- May 27, 2019
- 7
- 46
This thread is for the general discussion of the Article Avinox M2S: 1,500W, 150Nm, and a PR Offensive. Please add to the discussion here.
Avinox M2S: 1,500W, 150Nm, and a PR Offensive
- Thread starter EMTB Forums Staff
- Start date
Plenty of M1 owners said the same thing on forums last year: the motor was already more than they needed, and what they actually wanted was a lighter version that rode more like a normal bike.
Part of me wants to go and get an M2S and be the prick that flies up the fire road at 25km/h. Because that’s what’s going to be happening, whether I do or not, so I might as well enjoy it. And it might be for a limited time...
I think Avinox are very shrewd marketers. They became the focus very quickly because of the torque and power numbers, and look at the number of OEMs on board now - a roaring success for their business. But it seems to me they did this by overstepping a gentleman’s agreement. Take Bosch for example - they were able to go from 85nm to 120nm just with firmware. So it seems like if they had been pursuing these sorts of big numbers when they made the Gen 5 or even Gen 4, they would have designed it differently and had bigger numbers - and thus be able to crank it up to even more now. Then those figures Avinox released with the M1 wouldn’t have been anything new.
It’s pretty obvious that blokes - the majority of eMTB users - like big power numbers. There’s an undeniable fact that “mines bigger than yours” sells - anything. It’s just the male ego. And Avinox capitalised on that. There might be a big price to pay, and not by Avinox in the end.
Seems the trail issue is definitely going to be a big issue in some places, like parts of the US. Will it be here? I dunno. We have issues with rampant teenagers on (non-EMTB) bikes tearing shit up. That’s going to come to a head at some point, and I wonder if we’ll end up caught up in that i.e. being hardcore policed, forced to comply, maybe even laws to confiscate non-legal bikes (completely believable in Australia).
There’s been plenty of times when I’ve been on a turbo ride in the forest, and I’m loving it, but the speed at which I’m catching and passing people feels pretty rude… afterwards. In the moment with adrenaline surging I’m just going for it. And I’m talking about on a 85nm speed restricted Bosch, and I'm heavy. If I had an Avinox I wouldn’t be obeying 25km/h. That’s just the reality. When I was 20 I drove every car like I stole it. It’s what I end up doing on an eMTB, being a kid again. I’m sure I’m not alone…
It would be awesome to see what Avinox could do shooting for lighter and 600w/80nm or something. I dunno, maybe it doesn’t get a whole lot lighter than the M2S anyway, in which case, why would they?
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. It will also be interesting to see what Bosch does. I don't think people really appreciate how big and serious of an engineering company Bosch is. I think they weren't trying to make motors this crazy. And being EU they may still not.
Here in Aus you can freely buy ebikes that aren’t legal (not just EMTB, non-pedal behemoths) and they're everywhere. I can’t see it lasting, but it's not going to be real easy to police either. So the Avinox is just a fraction of that problem.
I think Avinox are very shrewd marketers. They became the focus very quickly because of the torque and power numbers, and look at the number of OEMs on board now - a roaring success for their business. But it seems to me they did this by overstepping a gentleman’s agreement. Take Bosch for example - they were able to go from 85nm to 120nm just with firmware. So it seems like if they had been pursuing these sorts of big numbers when they made the Gen 5 or even Gen 4, they would have designed it differently and had bigger numbers - and thus be able to crank it up to even more now. Then those figures Avinox released with the M1 wouldn’t have been anything new.
It’s pretty obvious that blokes - the majority of eMTB users - like big power numbers. There’s an undeniable fact that “mines bigger than yours” sells - anything. It’s just the male ego. And Avinox capitalised on that. There might be a big price to pay, and not by Avinox in the end.
Seems the trail issue is definitely going to be a big issue in some places, like parts of the US. Will it be here? I dunno. We have issues with rampant teenagers on (non-EMTB) bikes tearing shit up. That’s going to come to a head at some point, and I wonder if we’ll end up caught up in that i.e. being hardcore policed, forced to comply, maybe even laws to confiscate non-legal bikes (completely believable in Australia).
There’s been plenty of times when I’ve been on a turbo ride in the forest, and I’m loving it, but the speed at which I’m catching and passing people feels pretty rude… afterwards. In the moment with adrenaline surging I’m just going for it. And I’m talking about on a 85nm speed restricted Bosch, and I'm heavy. If I had an Avinox I wouldn’t be obeying 25km/h. That’s just the reality. When I was 20 I drove every car like I stole it. It’s what I end up doing on an eMTB, being a kid again. I’m sure I’m not alone…
It would be awesome to see what Avinox could do shooting for lighter and 600w/80nm or something. I dunno, maybe it doesn’t get a whole lot lighter than the M2S anyway, in which case, why would they?
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. It will also be interesting to see what Bosch does. I don't think people really appreciate how big and serious of an engineering company Bosch is. I think they weren't trying to make motors this crazy. And being EU they may still not.
Here in Aus you can freely buy ebikes that aren’t legal (not just EMTB, non-pedal behemoths) and they're everywhere. I can’t see it lasting, but it's not going to be real easy to police either. So the Avinox is just a fraction of that problem.
Honestly, the additional power and 45kph is genuinely useful for faster fire road climbs and commuting to work if you use it for that too. Outside of that, I would personally never need that much power on an actual trail.
That being said, having access to a wide power range and being able to customize multiple modes to suit YOUR riding preferences and terrain is great. It adds a lot of additional versatility that some riders may not have been able to have before.
Should there be limits so that bikes are safe to use while also accommodating a wide range of users? Yes.
Is the Avinox system so far beyond what those limits should realistically be? In my eyes, probably not. But I don't see the need to push it any further either.
That being said, having access to a wide power range and being able to customize multiple modes to suit YOUR riding preferences and terrain is great. It adds a lot of additional versatility that some riders may not have been able to have before.
Should there be limits so that bikes are safe to use while also accommodating a wide range of users? Yes.
Is the Avinox system so far beyond what those limits should realistically be? In my eyes, probably not. But I don't see the need to push it any further either.
"Spec sheets sell bikes" of course it does and always have.
Avinox motors and software is one of a kind but the rest is medium and it's a lot more to think about before ordering Amflow.
My conclusion only.
Avinox motors and software is one of a kind but the rest is medium and it's a lot more to think about before ordering Amflow.
My conclusion only.
Hello,
I’m not an expert on the Avinox motor either, but does Avinox have GPS? Is it really possible to increase the speed limit if the GPS detects that you are in a country with speed regulations?
If Avinox does not use this kind of restriction, does that mean they are simply ignoring the regulators?
Thanks
I’m not an expert on the Avinox motor either, but does Avinox have GPS? Is it really possible to increase the speed limit if the GPS detects that you are in a country with speed regulations?
If Avinox does not use this kind of restriction, does that mean they are simply ignoring the regulators?
Thanks
Vision_Tim
New Member
I think the issue is not Avinox at all - it's EMTBs being lumped in with the unlimited amount of cheaper throttle ebikes on the road. In NYC it's the delivery riders. In the suburbs its the kids on Suron clones. Being lumped together is the issue.
The linked article seems pretty balanced to be honest, and summarises it pretty well I thought, including the questions it’s arrival raises.
I’m not sure anybody, including me, will be able to add anything to the debate that hasn’t been said multiple times in multiple threads already though!
I’m not sure anybody, including me, will be able to add anything to the debate that hasn’t been said multiple times in multiple threads already though!
I've said it before. I'll say it again. If climbing technical terrain is your jiz. Then Avinox is the only motor system you want. If descending technical terrain is your jiz. Then there are lots of options.
The skills I have learnt from being able to climb terrain, never previously thought imaginable, is undeniable. In my MTB club, I have gone from being in the bottom 50%, to one of the best riders, in the 12 months of Avinox ownership. We have over 900 members.
In the last 3 months, I've been rewarded with a senior position in the Club, and given the ability to host riding events. What I also have noticed is that everyone wants to ride with me, due to the terrain I can now take people. I can put this meteoric rise, fully down to the Avinox Motor System, combined with the lighter weight of the Amflow platform. (My previous bike was a Merida E160, with a Shimano EP801)
And the other very noticeable fact is many MTB riders from our club, have seen the terrain I can now conquer, without stopping, and are changing their minds about changing to an EMTB.
Now I know this sounds extraordinary and boastful. But the Avinox System makes this big a difference. I see it as a complete gamechanger, and have no interest in a 600 watt lighter system.
The skills I have learnt from being able to climb terrain, never previously thought imaginable, is undeniable. In my MTB club, I have gone from being in the bottom 50%, to one of the best riders, in the 12 months of Avinox ownership. We have over 900 members.
In the last 3 months, I've been rewarded with a senior position in the Club, and given the ability to host riding events. What I also have noticed is that everyone wants to ride with me, due to the terrain I can now take people. I can put this meteoric rise, fully down to the Avinox Motor System, combined with the lighter weight of the Amflow platform. (My previous bike was a Merida E160, with a Shimano EP801)
And the other very noticeable fact is many MTB riders from our club, have seen the terrain I can now conquer, without stopping, and are changing their minds about changing to an EMTB.
Now I know this sounds extraordinary and boastful. But the Avinox System makes this big a difference. I see it as a complete gamechanger, and have no interest in a 600 watt lighter system.
bmwpowere36m3
Member
When the Avinox drive system is registered via the app, the location and any speed restrictions are based on the IP address of the device running the app. There's no ongoing usage of the Avinox GPS to determine and regulate based on where the bike is ridden.
Whereas with Bosch, the motor is programed prior to delivery to customer with location based restrictions.
Neither system is perfect, because what happens if you move to another country or go on holiday? With Avinox, folks can exploit the registration process using VPN to spoof their location. This is unique to Avinox, as far as I'm aware. All other drive systems come to consumers set for the market in which their sold.
I wouldn't want a 600w battery the 700 on my Amflow px is to small for my rides. I've managed 5500 ft of climbing with the motor power turned down and having to use the echo setting a bit, finished with 3% left.I need the range extender but will that ever come out?
I think so.
@Greg Watts some of your figures are off on your table in the article as explained by @DylanJM
The 600W mentioned in the article is referring to a lower power SL motor with 600W peak output.
Avinox already has 600wh batteries available.
People are going to abuse the extra power, it's human nature.
Better to make everyone climb even the boring fire road at Class 1 e-bike speeds. Is it really that big of a problem all of the sudden when just 5 years ago we were all doing it on just our legs?
Slow down a bit, you mind find it cathartic.
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Fair point, and @DylanJM is right to flag it - cheers to @Zimmerframe for the nudge. Two corrections to note on the table:
Rocky Mountain Dyname 4.0 - the official figure is 1000W (region-restricted). The number in the table was wrong.
Specialized 3.1 - the current verified spec is 105Nm (non-S-Works) or 111Nm (S-Works tune), measured at approximately 810W / 850W respectively on independent dyno. Not 90Nm - that belongs to the older 2.2/Brose-based motor. A firmware-era mix-up, which is embarrassing given how often that distinction comes up.
I can't promise the article itself will be edited retroactively, but the correct figures are on record here. If the article was partly AI-assisted, this is exactly the sort of spec drift that slips through - motors change with firmware, and a stale database entry produces confidently wrong tables. Not an excuse, just an explanation.
So, you have the fastest bike, and now you go the fastest, congrats.
Reasonable limits should apply to keep things as 'e-bikes' and not e-motorcycles.
Honestly, the u-tube personalities have played a large part in normalizing this. Racing e-bikes up hills and determining that the faster one is clearly the better 'bike'. No, it's a Class 3 bike racing against a Class 1 bike, so of course it's faster. Should I line up my GSXR against a scooter next and behave as if some technical marvel has been introduced when the GSXR wins?
Honestly, the anti-e-bike crowd has been proven to be 100% correct regarding the slippery slope. It's occurring right before our eyes.
I'm not the fastest. I'm one of the most cable when it comes to climbing technical terrain. I know you are all about the downhill, and this climbing thing is not something you enjoy. But I can assure you. Get a light weight Aninox powered EMTB, and discover a whole new sport.
The anti-EMTB sentiment has all but disappeared in my state in Australia. That's because all EMTBs are EN15194 compliant. My state actually requires local certification of EN15194 compliance for the EMTBs. You literally can't buy an EMTB without the certification from a shop in NSW.
The only issue we have, is rogue shops selling illegal e-motos. We have zero EMTB issues.
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OT: But I'm a quite strong technical climber, better on my bike actually than I've ever been able to get on e-bikes. My riding is more All Mountain and is very technical up and down.
I don't doubt it. You are not riding a 20kg Avinox powered EMTB like I am. I seriously implore you to train on one. In a few months. You'll be astounded at what you can climb.
I literally spent a full month going out every day practicing to use the additional power, torque and overrun to climb.
BTW. Can I just add. One of the secrets to using the power, is to use your brakes when trying to control it.
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Agreed. I doubt whether there will be any original comments added here, although that won't stop people thinking their opinion is something novel.I’m not sure anybody, including me, will be able to add anything to the debate that hasn’t been said multiple times in multiple threads already though!
I did 4k miles on the MK1 PL, power wise I thought that was enough tbh. So far about 1k miles in on the 26 Pro and Px with the higher power motor. Have to say there are some tracks were I have found the higher power really useful, but it does burn up the battery as you would expect. I also found that it took a lot more time to find the right balance in the app set up now to get decent battery life, but got there in the end .Could not be anymore happy with the latest motor and battery setup, can easily see why the likes of UNNO and Atherton along with so many other brands run this set up, it’s really is the class leader and by a significant margin. Makes some other high end bike makers look like “ Startups “…
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Literally the referenced story is titled an opinion piece. Literally the OP asked us to discuss the opinion piece. Try reading. Then typing.
You're missing the point; it's NOT Class 1. Of course, it's faster/ climbs better than a Class 1.
Another stroppy and non-original comment from you. Just adds to my case. All more of the same. The presence of the opinion piece won't make any difference, and I doubt whether most of the posters will have read it. But go ahead and add another characteristically aggressive reply. Sometimes they're even amusing.
Could yougive some more details on your app settings as you have had the mk1 and now the PX.
The first thing I do when I go ride is put mine into class 3 mode. Depending on the trail I then ride about a mile down a paved road or 4 miles down a gravel road to the trail heads. The speed limit on both of those roads is 35mph but most cars go faster. My 28mph max is nothing.
Many of the trails on public land around here got approved by being classified as multi-use. The old women with too much free time would protest a MTB-only trail system but are happy with it if they are allowed to walk them once or twice with their off-leash dogs. With the exception of several clearly marked downhill-only trails, it's entirely possible that you can come up on a hiker, horse or loose dog. We ride accordingly and it has nothing to do with what's underneath us.
Other than those public roads to get to where I'm going, the only clue that I'm on an emtb is when I politely pass an analogue bike with a more fit rider on an uphill stretch. Other than that, the "e" component of my emtb is irrelevant.
The small number of people acting like twats will act like twats on any bike. They are the problem, not the bike. Punishing the rest of us with legitimate use cases and adequate impulse control is madness.
Many of the trails on public land around here got approved by being classified as multi-use. The old women with too much free time would protest a MTB-only trail system but are happy with it if they are allowed to walk them once or twice with their off-leash dogs. With the exception of several clearly marked downhill-only trails, it's entirely possible that you can come up on a hiker, horse or loose dog. We ride accordingly and it has nothing to do with what's underneath us.
Other than those public roads to get to where I'm going, the only clue that I'm on an emtb is when I politely pass an analogue bike with a more fit rider on an uphill stretch. Other than that, the "e" component of my emtb is irrelevant.
The small number of people acting like twats will act like twats on any bike. They are the problem, not the bike. Punishing the rest of us with legitimate use cases and adequate impulse control is madness.
You’re not wrong!
If there was a ‘Top Gun’ school for EMTB riders, you’d definitely be an instructor!
I could do, but we all ride different on different trails. What I would say is with the Mk2 is that you can run with less power than what you think you need. This really helps battery range.
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