Do 12 speeds still make sense for full powered EMTB's?

[billium]

SRAM seems to be sticking with only 12 speeds for their MTB Transmissions - why?
Sure, roadies want more gears to maximize human performance but with higher power motors today I see no benefit and several downsides to 12 speed.


Downsides vs 11 speed

• Thinner chain with less bearing area so will wear out faster
• Thinner cogs with less bearing area so will wear out faster
• more expensive cassette

Upside

• more gears

I have never ever wished I had an extra gear on my 11 speed Whyte E160!
Can anyone truly say they can tell and want slightly closer gear ratios given the downsides?

 

[Ndanger]

SRAM seems to be sticking with only 12 speeds for their MTB Transmissions - why?
Sure, roadies want more gears to maximize human performance but with higher power motors today I see no benefit and several downsides to 12 speed.


Downsides vs 11 speed

• Thinner chain with less bearing area so will wear out faster
• Thinner cogs with less bearing area so will wear out faster
• more expensive cassette

Upside

• more gears

I have never ever wished I had an extra gear on my 11 speed Whyte E160!
Can anyone truly say they can tell and want slightly closer gear ratios given the downsides?

RideShimano and loving the even dozen. the number represents harmony, balance and the cycle of time. More specifically, Yin and Yang because it multiplies 2 (the Yang principle) by 6 (the Yin principle), representing a perfect cosmic balance. It's also the reason chain links are never odd numbers .

 

[Nomadic Dad]

Shimano 11 speed linkglide costs me at least 1/3 of the price to run on my Kenevo compared to any of the SRAM T type transmissions which are usually spec'd on the Avinonox bikes and works great. The Orbea Wild is one of the first Avinox bikes I've seen that has the Shimano wired groupset instead making it potentially £100s per year cheaper to run.

 

[zakflip]

SRAM seems to be sticking with only 12 speeds for their MTB Transmissions - why?
Sure, roadies want more gears to maximize human performance but with higher power motors today I see no benefit and several downsides to 12 speed.


Downsides vs 11 speed

• Thinner chain with less bearing area so will wear out faster
• Thinner cogs with less bearing area so will wear out faster
• more expensive cassette

Upside

• more gears

I have never ever wished I had an extra gear on my 11 speed Whyte E160!
Can anyone truly say they can tell and want slightly closer gear ratios given the downsides?

I think with the Avinox motor, half my cassette isn't used.

Maybe SRAM should do something with this groupset for E-bikes?

 

[RustyMTB]

The width difference between an 11 & 12 speed chain is about 0.3mm tops, it's not really a downside in any meaningful way.

 

[MeatBike]

I'd be happy with 10spd to be honest.

When my 12spd XT/SLX components wear out I'll definitely be looking into Linkglide.

 

[cozzy]

Don't think its ever made sense, for me and my usage anyway.
10speed linkglide for about 3 years now.
Originally with an 11/48 cassette on specialized but now i have axinox with ALL the power, an 11/43 and could probably get away with the smallest 11/39.
Cassette £25
Derailleur £25
Chain £15 when they are on offer.
Wireless gears? No thanks.

 

[Pentti]

I think with the Avinox motor, half my cassette isn't used.

Maybe SRAM should do something with this groupset for E-bikes?

View attachment 187204

I've fitted this to my Amflow PL, makes a great lightweight, fast XC bike with powershifting when wired direct to bike, can still climb anything except silly steep/technical. Shorter derailleur, T-Type solid mount more tucked into bike, as long as you can keep above walking pace everything is golden. Could be a cheaper GX version in the future?

 

[p3eps]

Full power - probably not.

I'm on a Levo SL, and have a 32T x 12 ' Eagle Transmission drivetrain.
I remember this coming up previously, and 'Gary' asking WTF anyone needed 12 gears on an eMTB for.
When you've only got 50Nm, and generally ride in an Eco 30% setting, I can assure you I need that dinner plate on the back!
I'm frequently climbing 15-20% gradients round Glentanar, Ballater and other Scottish climbs, and sometimes Turbo and gear 1 is a struggle!

On the flip side, my 50Nm motor running in Eco most of the time doesn't eat up chains and drivetrains like I suspect an Avinox would!

 

[xtraman122]

I think 9-10 would be the sweet spot for any full powered bike. The 7sp DH setup is a little sparse on gears for most mixed riding, at least 1 or 2 larger cogs are needed for proper climbing, but something right in the middle of that and the current 12sp options would be ideal. My 52t 1st gear goes entirely unused and they could space out some of the middle gears to gap them a little more appropriately given the power and you're easily down to either 9 or 10 speeds total, giving you a straighter chain line and room to work with beefier cassettes and chains with that extra space while keeping the weight the same as it was before. With the thicker chain and cogs, better chain line, and presumably a more compact derailleur arm it should be significantly more durable and better able to stand up to the abusive torque of the current full fat motors.

 

[zakflip]

I've fitted this to my Amflow PL, makes a great lightweight, fast XC bike with powershifting when wired direct to bike, can still climb anything except silly steep/technical. Shorter derailleur, T-Type solid mount more tucked into bike, as long as you can keep above walking pace everything is golden. Could be a cheaper GX version in the future?

Hopefully in the future we will see something like a GX 7 or 10 speed t-type which is e-bike specific.

 

[Pentti]

Hopefully in the future we will see something like a GX 7 or 10 speed t-type which is e-bike specific.

Problem could be selling new bikes in the shop would look a bit sparse (less attractive) with small cassette and less gears

 

[irie]

I think 9-10 would be the sweet spot for any full powered bike.

This ^^^

With Shimano 10-51 cassette sometimes use the 51t on technical stuff and the 10t when accelerating downhill. But space out the gears in between no probs.

 

[skizzian]

This ^^^

With Shimano 10-51 cassette sometimes use the 51t on technical stuff and the 10t when accelerating downhill. But space out the gears in between no probs.

This ^^^

 

[Vision_Tim]

I feel like we can go down to 6 with these motors

 

[pagheca]

IMHO, it depends on your physical condition.

For me (67 years old, in good health and reasonably fit, but obviously nowhere near the level of a 20-year-old athlete), the biggest gear, or the number of gears, isn't the limiting factor. I can already climb until my eMTB loses traction and the front wheel starts lifting.

So I think a larger gear range can still make sense if you're chasing specific performance goals and have the skills to take advantage of it. For me, however, it would improve performance on paper rather than my actual ability to ride steeper terrain.

 

[billium]

Update:
My assumptions were wrong.
Apparently a 12 speed chain's rollers are not narrower - just the outer links.

So, my list of downsides is reduced to only one; more expensive cassette and perhaps weaker links ( possibly overcome by more material in flat-top).

I still question the wisdom of cramming 12 cogs into a cassette and given the choice of 11 vs 12 speed version of same drivetrain would choose the 11 speed version.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I feel like we can go down to 6 with these motors

Some people have really steep terrain, or they prefer to ride in lower power modes to either extend their ride, ride with slower bikes, or to just have a more 'bike' like feel.

I will say just yesterday I needed my 42tooth to climb some stuff and even had to get off and push 1-2x when I didn't get my downshifts in quick enough, but I don't use the turbo mode. If I end up at a really low cadence I'll stop pedaling and get off, as that just breaks stuff.

I've expressed my opinions on the e-bike drivetrains quite a bit and I'll share my set up once again as I think it's worth considering and we all share around here:

1) SRAM X01 11 speed cassette. About 272 grams and all steel, 10-42.
2) WheelTop electronic groupset bought from Alibaba. I bought the mid-cage length. It was only 46 grams heavier than a mechanical X01 11 derailleur, shifter & cable. So, 472 grams.
3) 12 speed X01 chain, waxed.

You do lose all of the 'smart shift' features as it's not integrated to the motor. I like to stay engaged in the ride and also still ride analog bikes, so this doesn't bother me. I prefer the WheelTop in every way to my old AXS, particularly the ergonomics of the shift pod.

It's pre-programmed for Shimano spacing but can be made to fit any shifting pattern or cassette. I spent considerable brain power getting the shifting dialed so if anyone copies this set up, let me know and I'll pull all of my trim settings from the App and post them.

 

[skizzian]

Update:
My assumptions were wrong.
Apparently a 12 speed chain's rollers are not narrower - just the outer links.

So, my list of downsides is reduced to only one; more expensive cassette and perhaps weaker links ( possibly overcome by more material in flat-top).

I still question the wisdom of cramming 12 cogs into a cassette and given the choice of 11 vs 12 speed version of same drivetrain would choose the 11 speed version.

12 speed cassette rings are thin and therefore weaker
the missus folded over the metal on her lowest (most used rings) Shimano SLX level - so not a bad cassette at all
so less longevity I'd say

 

[Mario Antony]

I switched from Shimano 12speed (51-10 x 36) to Linkglide.
Presently, running 43-11, 10speed, with 34t chainring.
Best of this, is the SG RD, and avoiding smaking the cage on logs and rocks. Increadible the difference of only 7mm can make.
This for most rides up to 40ish kms and 1600m elevation.

If I go for long rides, and less assistance, I just place the 11-48 cassette.

Shimano should definitely make a Microspline Linkglide cassete (if possible using 45-9 & 51-10).

What I don't miss from 12sp?
- dropping 2 or even 3 gears at once
- 51t
- Long RD cage (SGS)

What I miss from 12sp?
- 10t cog!
- fast shifting (but Linkglide it's ok! I'm not racing!)

 

[Ndanger]

Average day i cover more distance and altitude than the battery capacity so I focus on efficiency and utilization of my energy levels. My approach is keeping cadence up and motor loading down, fewer gears would be counter productive for the approach.

 

[Mario Antony]

Average day i cover more distance and altitude than the battery capacity so I focus on efficiency and utilization of my energy levels. My approach is keeping cadence up and motor loading down, fewer gears would be counter productive for the approach.

Yes, for less motor assistance & higher cadence, it makes sense to keep 12spd and smooth transition between cogs (like road bike cassetes)

 

[Yotaismygame]

I've had both 11spd linkglide and 12spd Gx trans on a ebike. As far as gearing goes I can't tell the difference. And the linkglide didn't last any longer. Maybe I was lazy on the chain maintenance? Very heavy cassette for Linkglide XT.

 

[Hob Nob]

Nope, it’s completely not fit for purpose on a high powered ebike, and I’d even argue it’s fairly pointless on the current generation of mid powered bikes.

My full powered bike I run 10spd (XTR/Saint) with an 11-36T cassette & a thick ebike chain. I still don’t need all the gears. The only negative is I’ve lost the auto shift feature on an Avinox, but it wasn’t life changingly good.

I’ve gained lower weight, a fraction of the cost, more suitable (better clearance & reliability).

On my TQ60 bike I’m not sure I’ve ever used the top two gears on the cassette, rendering X0 T-Type also, utterly pointless. It’s hardly like it’s game changing over other high end groupsets

 

[RustyIron]

SRAM seems to be sticking with only 12 speeds for their MTB Transmissions - why?

Can anyone truly say they can tell and want slightly closer gear ratios given the downsides?

NAH, BRAH.

It's true that everything you say has a degree of validity. It was also somewhat true back in the Stone Age when people rode Amish-style bikes.

Years back, why did Amish bike riders move from nine speeds to ten, eleven, and now twelve? It's for the same reason that eMTB riders need twelve speeds today: When riding high level trails and pushing our bodies to the absolute limit, we need to balance our leg muscles, heart rate, and respiration so we don't collapse. Gears that are close together allow us to do that.

Bridle trail dawdlers can get by with five speeds and rim brakes, but some riders require the level of performance that fancy parts allow.

 

[patdam]

SRAM seems to be sticking with only 12 speeds for their MTB Transmissions - why?
Sure, roadies want more gears to maximize human performance but with higher power motors today I see no benefit and several downsides to 12 speed.


Downsides vs 11 speed

• Thinner chain with less bearing area so will wear out faster
• Thinner cogs with less bearing area so will wear out faster
• more expensive cassette

Upside

• more gears

I have never ever wished I had an extra gear on my 11 speed Whyte E160!
Can anyone truly say they can tell and want slightly closer gear ratios given the downsides?

I'm riding on high moutain, only up or down (never flat), i mostly use the 4 biggest sprockets on 11/50. i always use 11V with little plate (32 teeths with 27.5 rear or 30 on 29 if fit). 10V will be enough, but i never founded quality 10V casette (11/50 or 11/48).

 

[zakflip]

Problem could be selling new bikes in the shop would look a bit sparse (less attractive) with small cassette and less gears

The bike industry is well versed at selling new standards, if we have stronger chains & less gears I am sure it would be an angle & decent selling point for brands to grab hold of and run with

12 spd isn't going anywhere anytime soon & neither are e-bikes, however with more torque and power surely an optimised groupset has to land at some point in time.

Interesting take rustyiron, not raced any Amish recently in the low lands of the UK.

 

[steve_sordy]

As long as I got the range, why should I care?
Well, of course fewer gears make a difference. Wasn't it SRAM that answered your call and introduced an 8-speed drivetrain for emtbs? Everything as you said, wider bearing surfaces, lighter (maybe, don't forget the word "thicker"), but deffo not cheaper!! But what were they like? When I was first test riding emtbs, I was testing bikes from the Giant stand at an open day. The most expensive one had the 8-speed drive train. I rode it for 40 mins and I didn't take to it at all. I never seemed to be in the correct gear. I seemed to be constantly shifting up or down one gear. When I returned the bike I mentioned this and the demo guy let me ride a 12-speed. Happiness returned, even though it was a slightly heavier and lower spec bike.

That was in late 2018 and I my regular bike was a, well, a regular bike. Maybe I was being too harsh. Maybe after almost 7 years of riding emtbs, I might think differently about the 8-speed transmission.

If I HAD to have fewer gears, the lowest I'd go for would be 10-speed, but only if I could still have the same gear range as my 12-speed.

 

[Mario Antony]

Nope, it’s completely not fit for purpose on a high powered ebike, and I’d even argue it’s fairly pointless on the current generation of mid powered bikes.

My full powered bike I run 10spd (XTR/Saint) with an 11-36T cassette & a thick ebike chain. I still don’t need all the gears. The only negative is I’ve lost the auto shift feature on an Avinox, but it wasn’t life changingly good.

I’ve gained lower weight, a fraction of the cost, more suitable (better clearance & reliability).

On my TQ60 bike I’m not sure I’ve ever used the top two gears on the cassette, rendering X0 T-Type also, utterly pointless. It’s hardly like it’s game changing over other high end groupsets

Care to share normal elevation/distance and average of your rides?

Sharing mine:
Usually 1500m elevation and around 30ish kms, and doing all @13/14km/h.

 

[Hob Nob]

Care to share normal elevation/distance and average of your rides?

Sharing mine:
Usually 1500m elevation and around 30ish kms, and doing all @13/14km/h.

Rides usually average about 500m of elevation to 10km of distance where I live, average rides are somewhere between 20-30km & somewhere between 1000 & 1500m of elevation.

Average speed is between 17-23kph (depending on bike/effort/mood)