🔋 Semi-Solid-State batteries revolution!

Do you think it possible that solid of semi state batteries would be compatible with current motors?
I think there’s a good chance we’ll see at least one motor manufacturer this year offering a semi-solid-state battery as an option, while keeping compatibility with existing motor platforms. From the motor’s point of view, it mainly “cares” about voltage, current limits, communication, and BMS behavior, not the internal cell chemistry itself.

What makes this especially interesting is UT’s position. UT has been an official Bosch eBike Systems distributor since 2015, supplying Bosch motors and drive systems to small and mid-size bike manufacturers, plus providing hands-on support for system integration and new model development. That kind of close ecosystem knowledge lowers the barrier a lot when it comes to introducing new battery tech in a controlled, compatible way.

So yes, I think compatibility with current motors is absolutely possible, especially as an approved or semi-official option, not a random aftermarket solution.

2026 will likely bring a few surprises. It won’t be cheap or mainstream at first, but we’re probably closer than many think.
 
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Actually, we're talking about up to 500-700lbs difference between an ICE and EV the same size. For example a 2022 Opel Corsa-e has a curb weight of 1530kg and Ice powered version has 1262kg. That weight difference would have an impact of handling/braking.
Yes, that much extra weight would impact handling and braking. But I've never heard of a Opel Corsa-e, it sounds like an ICE car that's been converted to EV. That comes with a weight penalty. Tesla designs EVs from the ground up and uses the battery as a structural component of the chassis, bringing the weight very close to an ICE car with similar roominess and performance. When you compare the weight of a Tesla Model 3 with a slower, smaller BMW M3, the difference is minimal. And the Model 3 gives you more interior space and luggage space.

These new Verge E-motorcycles with solid state batteries prove my point about solid state batteries not being ready to compete with mass-market lithium-ion batteries that are already widely available in high-volume and well-understood. The Verge Ultra says it "starts" at $44,900! That is only going to sell to the technologically curious and in very low volumes. It won't put a dent in the market.

Mass adoption of solid state batteries is years away because the current lithium-ion batteries already work so well (and are affordable).
 
To be fair Tesla's are nearly devoid of content and built in a simple manner (i.e. megacast) that lowers weight but also lowers repairability substantially, which also has an environmental cost. This has also lead to very high insurance costs in some cases, in fact the CT is all but uninsurable at normal rates. If they had a similarly optioned ICE, then you could compare weights.

But instead, we have many other manufacturers with devoted EV's and we see consistently that their EV offerings weigh about 20% more than equivalent ICE offerings.

This additional weight comes with a high pollution cost in PM from tires that last 15K miles and a safety cost for pedestrians, motorcyclists & other road users.

So, I applaud the EU's stance on reducing the weight of all vehicles. Something that would never occur in the USA.

Also, who the f*ck still buys a Telsa?! They are not even in the top 15 auto sellers in the world and are falling fast. BYD sells more EV's than them and doesn't even have access to the world's largest economy, the USA.
 
Fascinating technology
I'm surprised my social media timelines are not full of this today.
400 w/h per KG? That could mean a 1000 w/h battery, under 3kg in a case.

Because it's all advertising with no substance.
 
That's incorrect. Tesla is still manufacturing the 4680 format while actively developing cheaper, more advanced manufacturing techniques to further increase production volumes. The story cited is designed to be an anti-Tesla hit piece. While the facts cited are accurate, the conclusions are not. Tesla maintains robust supply chains by having alternate suppliers. The fact that the Cybertruck has been selling in below anticipated volumes is the most likely reason this supplier was largely cancelled. Another potential reason is a design change in the next generation of 4680 batteries.

There are at least two other major battery manufacturers also producing cells in the 4680 format. That means the format is not going away in the next two or three decades. That said, I think the 2170 cell makes more sense for Ebikes (because they don't have liquid-based thermal management systems and the smaller cells are easier to thermally regulate naturally).

Physical size/weight and packaging is the main reason 4680's don't work for e bikes, without a shift to a lower voltage motor/controller, which isn't optimal. Thermal management is pretty irrelevant on e-bikes, they're very low demand applications.
 
Physical size/weight and packaging is the main reason 4680's don't work for e bikes, without a shift to a lower voltage motor/controller, which isn't optimal. Thermal management is pretty irrelevant on e-bikes, they're very low demand applications.
the first one were like 100wh per battery, they are 80mm high. due to their width you can’t have two next to each other so you‘d need to have one long roundish battery. realistically you could fit in 5-6 batteries in a downtube. what’s the current capacity of newer cells?
 
Yes, that much extra weight would impact handling and braking. But I've never heard of a Opel Corsa-e, it sounds like an ICE car that's been converted to EV. That comes with a weight penalty. Tesla designs EVs from the ground up and uses the battery as a structural component of the chassis, bringing the weight very close to an ICE car with similar roominess and performance. When you compare the weight of a Tesla Model 3 with a slower, smaller BMW M3, the difference is minimal. And the Model 3 gives you more interior space and luggage space.

These new Verge E-motorcycles with solid state batteries prove my point about solid state batteries not being ready to compete with mass-market lithium-ion batteries that are already widely available in high-volume and well-understood. The Verge Ultra says it "starts" at $44,900! That is only going to sell to the technologically curious and in very low volumes. It won't put a dent in the market.

Mass adoption of solid state batteries is years away because the current lithium-ion batteries already work so well (and are affordable).
You will see the forefront of accumulator tech in small scale specialty aviation first before anything else.
 
the first one were like 100wh per battery, they are 80mm high. due to their width you can’t have two next to each other so you‘d need to have one long roundish battery. realistically you could fit in 5-6 batteries in a downtube. what’s the current capacity of newer cells?
Capacity isn't the issue, it's voltage per cell.
You need too many cells, resulting in a heavy pack.
 
I hope that we see SS batteries soon on our e-bikes, retrofittable to current motors, and I had also assumed that were right around the corner, 2026 or 2027 at the latest since mass produced Semi-solid state/ solid state batteries are in fact hitting production right now.

Troyden (of Crestline) talked about the importance of this bit of tech a bit in a recent podcast. I think some of the current motors really represent the pinnacle of motor design leaving not much improvement to be had in the near future, so it's all up to the batteries at this point.

That said, on VitalMTB there is a thread going where representatives from the major motor manufacturers are asked questions, and for sure they are playing coy and they don't want to tank current product sales, but they universally expressed that battery improvements will continue to be slow and incremental.

So, who knows? I no longer think it'll happen in 2026, however. Maybe closer to 2028.
 
Fascinating technology
I'm surprised my social media timelines are not full of this today.
400 w/h per KG? That could mean a 1000 w/h battery, under 3kg in a case.

No, I don't think it means that because the 400Wh/Kg is the cell-level energy density, not the pack level density.
 
Yes, it is surprising to see the downward trajectory of Tesla, its founder, and the disconnect with performance and stock price. Speaking of weight comparisons with the Tesla, much of the weight savings are due to the spartan and uber minimalist approach to an ultra modern digital trend. Surprisingly removing many items that add quality and safety. The elimination of parts and features like the dashboard, door handles, dash knobs and switches replacing them with a center computer screen interface which can be a safety issue requiring taking eyes off the road. While it does save the manufacturer money, It requires navigating a screen that is to the right of the driver to go through a menu to do simple functions such as wiper speed. Interior materials are modern and minimalist, but some plastics and trim can feel less premium than traditional luxury cars. Also Fit and finish generally feels less classically upscale and cohesive, and not matched to expectations in the luxury segment
 
I hope that we see SS batteries soon on our e-bikes, retrofittable to current motors, and I had also assumed that were right around the corner, 2026 or 2027 at the latest since mass produced Semi-solid state/ solid state batteries are in fact hitting production right now.

Troyden (of Crestline) talked about the importance of this bit of tech a bit in a recent podcast. I think some of the current motors really represent the pinnacle of motor design leaving not much improvement to be had in the near future, so it's all up to the batteries at this point.

That said, on VitalMTB there is a thread going where representatives from the major motor manufacturers are asked questions, and for sure they are playing coy and they don't want to tank current product sales, but they universally expressed that battery improvements will continue to be slow and incremental.

So, who knows? I no longer think it'll happen in 2026, however. Maybe closer to 2028.
Perhaps I'm jaded, but we have heard "2 years", every year, for the last 15 years.
Manufacturers of e-bikes are not exactly on the cutting edge, they will be subject to trickle down technologies, you will see any advances other places before it hits e-bikes.
At this point semi solid state and solid state has become a marketing term. The things I see marketed as such are anything but.

I took the opportunity to ask some hard questions on that vital thread to the Fazua rep, the reply did not fill me with confidence.
 
To be fair Tesla's are nearly devoid of content and built in a simple manner (i.e. megacast) that lowers weight but also lowers repairability substantially, which also has an environmental cost. This has also lead to very high insurance costs in some cases, in fact the CT is all but uninsurable at normal rates. If they had a similarly optioned ICE, then you could compare weights.
Incorrect. I have a Cybertruck and it insures like any other vehicle in a similar price range, less in many cases due to it's superior safety. It sounds like you are gullible enough to believe the fake media hit pieces designed to protect legacy auto interests.

The front and rear castings have bolt-on replacement parts available inexpensively from Tesla that actually increase the repairability in minor collisions compared to traditional stamped unibody construction. Again, you have fallen victim to the multi-prong fake news strategy to turn people away from buying a Tesla. The truth is the exact opposite of what you have heard.

But instead, we have many other manufacturers with devoted EV's and we see consistently that their EV offerings weigh about 20% more than equivalent ICE offerings.

Mostly true, this is why Tesla can offer so much more value to the new car buyer than every other EV brand (who sell EVs at a loss just to get the price low enough to sell them). They are inferior in just about every way, from the thermal management systems to the software that runs it.

This additional weight comes with a high pollution cost in PM from tires that last 15K miles and a safety cost for pedestrians, motorcyclists & other road users.
Haha! Particulate matter is a big nothingburger! All cars make it, EVs actually make less because they don't use friction brakes to stop, they use electromagnetic braking. If you bought into the fake narrative of "EVs emit more particulate matter" you are just too gullible to fake narratives designed to slow EV adoption and protect legacy gasoline car interests.
Also, who the f*ck still buys a Telsa?! They are not even in the top 15 auto sellers in the world and are falling fast. BYD sells more EV's than them and doesn't even have access to the world's largest economy, the USA.

Our family has 4 Tesla and they are the best cars, by far, that we have ever owned! Two of them are going on 8 years old and they never need anything but cabin filters, wiper blades, washer fluid, and tires. They have never broken or refused to start on frigid mornings, they heat up far faster than gas or diesel vehicles (or even many other EVs, for that matter) and they are very value oriented when compared to the competition. The Cybertruck is the best of the bunch (but only if you need a full-sized pickup). It's a big advantage that they have never broken down, failed to start, or needed oil changes and filters.

Due to the value Tesla offers, they have the best selling car in the world, gas or electric, for the last three years in a row. No single car or truck outsells the Tesla Model Y. Again, I think you have bought into the fake doom and gloom spread by the mainstream media and the rest of the automotive industry. It's normal for sales to be cyclic over the years, no car brands sell more each consecutive year, it's cyclic with the consumer economy and consumer trends. But Tesla sales have not declined far enough for the Model Y to lose it's title of the best-selling car in the world.

What's really interesting, is the mainstream media hasn't even told the public that the best-selling car in the world is a pure electric car! How do you explain that?
 
Incorrect. I have a Cybertruck and it insures like any other vehicle in a similar price range, less in many cases due to it's superior safety. It sounds like you are gullible enough to believe the fake media hit pieces designed to protect legacy auto interests.

The front and rear castings have bolt-on replacement parts available inexpensively from Tesla that actually increase the repairability in minor collisions compared to traditional stamped unibody construction. Again, you have fallen victim to the multi-prong fake news strategy to turn people away from buying a Tesla. The truth is the exact opposite of what you have heard.



Mostly true, this is why Tesla can offer so much more value to the new car buyer than every other EV brand (who sells EVs at a loss just to get the price low enough to sell them). They are inferior in just about every way, from the thermal management systems to the software that runs it.


Haha! Particulate matter is a big nothingburger! All cars make it, EVs actually make less because they don't use friction brakes to stop, they use electromagnetic braking. If you bought into the fake narrative of "EVs emit more particulate matter" you are just too gullible to fake narratives designed to slow EV adoption and protect legacy gasoline car interests.


Our family has 4 Tesla and they are the best cars, by far, that we have ever owned! Two of them are going on 8 years old and they never need anything but cabin filters, wiper blades, washer fluid, and tires. They have never broken or refused to start on frigid mornings, they heat up far faster than gas or diesel vehicles (or even many other EVs, for that matter) and they are very value oriented when compared to the competition. The Cybertruck is the best of the bunch (but only if you need a full-sized pickup). It's a big advantage that they have never broken down, failed to start, or needed oil changes and filters.

Due to the value Tesla offers, they have the best selling car in the world, gas or electric, for the last three years in a row. No single car or truck outsells the Tesla Model Y. Again, I think you have bought into the fake doom and gloom spread by the mainstream media and the rest of the automotive industry. It's normal for sales to be cyclic over the years, no car brands sell more each consecutive year, it's cyclic with the consumer economy and consumer trends. But Tesla sales have not declined far enough for the Model Y to lose it's title of the best-selling car in the world.

What's really interesting, is the mainstream media hasn't even told the public that the best-selling car in the world is a pure electric car! How do you explain that?

I do think it's best that we get back to the SS battery discussion and how that pertains to e-bikes.

That said, I'm far from ignorant on EV's, quite the opposite actually. No need to call me gullible or imply that I'm a shill for the media. But it's okay that we have different opinions on the topic, even when they are far apart.

~ take care
 
Yes, it is surprising to see the downward trajectory of Tesla, its founder, and the disconnect with performance and stock price.
Tesla stock is majority owned by big financial institutions using stock market professionals. Retail investors own a minor percent of the stock float and thus, any disconnect you perceive between your reality and the stock price is likely caused by a disconnect between your perception of reality and reality itself. Because the share price is determined by supply and demand by people trusted with huge sums of money. Even the retail investors have to have real money on the line to bid up the share price. This is why the betting markets are such a good predictor of what's going to happen, because you need real money on the line to move the needle. People don't like to lose money, so the bets tend to be made by smart people who have a good history with money.

I think TSLA stock is actually underpriced if you have a 5-year investment horizon. This is how you make money in the stock market, not by buying cheap companies with few growth prospects, but by buying companies likely to grow at superior rates. Investment is all about growth over time.

Speaking of weight comparisons with the Tesla, much of the weight savings are due to the spartan and uber minimalist approach to an ultra modern digital trend. Surprisingly removing many items that add quality and safety. The elimination of parts and features like the dashboard, door handles, dash knobs and switches replacing them with a center computer screen interface which can be a safety issue requiring taking eyes off the road. While it does save the manufacturer money, It requires navigating a screen that is to the right of the driver to go through a menu to do simple functions such as wiper speed. Interior materials are modern and minimalist, but some plastics and trim can feel less premium than traditional luxury cars. Also Fit and finish generally feels less classically upscale and cohesive, and not matched to expectations in the luxury segment
The luxury segment is a very small portion of the automotive market. When Tesla went public back in 2010, Elon made it clear the future of the company was in mass-market sales (high volume production). And he was right, the Model Y holding the crown of the best-selling car in the world for three years in a row illustrates just how right Elon was (even though he was widely ridiculed for suggesting they would be selling in high volumes).

If you are into luxury cars you have a number of other alternatives, all made in relatively low volumes. The Model Y blows them all away in sales because it offers so much more value to the typical new car buyer. So does the Model 3 which is a very strong seller, even when compared to most gas powered offerings.

I'm surprised you think Tesla compromised on safety when they reduced the weight and cost of their vehicles. All Tesla cars are repeatedly proven to be the safest cars available, both in crash test ratings and in real-world crash statistics. You are just gullible to fake media narratives. It's sad how gullible some people are. We have real facts available, you don't have to latch onto thinly disguised hit pieces designed to deceive.
 
No need to call me gullible or imply that I'm a shill for the media. But it's okay that we have different opinions on the topic, even when they are far apart.

~ take care

To be clear, I didn't call you a "shill for the media", I suggested you were especially gullible to the false narratives pushed by mainstream media. Big difference.
 
Regarding EV weight and related tire particulate pollution, here's some good stuff to be aware of:

What is 6PPD-quinone?

Saving Washington's salmon from toxic tire dust

Federal court injunction for fish passage

I'm all for making road runoff safer for salmon. I spent a good portion of my working years salmon seining in Washington and Alaska and think the resource should be protected for future generations.

Three points:

1) If the weight of the vehicles is so important to reducing particulates, then I would suggest the solution is to deploy fewer large and very heavy SUVs and pickups and more light passenger vehicles like the Tesla Model 3 and the upcoming Tesla robocab (which is exceedingly light). So many of these large, vehicles only have one person in them (with no cargo).

2) EVs are overall much cleaner for fish bearing streams than gasoline and diesel vehicles. The small difference in tire wear is almost insignificant compared to oil leaks and spills (ever notice how parking lots are an oily mess) and the toxic combustion byproducts that come from exhaust pipes, particularly after cold starts.

3) It's funny how we didn't hear of the problem cars have with tire particulates until EVs threatened gas and oil sales!

See how fake narratives work? People who want to change public perception of EVs start with a tiny truth and turn it into something it's not. Sometimes they just make it up out of thin air. It's all about controlling how you think, how you spend your money. 25% of the American economy is based around the automobile and legacy interests don't want to see that decline. They want you to keep buying large, heavy SUVs, trucks, and all the gas, oil and tires it takes to keep them on the road. It's not about protecting the environment, it's about protecting existing profit streams. People spend a lot of money keeping their gasoline powered cars on the road.
 
I suspect it's the instant torque and easily accessible acceleration with EV's that's primarily responsible for the accelerated tire wear.

I have a 6600# truck with over 600 rwhp/ 600 rwtq (it's modified and runs on E85 among other things) used for towing and I still get 80K miles out of my tires. It's not just the weight.
 
See how fake narratives work? People who want to change public perception of EVs start with a tiny truth and turn it into something it's not. Sometimes they just make it up out of thin air. It's all about controlling how you think, how you spend your money.
I'm not taking a stance on this one, but the connection between EV weights, 6ppd and salmon mortality were brought to my attention via WSDOT.

Rather than conspiracy theories, maybe we should be pushing tire MFGs to replace 6ppd, supposedly there are better alternatives. Solve the issue for all cars, it's not specific to EVs.

WA state has $9b tied up with the federal fish passage injunction.
 
An awful lot of focus here on batteries, which are not the power source for EVs or our bikes! The battery is merely a storage medium, (like the fuel tank in an ICE car). The power source is electricity.
For us in the emtb world that does not provide us with a problem, since we charge our batteries using the same voltage provided to every house in the land.
By far the greatest issue facing the ill fated attempt to use electric motors and lithium batteries in the automotive industry is that virtually no power grid in the world can deliver the higher voltages required to charge those lithium batteries in a reasonable time, where the consumer needs to access it. Be thankful that, contrary to the Govt driven narrative there has been no wholesale adoption of EVs to replace ICE cars. If and when that actual happens in any significant way, our national grids will fail.
.......and that will impact on us EMTB riders!!
 
Fascinating technology
I'm surprised my social media timelines are not full of this today.
400 w/h per KG? That could mean a 1000 w/h battery, under 3kg in a case.
Fascinating indeed.
They don't says anything about the chemistry, but specs are insane to be true:
  • 400 Wh / kg
  • 100.000 cycles (supercaps territory)
  • fast charging in 5 minutes up to 100%
  • 99% capacity retention at -30C or 100C
  • Non-flammable
  • Cheaper than Li-Ion
  • Donut Lab didn’t specify what materials are needed to make the solid-state cells, but it did say that it’s “100% green, made from materials that are found everywhere,” making it immune to geopolitical issues.
It's made from DONUT, baby :cool:

Forgot about EVs, flying robots are coming.

P.S.
Startup was created last year, and back then the hype was with a hub/wheel motor for EVs (mostly e-motorcycles).
 
Fascinating indeed.
They don't says anything about the chemistry, but specs are insane to be true:
  • 400 Wh / kg
  • 100.000 cycles (supercaps territory)
  • fast charging in 5 minutes up to 100%
  • 99% capacity retention at -30C or 100C
  • Non-flammable
  • Cheaper than Li-Ion
  • Donut Lab didn’t specify what materials are needed to make the solid-state cells, but it did say that it’s “100% green, made from materials that are found everywhere,” making it immune to geopolitical issues.
It's made from DONUT, baby :cool:

Forgot about EVs, flying robots are coming.

P.S.
Startup was created last year, and back then the hype was with a hub/wheel motor for EVs (mostly e-motorcycles).

Yah...I don't buy it.

Sounds like the grifter recipe for driving up the stock price.
 
An awful lot of focus here on batteries, which are not the power source for EVs or our bikes! The battery is merely a storage medium, (like the fuel tank in an ICE car). The power source is electricity.
For us in the emtb world that does not provide us with a problem, since we charge our batteries using the same voltage provided to every house in the land.
By far the greatest issue facing the ill fated attempt to use electric motors and lithium batteries in the automotive industry is that virtually no power grid in the world can deliver the higher voltages required to charge those lithium batteries in a reasonable time, where the consumer needs to access it. Be thankful that, contrary to the Govt driven narrative there has been no wholesale adoption of EVs to replace ICE cars. If and when that actual happens in any significant way, our national grids will fail.
.......and that will impact on us EMTB riders!!
thankfully your dino juice production is void of any need for electricity, right? get informed…

Producing one gallon of gasoline requires a significant energy input, with estimates for the electricity component in refining around 4 to 7 kilowatt-hours (kWh), though much of the refinery's total energy comes from burning fuel, not just electricity. Overall, the energy needed to extract, transport, and refine crude into a gallon of gasoline (including all energy forms) is substantial, often compared to the 33.7 kWh of energy contained in the gallon itself, highlighting the inefficiency of the process.
 
Yah...I don't buy it.

Sounds like the grifter recipe for driving up the stock price.
I’m with Suns on this one. The Donut Labs specs are suspiciously too good — made with Unobtanium? If they’re indeed real, expect imminent surgical strikes on Donut HQ by the US military — at the behest of oil companies.
 
They're a privately owned Finnish company with no traded stock, all of which is one search away. Dear lord above, will no one save us from incurious, opinionated Americans?
 
Sorry, but you have missed the point completely. I was pointing out that whatever power source is used......fuel or electricity, it has to be delivered to millions of consumer points of consumption. All national electricity grids are built on a cascade system of transformers to achieve that for both industrial and domestic use. The entire grid requires physical wired connection from power station to end user, and has to be regulated dynamically. It is the necessary changes to that grid if and when there is any significant EV uptake that will take years to achieve and cost millions...if not billions to achieve.
So my point is not about the relative cost to produce the power source but rather the cost to deliver it where needed.
thankfully your dino juice production is void of any need for electricity, right? get informed…
 
They're a privately owned Finnish company with no traded stock, all of which is one search away. Dear lord above, will no one save us from incurious, opinionated Americans?

That doesn't mean nearly what you think it does.
First the point remains, that it's unlikely that this little Finnish company has created something so phenomenal across all desired attributes in their privately funded lab.
Secondly companies do this thing, it's called 'going public'. This happens all of the time and with promises that make the founders wealthy but rarely meet expectations.
I'd like you to meet Quantum-scape, currently sitting at about 20% of what I paid years ago when they 'solved' solid state batteries.
Sure, it's just an opinion of what likely is occurring; but I'm not naive and I've seen this before.
Ever heard the statement that if it's too good to be true, it probably is?
Hey, I hope that I'm wrong and they did it, metaphorically landed on the moon with limited resources. But I'm also a realist.
 
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Sorry, but you have missed the point completely. I was pointing out that whatever power source is used......fuel or electricity, it has to be delivered to millions of consumer points of consumption. All national electricity grids are built on a cascade system of transformers to achieve that for both industrial and domestic use. The entire grid requires physical wired connection from power station to end user, and has to be regulated dynamically. It is the necessary changes to that grid if and when there is any significant EV uptake that will take years to achieve and cost millions...if not billions to achieve.
So my point is not about the relative cost to produce the power source but rather the cost to deliver it where needed.

This is National Grids own assessment;


Will it require investment? Of course, but our grid needs updating anyway, and the move to EVs is a transition over decades anyway, not an overnight switch on.

The infrastructure didn’t exist for petrol cars back in the day either, but it grew. Same for mobile phone networks, where were they at 20 years ago?

Electricity demand had peaked quite a while ago, as NGs own assessment shows, although I expect there will be some local issues that require upgrades, one of the reasons all home charger installs need to be notified to DNOs so they can prioritise any work required.
 
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