rides, sometimes a week at a time. IIRC the Specialized charger charges to 90% quickly then trickle charges the last 10%, anything else is just too complicated!

 

[Gary]

I think we could see if it's 'careless' or it doesn't really matter after ~50 charging cycles.

mine has twice that in charging cycles right up to fully charged.
Where do I find the App and will it work on an Android tablet?

 

[Tamas]

mine has twice that in charging cycles right up to fully charged.
Where do I find the App and will it work on an Android tablet?

It's the E-Tube Project app and I only tried it on iOS but I think it has the same features on Android. There are two versions of it - smartphone and the tablet - and the tablet version has the diagnostic function.

etubeprojectmobile.droid.tablet

 

[Gary]

Thanks.

Only tablet I have access to is my 9yr olds Android. it's 4 years old and running android 4.4 so the unfortunately the App won't work on it.
Just tried it on my phone and for some reason it won't install.
Disclaimer: I don't really understand the difference between a tablet and a phone other than pysical size and the fact phones have network coverage)

 

[Tamas]

Thanks.

Only tablet I have access to is my 9yr olds Android. it's 4 years old and running android 4.4 so the unfortunately the App won't work on it.
Just tried it on my phone and for some reason it won't install.
Disclaimer: I don't really understand the difference between a tablet and a phone other than pysical size and the fact phones have network coverage)

I have absolutely no idea why Shimano made two versions it doesn't make much sense to me either. I have the bike for a year and I was under the impression that they are the same. After setting up the modes at the beginning I only connected a couple of times to update the firmware. Last time I did it on my tablet and I noticed the 'extra options'.

 

[Nautonier]

View attachment 8172

That is a very impressive amount of elevation gain. You're in a very good position to verify my speculation that one fully charged E8010 battery will provide about 1500m of vertical at a relatively constant (steepish 7 - 15%) gradient using 80% trail mode 20% boost mode. Obviously this also depends somewhat on cadence and user input, but I think it's really important to have a solid idea of what sort of vertical the bike will do when planning big rides. I can't think of any single climbs (in AU anyway) that would exceed one batteries capacity, but if I was planning 3 ascents of a 600m climb, I'd need to think about where and when to put on a second battery. I've already been caught short on a climb and pedalling a 22kg bike with no assist really isn't that much fun.

A 10% drop in the batteries capacity would equate to significantly less vertical.

 

[Deleted member 1478]

A 10% drop in the batteries capacity would equate to significantly less vertical.

I have a 17.5 ah battery on my commuter. After 2 years it attenuated to 60% of its original range. Most of the attenuation seemed to happen over the hot summer months.

Now 17.5 ah @ 60% still gives 50km around here. It’s bearable. But @60% on the e8010 steps battery (14 ah) will severely curtail the usefulness of the bike.

I do wish Shimano would bring out a bigger downtube-mount battery option for retrofit. I don’t care about the weight.

Or even better, some el cheapo aftermarket battery option that talks to the esteps software would be great. This original manufacturer battery monopoly seems to be choice limiting wallet extraction.

 

[Mattwilko92]

Don’t forget the degradation also depends on the quality of the cell. I.e the batteries, manufacturing process, quality of the lithium used etc etc

Comparing it to a £50 laptop battery isn’t comparable.

 

[Creatorex]

We are always arguing about it. The high temps affects when charging so it's better to charge when battery is at ambien temp, ideally 20º. And short charges in my opinion. As per short charges do not heat battery and let's say impact less in battery quemicals. As per Specialized states after 300 charge cycles or 2 yearsyou'll get 75% of charge capacity. A charge cycle means 100%, so theorically if you charge 30% you need 3,1 charges to get 1 full charge cycle... and etc... MY battery is now 1year and 8 months and I have 458wh capacity, which means 90,87% so far away of the 75% yet. So all depends on your use and how much you stress your bat!

 

[KO2019]

FWIW Specialized Battery 3 weeks old, full charge overnight, normal commute uses down to 3-25% charge depending on head wind/effort put in. Now on 31 charge cycles 100% battery health. Based on this usage it will be out of warranty in leas than four months. Theory suggests if I only charge to 80% and use only down to 20% that should extend the battery life significantly, hope so as they aren’t cheap! Be interesting to hear from any other high mileage users on battery life beyond 300 charge cycles?

 

[estoril]

For me, 300 cycles are going to equate to about 12,500 miles so I doubt I'll be wearing it out! So far I've done about 1500 miles and 36 charge cycles.

(Spec Turbo Levo expert 700w battery)

 

[Kingfisher]

If charging batteries the same (proper way) which battery will last more charge cycles shimano or brose? Both 500wh

Here's something that will blow your mind: all those batteries, as are the batteries of a Tesla, and that powerpack of your Metabo drill are all powered by the same simple 18650 battery cell. Every battery pack you buy is simply a multiple of 18650's, it's size is determined by the cluster formation of 18650's

So they're all the same.

 

[Stuart569]

Here's something that will blow your mind: all those batteries, as are the batteries of a Tesla, and that powerpack of your Metabo drill are all powered by the same simple 18650 battery cell. Every battery pack you buy is simply a multiple of 18650's, it's size is determined by the cluster formation of 18650's

So they're all the same.

That's like saying a AA from Tesco is the same as a Duracell AA. Yes it will work but not for as long...

 

[Flatslide]

Here's something that will blow your mind: all those batteries, as are the batteries of a Tesla, and that powerpack of your Metabo drill are all powered by the same simple 18650 battery cell. Every battery pack you buy is simply a multiple of 18650's, it's size is determined by the cluster formation of 18650's

So they're all the same.

Same form factor, different chemistry. Li ion performance, like other types of redox batteries, can be altered with a different internal chemical make up. Some batteries are designed specifically for slower discharge and other's for high. Tesla now use 2170 format cells as they have 46% more volume compared to 18650. According to the Battery Uni site, e-bikes are most likely to have Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide: LiNiMnCoO2.

 

[outerlimits]

I prefer just to weigh my pennies, rather than faf about with charge techniques. When the pennies weigh right, I buy a new battery ?‍
You can get an extra 12km out of a chainring if you clean, debur with a file and check tolerances with a micrometer after every ride.

 

[Stuart569]

I prefer just to weigh my pennies, rather than faf about with charge techniques. When the pennies weigh right, I buy a new battery ?‍
You can get an extra 12km out of a chainring if you clean, debur with a file and check tolerances with a micrometer after every ride.

Did you have a stroke whilst writing that? It doesn't make much sense.

 

[wepn]

Fair enough to charge as you will, life's complicated enough as it is.

Be that as it may, it's not that complicated to keep SOC % at midrange when range isn't needed then charge to 80% or 100% before you ride depending on your expected requirements.

 

[MB1]

Ansmann make a timer plug for about £10 purpose built for charging. You can set it up to 8h if I recall correctly. It makes charging after a ride to around 60%/70% easy; roughly 2h on a 4A charger.

 

[wepn]

Ansmann make a timer plug for about £10 purpose built for charging. You can set it up to 8h if I recall correctly. It makes charging after a ride to around 60%/70% easy; roughly 2h on a 4A charger.

That's an inexpensive, simple & excellent way to lengthen the calendar life of your expensive battery pack.

I have a Cycle Satiator from Grintech that I use with a bike with which I don't blow my warranty by using a 3rd party charger. It's programable so that I can charge at low or regular current to whatever SOC % I need. For example 100% for long range, 80% medium range, 70% or 60% for everyday and say 30% for storage.

Using reduced current & lower SOC, expected lifespan can be very substantially extended. Not difficult.

Ironic that by extending battery pack lifespan, you lose your warranty with most manufacturers. Reason? Some will probably attempt fast charging and in doing so, dramatically reduce expected lifespan.

 

[Flatslide]

Being a 48V system with a fan cooled 5A charger, the PowerPlay doesn't take long to charge. I set a timer on my phone to monitor it. Through the middle of the pack 30%-80%, it will charge at a rate of 10% for every 15-20 minutes.

 

[wepn]

I prefer just to weigh my pennies, rather than faf about with charge techniques. When the pennies weigh right, I buy a new battery ?‍
You can get an extra 12km out of a chainring if you clean, debur with a file and check tolerances with a micrometer after every ride.

With most ebike chargers, you have no ability to set the full charge voltage and have to accept topping it up to 4.2 V/cell. This gives the most range on a charge, but if you don’t require the full capacity of your battery on most of your trips then you are unnecessarily reducing the battery life every time you charge it. In many cases that means replacing your ~$1000 lithium battery pack every 1-2 years, when with proper management it could be lasting more like 4-5 years.

That's a lot of unnecessary pennies ?‍

 

[outerlimits]

That's a lot of unnecessary pennies ?‍

Well I don’t faf about with charging, but my $1000 pack is still going strong well after 2 years. ?thought I was only supposed to get 1-2years out of it if I read that right ?‍ Really, you are not going to increase the lifespan by 100% or more no matter what you do. You may get a tiny gain, by babying it, but for the effort, is it going to be tangible ??so I may as well clean, file and debur my chainring after every ride to get an extra 12km of use ?‍If I was that paranoid bout getting every last drop out of the bike ?‍

 

[wepn]

Obviously whatever you're doing isn't that bad and I hope it keeps on going for you.

Maybe you charge before you ride not after? That makes a big difference.

 

[Growmac]

I spent the first 10 months of my E8030 battery's life charging it to 100% after a ride. Many rides I use the whole charge. Bike lives in the garage, and I charged on the bike.

I now have 49 charge cycles, 81% health, and the battery can't provide full current once it's below an indicated 40% - it just cuts out. Reserve used to be good for about 10 km easy riding, now it either cuts immediately, or only lasts a couple of hundred metres.

I've bought a second battery, and I'm being really careful with it. Indoors in the warm, back up to about 60% and only charge to 100% on the day of a ride. So far 100% health and reserve / low power behaviour is normal (after only 4 cycles I should hope so, but it proves it's not something else in the system). I'll let you know how I get on.