Are Shimano staying in the motor game ?

[jooles]

I ask as the e8000 is now around 4 years old. There is limited field service support for the motor apart from "replace it" and Shimano, unlike say Bosch and Brose have never specialised in motors.

Thoughts ?

 

[jk-]

Shimano comming out with a new motor.

There is a thread about it here

Shimano EP8 info - EMTB Forums

Can anyone confirm whether the upcoming EP8 can be swapped into existing E8000 bikes and whether it will even be available for sale to do so? Had originally planned to wait to buy a 2021 bike, but sort of dont want to wait anymore since my usual chairlift riding seems like it will be a no go...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[jooles]

Ah they are still alive then.

However will it be a matter of "if out of warranty issue throw it away"

I have to say my choice of future EMtb isn't just about kinematics, geometry, motor power or apps but which company provides a good life cycle support of the motor. The one part of an EMtb that can't be sorted by your average LBS.

So I'd...at the moment... discount Shimano even though I have one and do think it's a good unit. But if it goes bang in 6 months I'm stuffed...

Cheers.

J

 

[electricbogaloo]

But is it really a problem to get a motor if your out of warranty? Here you can sometimes buy it at retailers or get it at the European distributor.

Also in a another forum some people claim to have ridden a new motor by Shimano which is visibly smaller and works on 48V but I don't know if this is true since other folk claim that new New motor will be upgradeable.

 

[highpeakrider]

Shimano would be top of my list based on 2500 trouble free miles.

 

[jooles]

Not on mine after twice sending back and one replacement on 750 miles.

Granted do bike in an area that's hard on components and when the motor works is a great unit.

 

[Fivetones]

But is it really a problem to get a motor if your out of warranty? Here you can sometimes buy it at retailers or get it at the European distributor.

Also in a another forum some people claim to have ridden a new motor by Shimano which is visibly smaller and works on 48V but I don't know if this is true since other folk claim that new New motor will be upgradeable.

Got a link?

What make you think there’s just one motor coming? ?

As for whether I’d buy Shimano at the moment. They’re no worse or better for support than all the others on balance. In addition the E8000 still holds up well by current standards. Particularly when you go beyond numbers and ride one.

 

[Zero]

Got a link?

What make you think there’s just one motor coming?

As for whether I’d buy Shimano at the moment. They’re no worse or better for support than all the others on balance. In addition the E8000 still holds up well by current standards. Particularly when you go beyond numbers and ride one.

Well you can get a spesh brose changed while you wait and no questions asked if faulty. Plus shops keep them in stock.

Good luck getting that from bosch or shimano.

 

[jooles]

Agree with Shimano Vs Brose Vs Bosch.

I'm not bashing performance. Shimano got it right early on. Plus created a motor with normal sized chain ring and positioned axle so chainstay length wasn't huge. Hats off to them for that. Game changer.

However I've known of many bikers in the UK who have had Shimano issues. This is fine in warranty. Afterwards not.

If you can replace a bearing on Bosch for £65 great. A belt on Brose for similar great. A bearing goes on Shimano. New motor.

That's like saying if your fork seals go you need a new fork. Your BB bearings go you need a new frame.

Buying a new e800 isn't easy either. Same form factor but different torque and angle of install settings means you need to go back to manufacturer.

Shimano need to address this. The motors may be fine in dry loamy conditions. In crud. Grime. Wet. It's going to knacker the bearings at least. New motor.

So this is a shout out to Shimano. Make a motor that can be maintained. Please. You make great kit for us and operate in an iterative manner (12 speed) so please look at this

No bashing. Just commenting.

Jules

 

[electricbogaloo]

Got a link?

What make you think there’s just one motor coming? ?

As for whether I’d buy Shimano at the moment. They’re no worse or better for support than all the others on balance. In addition the E8000 still holds up well by current standards. Particularly when you go beyond numbers and ride one.

unfortunately in german:

Neuer Shimano Motor: EP8

Der E8000 hat doch vier Unterstützungsstufen: Bio - Eco - Trail - Boost ;)

www.pedelecforum.de

 

[Fivetones]

Neuer Shimano Motor: EP8

Der E8000 hat doch vier Unterstützungsstufen: Bio - Eco - Trail - Boost ;)

translate.google.com

Like a few in this linked thread the road/SL type motor could be a separate 48v battery/motor setup That’s different to a bolt/battery compatible ep8. Who knows? End of July by the looks of it.

 

[R120]

I think it’s important to remember that we are in the early days of EMTB, and that actually the primary reason for failure of all motors is the forces that aggressive MTB riding puts though them.

The Brose systems in the Specilized suffer from other issues due to poor design if the wiring systems and connectors, and a lot of the failures we see on here are more of a system failure than just the motor - one reason I won’t buy a specialised woth the Brose is not just the motor issues, but actually all the other electrical gremlins which are far more commonplace than the motor going bang.

I have had a Shimano motor fail, had something like 2.5k miles on it from memory. Ridden in all conditions, right though British winters and super dusty Surrey Hills summers. No corrosion, no water ingress issues, zero issues with the electrics or connections, battery faultless and no problems at all from the conditions it was ridden in. The reason it failed was the stresses being put through it, especially lateral force though the BB, which started to cause play in the axle, and caused the internal torque sensor to stop working.

What’s my point? Well all of the motors will develop a problem if you ride them hard, especially if you are lax on looking after them, we are still using motors derived from commuter bike motors which are not out under anything like the amount of force as an EMTB motor - I have E- Biles in the family running older Bosch motors with 5k plus miles on them that have never missed a beat, but get peddle gently round and are never put under any sort of stress.

however there is no excuse for crappy connections and poor wiring causing you to miss a days riding, and one thing Shimano have is a quality ecosystem of interchangeable parts that allow you to customise you interaction with the sytem, are well made and probably the most bulletproof of the current crop of systems. As a package it’s still the best put together system out there, and I would expect their new motors etc coming out this year to be even better.

I lost count of the number of times friends with Levos have cut rides short or had to miss a ride becuase of an issue with the bike, and most of the time it’s nothing to do with the motor, but some crappy connection meaning the bike won’t turn on.

I would rather just have a motor to worry about rather than a whole load of parts that could go wrong.

 

[jooles]

I understand different experiences from different folk howeveythete are still some howlers on the E8000:

Non gasket offside cover that lets crud into all the power/torque sensors

A BB going and scrap the motor?

Brose/Bosch can be pulled apart and repaired a Shimano cannot.

And I've heard of as many Shimano going as brose.

Anyway seems we have different experiences. I'm in South Wales rock smashing crud which is hard on any components.

I'd just like simple issues such as bearing failure to be repairable.

Appreciate all comments. All taken in good faith. All valid ...

 

[jooles]

I think...also Brose and Bosh have a rolling warranty which makes a huge difference...

Tell me if I'm wrong on that one

 

[R120]

No if you get a new Shimano motor it comes with a new 2 year warranty. From my experience Shimano and Bosch are about the same in terms of warrantied motors that we hear about on here.

The Brose units are sealed and cant be repaired by a shop without invalidating the warranty - not sure about Bosch, but from an "official" point of view it seems that all the major brads replace rather than repair motors, though there are third party places that will repair and out of warranty motor if its possible.

 

[Fivetones]

Some facts:

- There’s no rolling warranty on the Brose.
- Brose is no more or less repairable than the E8000.
- I’m not saying E8000 is perfect either but they both have issues
- The seal situation is terrible on the Brose too for example.

Don’t get me wrong though all manufacturers have a long way to go. This is still bleeding edge technology. You need to be able to write money off in this early adopter stage. Not everyone can stomach that (as OP indicates).

 

[R120]

I actually think its pretty impressive what the motors can handle, when you think about the conditions they get ridden in and the abuse they get on an EMTB - considering we are effectively only a few years on from ground zero of EMTB's that actually can be considered proper MTB's we have it pretty good, we are still very early, in fact really at the birth of the EMTB right now and development is moving fast, but as with genesis of anything there are some good ideas and some bad.

Remember most of the motor designs have their origins in truck windscreen wiper motors!

 

[Zero]

Some facts:

- There’s no rolling warranty on the Brose.
- Brose is no more or less repairable than the E8000.
- I’m not saying E8000 is perfect either but they both have issues
- The seal situation is terrible on the Brose too for example.

Don’t get me wrong though all manufacturers have a long way to go. This is still bleeding edge technology. You need to be able to write money off in this early adapter stage. Not everyone can stomach that (as OP indicates).

That is offset by new motors even after expiry of warranty FOC. Then a reduced price of replacement motors. Someone said £250 in year 3. But have not checked validity of that claim.

Also bearing man seems to be able to repair them to some degreed unless I'm mistaken.

Right now shimano cannot get its act together when the battery isn't also shimano. I also have less faith that some of these brands are not geared up to replacing motors in a reasonable time.

Berkshire even said that the service out of orbea is terrible.

Good news is that its only going to get better moving forward. Analogue bikes are going extinct. This is the future.

 

[jooles]

Agree with all above.

Infancy creates issues however there needs to be an iterative approach to design, service and support. That way development occurs.

I'm sure simply bearings can replace Bosch bits maybe also Brose ?

Bosch actually seem top at the moment for overall design and support ? Subjective.

Anyway it's all good food for thought. Love my Ebike and what it does for me and riding...apart from it attacking my face after an OTB last night when I thought I could drop off a rock rather than poping it. You realise how much momentum they have !

I'm sticking with my old mullet Ranger for as long as I can Shimano warranty up in 6 months and I'd even consider trying to get another motor if it went bang after that.

Cheers.

 

[jooles]

...pity we can't all hit the trails together on our mixed motor bikes and banter the hell out of this in good faith and taste ;-)

 

[Frankieboy]

Good luck getting that from bosch or shimano.

I think that depends on lbs. I have 2 Bosch motors replaced under warranty, both turned around promtly.

 

[electricbogaloo]

Yeah it depends heavily on the country and dealer.

 

[jooles]

Good news is that its only going to get better moving forward. Analogue bikes are going extinct. This is the future.

If traditional MTB are due to go extinct this puts even more onus on manufacturers to provide units that are serviceable like a motorbike, car, normal ebike etc. I won't rely on just an ebike until the service aspect improves

 

[Fivetones]

Traditional bikes will not become extinct. EMTB and lots of other electric augmented transport are going to be pretty huge though in a few years compared to now.

Wouldn’t it be nice if a motor or battery replacement was just like any other groupset replaceable item? If it was £400 for a motor, post warranty period, it would certainly make things easier and make bikes last longer. As it is EMTB is a very environmentally unsustainable product.

 

[Zero]

Shimano need their new motor for next year because with the Brose and new update on Bosch they are clearly behind now.

 

[nickfrog]

What’s my point? Well all of the motors will develop a problem if you ride them hard, especially if you are lax on looking after them

What can I do in terms of looking after my E8000 to mitigate the risk of failure ?

 

[R120]

Don’t jet wash it, and check behind the cover on the LHS periodically or after very wet rides to check no crap has accumulated in there.

take of the cranks periodically and chainring if you can to clean behind there.

apart from that it tends to get a bit bike specific, e.g on my Vitus I have motofoam above the motor between the frame and the motor to stop crab getting though the cable holes in the frame, but that’s a Viuts specific issue.

I think keeping a well maintained drivetrain is critical on any EMTB as if you don’t look after it it will out

 

[electricbogaloo]

Is there a way to remove the chainring/chainguide without the shimano specific tool?

 

[R120]

You can try and bodge it with some grips. There are 3rd party options such as Park Tool too

 

[RickBullotta]

Is there a way to remove the chainring/chainguide without the shimano specific tool?

It's a ton easier with the tool, but you can use a pipe wrench or plumbing pliers and a lot of cursing and patience. Remember that it's reverse threaded!