Yotaismygame
New Member
Exactly what I was thinking. What's stopping DJI from dropping "tunes" for any Avinox powered bike.
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2027 Orbea Wild LT Released - Avinox Powered
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
A technical bit about the RS Tune 750W peak and 130Nm, how does that work out. I think someone asked about this. There is a simple formula that we can use...
Power (W) = Torque (Nm) × RPM / 9,549
What is 9,549?
The number 9.549 is a mathematical constant (conversion factor) that connects rotational speed in minutes (RPM) with angular velocity in radians per second (rad/s). It is used so that torque and power can be calculated directly from revolutions per minute (RPM), which are the most practical in engineering.
If we take the peak power number 750W and peak 130Nm and throw that into the formula we get 55 RPM.
RPM = 750W x 9,549 / 130Nm = 55
That tells us that with the RS tune the motor is capable of delivering 130Nm already at 55 RPM.
The maximum current draw here is at cca 21 Amps.
But being capped at 750W peak that also means that increasing the RPM automatically reduces the torque.
Below is a chart what is to be expected at different RPM(cadence). Of course you don't always reach peak power, that happens momentarily, depends on the terrain and gear you are using at each moment. So during the ride the motor torque varies between the max 130Nm and cca 60Nm. The torque you get on the back wheel of course depends heavily on your gearing.
With the same formula we can calculate the difference between 750W peak or 1300W peak, it's pretty interesting.
So the RS Tune should in theory reduce battery consumption to a degree but it will probably also feel less powerful at higher cadences.
Hope this clears things a bit about the performance difference of peak power numbers, and why the Avinox feels so powerful on the trails.
Power (W) = Torque (Nm) × RPM / 9,549
What is 9,549?
The number 9.549 is a mathematical constant (conversion factor) that connects rotational speed in minutes (RPM) with angular velocity in radians per second (rad/s). It is used so that torque and power can be calculated directly from revolutions per minute (RPM), which are the most practical in engineering.
If we take the peak power number 750W and peak 130Nm and throw that into the formula we get 55 RPM.
RPM = 750W x 9,549 / 130Nm = 55
That tells us that with the RS tune the motor is capable of delivering 130Nm already at 55 RPM.
The maximum current draw here is at cca 21 Amps.
But being capped at 750W peak that also means that increasing the RPM automatically reduces the torque.
Below is a chart what is to be expected at different RPM(cadence). Of course you don't always reach peak power, that happens momentarily, depends on the terrain and gear you are using at each moment. So during the ride the motor torque varies between the max 130Nm and cca 60Nm. The torque you get on the back wheel of course depends heavily on your gearing.
With the same formula we can calculate the difference between 750W peak or 1300W peak, it's pretty interesting.
So the RS Tune should in theory reduce battery consumption to a degree but it will probably also feel less powerful at higher cadences.
Hope this clears things a bit about the performance difference of peak power numbers, and why the Avinox feels so powerful on the trails.
Yotaismygame
New Member
So I was right about power dropping off?
Well yes it's physics and math, can't cheat your way out of that.
Now if they managed to create a motor feel with their tune that hides the drop-off to a degree for the rider, that I don't know. I guess the reviewers and happy new users can report.
Yotaismygame
New Member
What's funny is my last ebike had a Shimano Steps e7000. Which is not a popular older motor. Supposedly rated at 60Nm/500. Which it felt more powerful than that. I never had complaints about the power. The Tune on that motor was very upfront but clearly dropped off as you got going. Which I did not mind at all. I've been working on the M2S to have a somewhat similar feeling tune. Power up front but ease off...
I'm not buying what you're selling, but if it works for you, great.
What's weird to me is you agree a shorter wheelbase is preferable here, but then seem to imply the longer wheelbase is preferable. To be clear-I'm not saying the Wild's long wheelbase makes it unusable; I'm saying it's not-preferable in those tight situations; and makes riding them more difficult. Even your proposed approach of sliding around and nose picking turns is obviously more complex and demanding.
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Your screen name is powerslider !
I feel like I should be preaching to the choir
.Plan is to visit phoenix at some point this winter, lets go ride some kitty litter and you can laugh at me getting hung up on every corner.
It's not clear what models utilize the alloy frame. Orbea's site has incomplete info on the low-end trims.
The e-dread comes with a "custom" tune. It just tweaks to the baseline auto setting.
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Is the new Wild’s “QuickStart” option in the power-limited RS mode really anything special? The standard Avinox M2S already offers six tuning options for all power assist levels (Eco, Trail, Turbo, Auto, Custom). The options include max torque, max power, max acceleration, motor overrun, Assisted Start, and continued assist. The screenshot below shows some settings I use in the Auto mode on my Pivot Amp’d. In the quickest of 5 Assisted Start settings it’s not at all “gradual”. Has Orbea somehow accessed something special that Avinox chose not to, or is “QuickStart” just the standard Assisted Start made available in the power-limited RS mode?
Edit: OK, here’s what Dario over on Pinkbike had to say:
“Those tuning parameters, for those curious: Pedal angle, 5x more sensitive. Pedal torque, 2x more sensitive. Pedal speed, 3x more sensitive. Assist start curve, 3.2x faster yield versus stock. All those increases might sound daunting, until you learn that the peak power has been reigned in to 750W at peak output.”
Interesting stuff, but I’m not sure what level of “stock” Assisted Start is being used as a point of reference.
Dario also quotes this from Orbea:
“Users will be able to customize assistance modes through the Avinox app without losing the performance benefits of the RS firmware and if they choose they could add a mode with full power.”
Only one full power mode? That’s disappointing.
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I’m not reading that as having only one full power mode available. My understanding is any/all user-created modes can be full power.
TheKaiser
Active member
Hi Rob, on a similar note, do you know if all 800wh Avinox bikes (with internal battery) are able to have a 600wh swapped in, or does it require a different set of fittings? I know the new removable 800/600wh batteries have been designed to fit in the same space, but the internal 600 is so much shorter that I've been having trouble imagining how it can be mounted to the same fittings as the internal 800, however I have seen reference to some of the original Amflow bikes being (theoretically) available with a 600wh fitted stock, so clearly there is some ability to swap, but wasn't sure if that was due to Amflow integrating a second fitting that is perhaps not used by other brands.
lol, tens of pages of whining about a limit, all for nothing
I believe you and everyone else owe a thank you to we “whiners.”
We now know Orbea was indeed intending to limit the Wild to 750W. The decision to abandon this plan was seemingly so recent YouTube reviews dropped today speaking to the original plan as reality.
Did the “whining” help avoid the suicidal plan to limit the Wild to 750W? You know it! I’m sure sales reps, and bike shop owners across the globe were “whining” to Orbea leadership about the negative impact of such a decision.
If today Orbea dropped a 750W Avinox M2S, there would’ve been massive flames being shot at Orbea. Instead of Orbea being seen as having the less-than M2S; now they look to many like they have the best M2S available.
Appears exactly the opposite of “for nothing.” You’re welcome.
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Singletrackmind
Well-known member
You lost me at "there is a simple formula"A technical bit about the RS Tune 750W peak and 130Nm, how does that work out. I think someone asked about this. There is a simple formula that we can use...
Power (W) = Torque (Nm) × RPM / 9,549
What is 9,549?
The number 9.549 is a mathematical constant (conversion factor) that connects rotational speed in minutes (RPM) with angular velocity in radians per second (rad/s). It is used so that torque and power can be calculated directly from revolutions per minute (RPM), which are the most practical in engineering.
If we take the peak power number 750W and peak 130Nm and throw that into the formula we get 55 RPM.
RPM = 750W x 9,549 / 130Nm = 55
That tells us that with the RS tune the motor is capable of delivering 130Nm already at 55 RPM.
The maximum current draw here is at cca 21 Amps.
But being capped at 750W peak that also means that increasing the RPM automatically reduces the torque.
Below is a chart what is to be expected at different RPM(cadence). Of course you don't always reach peak power, that happens momentarily, depends on the terrain and gear you are using at each moment. So during the ride the motor torque varies between the max 130Nm and cca 60Nm. The torque you get on the back wheel of course depends heavily on your gearing.
View attachment 186937
With the same formula we can calculate the difference between 750W peak or 1300W peak, it's pretty interesting.
View attachment 186939
So the RS Tune should in theory reduce battery consumption to a degree but it will probably also feel less powerful at higher cadences.
Hope this clears things a bit about the performance difference of peak power numbers, and why the Avinox feels so powerful on the trails.
Looks a great bike. But there are some deal breakers. Here are my Pro's and Con's.
Pros.
1) Integrated control System
2) Avinox System with 800Wh battery and 1300Watts peak.
3) Great looking profile. Just a great looking bike.
Cons
1) That integrated control system would be difficult for maintenance and fault finding.
2) Mulleting requires a change of linkage.
3) Chainstay not adjustable.
4) That RS system means you'll have to go to Orbea for motor upgrades.
5) Slow dropper.
This would be a great bike for someone who always goes to his LBS for work done on the bike. But for the tinkerer, I think there are better Avinox Enduros. Forbidden, Crestine, Mondraker and Teewing, just to name a few.
Regarding peak power. I think this is the death nail for Bosch and their 750 peak watts campaign. No body wants your limit. So either make a decent EMTB motor, or get out of the way.
Pros.
1) Integrated control System
2) Avinox System with 800Wh battery and 1300Watts peak.
3) Great looking profile. Just a great looking bike.
Cons
1) That integrated control system would be difficult for maintenance and fault finding.
2) Mulleting requires a change of linkage.
3) Chainstay not adjustable.
4) That RS system means you'll have to go to Orbea for motor upgrades.
5) Slow dropper.
This would be a great bike for someone who always goes to his LBS for work done on the bike. But for the tinkerer, I think there are better Avinox Enduros. Forbidden, Crestine, Mondraker and Teewing, just to name a few.
Regarding peak power. I think this is the death nail for Bosch and their 750 peak watts campaign. No body wants your limit. So either make a decent EMTB motor, or get out of the way.
killjoyken
Member
As far as your cons go (comparing to the Teewing Flux that I was considering), the linkage change and non adjustable chainstays aren't great, but hardly deal breakers.
The Flux has a big chainstay change between 29er and MX. I prefer 29er and the chainstays are long enough for me on a large. While it's not ideal to have to buy a new linkage to change wheel sizes, at least it's an option unlike the Levo, Dreadnought, etc.
As for the RS, integration, and dropper I plan to get the M10 or M20 and skip it all. The biggest plus for me over the Flux is the ability to run a long dropper. I'm sick of being limited to a 185mm post on a large.
Myo lets you select wheel configuration. I have to assume Orbea dealers can order/stock/sell both wheel configs too.
I'm planning to walk into my local Orbea dealer for info on Myo ship dates; and confirmation that the RS M2S motor doesn't have Class 3 capability locked out.
slickrock
Well-known member
@roberides
Did Orbea share any kinematic graphs? While there's talk of reduced anti-squat and neutral anti-rise, I'd like to see how it works over travel range and kickback numbers for the concentric pivot.
killjoyken
Member
Yeah, I'm planning to get the 29er but it's easy enough to just buy a link later if I want to try MX.
I called my Orbea dealer today to ask about availability and they said they'd call me back. I'm hoping they'll be in stock soon. I bought my Avinox from them shortly after they were available in the US.
strange isnt it... I do believe that there has been too much of.... something... going on... rather than reporting on how all the motor systems actually work. They have been afraid, for what reason i dont understand... or maybe no one actually understood and didn't have the experience and needed myself and or a bike company to explain it to them...
As I have said numerous times, all the engineers understood exactly what I have been saying.
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deanFBM
Member
Can you sack off the rs remote and just use the avinox wireless?
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
if you never want to change your saddle height
Hopefully you'll get your bike soon and be able to compare the stock M2S tune against the RS Tune. I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts after riding both.
I would love to do that, Im working on it!
i will give the RS remote a chance.
if it sucks i will buy the Avinox control and go for a Sram AXS post.
If someone has a XL Frame... are the 140mm steertube with or without bearing cups ?
I'd love to use the Fork of my old Wild, but the Fork is limited to 145mm stack height including headset and spacer.
I totally get the power fix. But... A rather broad stroke of the brush, I must say. For exploration distance and ultimate altitude options, huge power makes for an unexpected overnight stay in the backcountry when the battery leaves you high and dry. My power maps are very efficient and yet to need more. So count this rider as an exception.
If it works it will be a very tight fit.
i will print a cover myself, but i think it will not work by some mm
I’m feeling it’s odd that no review I found is saying a word about if Orbea’s tune uniquely locks out Avinox’s Class 3 capability. That absolutely would be worthy of mention guys! I think a reviewer keeping quiet about such a thing makes me question their motives. I even directly asked @Rob Rides EMTB, who must know; and crickets. It’s like people are afraid of saying something critical.
I just hope I’m just being overly cautious and the RS tune isn’t going to be a disappointment. I want it to be awesome.
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