Avinox M2S: 1,500W, 150Nm, and a PR Offensive

[ntm95]

As a larger heavier rider, can I run one in a lower than max power mode and get solid battery range..?



PS ** I love the idea Avinox developed their own wide/phat batteries also... the investment in an improved form factor and I hope energy density seems to have been a good call!

I run mine in eco most of the time, 200 pound rider with gear.
There's no magic, it takes x amount of power to lift an object a certain distance. Most of the motors are pretty comparable for efficiency.
Climbing slower while putting in more of your own energy over time is the only way to "improve" range on any of these systems.

Avinox developing their own cell is a cost saving measure more than anything. There are cells available that would drop right into their existing 600wh/800wh cases that are superior in every regard to the 700wh battery's cells.

 

[Fangs2k]

I know I dont need 1500 watts and 120nm, 600watts and 85nm hauls my phat as up hills fairly nicely... the golden place for Emtb is the ability to make a climb fun .. dont need to shred it but being able to maintain 10-14 KMH uphills is a blast.
I had been thinking 95-100 NM should just about be perfect for almost anyone. I assumed running max power uphills killed battery ridiculously fast at those amazing power levels. Apparently some testing showed they can have less than 30 minutes of run time w/a 160 lb rider up decent grades at full power...that is wild.

If you set the power to 600w/85Nm then you should get the same consumption as any other motor set to the same level, you can throw a blanket over all of the current motors I think regarding efficiency at the same power levels.

And yes, use more power and you’ll use more battery, physics is physics.

You’ll probably find that an Avinox set in Auto mode so it can give you the beans so to speak when you ask for it, but will dial back when you don’t will surprise you.

If you can, get a test ride sorted, play with the settings and see what you think.

 

[Powerslider]

….trail access laws should change to accommodate popular opinion, not the other way around.

EXACTLY. A democracy (or representative republic) would demand that. The federal government (or worse, global bureaucrats) being so involved in my life that they’re regulating how fast and/or powerful my bicycle is, is a sure sign of them being way, way too intrusive.

 

[Ndanger]

Avinox developing their own cell is a cost saving measure more than anything. There are cells available that would drop right into their existing 600wh/800wh cases that are superior in every regard to the 700wh battery's cells.

I have not been able to verify the statement based on the ‘current “ (no pun intended) real-world engineering constraints of e-mountain bike battery design. Treating the Avinox 700Wh battery's new cell design purely as a "cost-saving measure" misses a massive leap in hardware physics.

I am not aware of any cells that can just "drop right in" and beat it” The fundamental issue in the statement is the physical format of the cells. The 600Wh and 800Wh cases use standard 21700 cylindrical lithium-ion cells (the same format Bosch uses in their latest Smart System batteries).

The new 700Wh (FP700) battery is built using the massive, next-generation 50480 cell format (the same giant form factor Tesla pioneered for high-power electric vehicles). Edit: correction, they're built with Ampace 50480 cells

Because a 50480 cell is more than double the diameter of a 21700 cell, they cannot physically "drop into" the internal structuring, battery management system (BMS) trays, or slim profiles meant for a 21700 layout.

2. The 700Wh cells are chemically and structurally superior for performance. If I understand correctly, stating as follows: “off-the-shelf cells are superior in every regard” misses what I understand to be relevant, pure performance standpoint under heavy load, the new 50480 cell formats ability to not overheat and provide high current is what actually unlocks the Avinox M2S motor.

The M2S motor pulls a massive 1,500W peak power. On the 600Wh and 800Wh (21700-based) batteries, the system restricts full "Boost" mode to prevent the cells from overheating and degrading.

Continuous Power: The structural design of the 50480 cell in the 700Wh pack allows for significantly higher continuous discharge currents with dramatically less internal resistance and heat buildup. Because of this thermal headroom, the 700Wh battery is the only pack in the lineup that allows the motor to sustain full peak output continuously without hitting a thermal throttle.

Energy Density vs. Total Capacity. While the 800Wh pack has more total capacity (more total juice in the tank), the 700Wh pack actually has a higher energy density (220 Wh/kg) compared to the 800Wh pack (214 Wh/kg).

By using the larger cell format, Avinox eliminated a massive amount of dead weight inside the pack—fewer individual cell casings, less internal wiring, and fewer weld points. This allowed them to shave off significant weight, keeping bikes like the Amflow PX under the critical 20kg threshold while delivering unprecedented power.

Summary Checklist of the Reality

Is it a drop-in swap? No. The physical cell diameters are entirely different (46mm vs 21mm).

Are standard cells superior? No. Standard 21700 cells cannot handle the continuous amp draw required for the 1,500W peak output without overheating, which is why the 800Wh pack is software-limited to 60-second bursts.

Was it just for cost-saving? No. It was an engineering requirement to maximize the power-to-weight ratio and thermal performance of a full-power e-MTB.

 

[Zimmerframe]

The new 700Wh (FP700) battery is built using the massive, next-generation 4680 cell format

A slight correction, they're built with Ampace 50480 cells

 

[Citylad77]

As a larger heavier rider, can I run one in a lower than max power mode and get solid battery range..?

This is one thing im trying to understand about these new motors...are they producing the power and with their special batteries more effficient as well so with lower power levels they can generate better range/battery life ???

I know I dont need 1500 watts and 120nm, 600watts and 85nm hauls my phat as up hills fairly nicely... the golden place for Emtb is the ability to make a climb fun .. dont need to shred it but being able to maintain 10-14 KMH uphills is a blast.
I had been thinking 95-100 NM should just about be perfect for almost anyone. I assumed running max power uphills killed battery ridiculously fast at those amazing power levels. Apparently some testing showed they can have less than 30 minutes of run time w/a 160 lb rider up decent grades at full power...that is wild.

I think 700-800 watts and 90-100 NM is Rock solid with an 750- 800kwh battery. I'm a fattie at 260# geared up on the bike, im running a 2024 Gen4 Bosh Orbea Wild Alloy, it has the latest bosch app update and sits at 600 watts of power w/a 625 watt battery and 85nm max torque. I keep it in tour mostly, eco occasionally on flats, using emtb+ or turbo only for short steep climbs and I've pulled 27 miles and about 3800 feet of climbing ending up with maybe 10% battery.
I have the 250 watt extender which will get me to 875 KWH of battery and a decentlyly improved range 33-35 miles dep on the climbing and power setting used. but basically, as much mtn biking as i'll want to do in one day, period,

I am super curious how much can these motors and batteries be " Managed " to max out range esp under heavier riders....? THAT is a test that some enterprising MTB youtuber needs to do.

PS ** I love the idea Avinox developed their own wide/phat batteries also... the investment in an improved form factor and I hope energy density seems to have been a

A slight correction, they're built with Ampace 50480 cells

In my experience, on the same trail I am getting about 15% more range from the 700w battery to the 800w one that was in my MK 1 Pl.

 

[Suns_PSD]

In my experience, on the same trail I am getting about 15% more range from the 700w battery to the 800w one that was in my MK 1 Pl.

That's because the M2 is more efficient than the M1.
700 wh is still less energy than 800wh. No changing that.
If you used an 800 wh battery on an M2 you would get 14% more range than the 700 wh battery, with maybe a hair belt that just because you're carrying an extra kilo.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I have not been able to verify the statement based on the ‘current “ (no pun intended) real-world engineering constraints of e-mountain bike battery design. Treating the Avinox 700Wh battery's new cell design purely as a "cost-saving measure" misses a massive leap in hardware physics.

I am not aware of any cells that can just "drop right in" and beat it” The fundamental issue in the statement is the physical format of the cells. The 600Wh and 800Wh cases use standard 21700 cylindrical lithium-ion cells (the same format Bosch uses in their latest Smart System batteries).

The new 700Wh (FP700) battery is built using the massive, next-generation 50480 cell format (the same giant form factor Tesla pioneered for high-power electric vehicles). Edit: correction, they're built with Ampace 50480 cells

Because a 50480 cell is more than double the diameter of a 21700 cell, they cannot physically "drop into" the internal structuring, battery management system (BMS) trays, or slim profiles meant for a 21700 layout.

2. The 700Wh cells are chemically and structurally superior for performance. If I understand correctly, stating as follows: “off-the-shelf cells are superior in every regard” misses what I understand to be relevant, pure performance standpoint under heavy load, the new 50480 cell formats ability to not overheat and provide high current is what actually unlocks the Avinox M2S motor.

The M2S motor pulls a massive 1,500W peak power. On the 600Wh and 800Wh (21700-based) batteries, the system restricts full "Boost" mode to prevent the cells from overheating and degrading.

Continuous Power: The structural design of the 50480 cell in the 700Wh pack allows for significantly higher continuous discharge currents with dramatically less internal resistance and heat buildup. Because of this thermal headroom, the 700Wh battery is the only pack in the lineup that allows the motor to sustain full peak output continuously without hitting a thermal throttle.

Energy Density vs. Total Capacity. While the 800Wh pack has more total capacity (more total juice in the tank), the 700Wh pack actually has a higher energy density (220 Wh/kg) compared to the 800Wh pack (214 Wh/kg).

By using the larger cell format, Avinox eliminated a massive amount of dead weight inside the pack—fewer individual cell casings, less internal wiring, and fewer weld points. This allowed them to shave off significant weight, keeping bikes like the Amflow PX under the critical 20kg threshold while delivering unprecedented power.

Summary Checklist of the Reality

Is it a drop-in swap? No. The physical cell diameters are entirely different (46mm vs 21mm).

Are standard cells superior? No. Standard 21700 cells cannot handle the continuous amp draw required for the 1,500W peak output without overheating, which is why the 800Wh pack is software-limited to 60-second bursts.

Was it just for cost-saving? No. It was an engineering requirement to maximize the power-to-weight ratio and thermal performance of a full-power e-MTB.

I don't know a ton about modern battery cells.
I don't care about the ability to discharge at a faster rate as on its own a continuous 1500 watts is unimportant to me.
However peak energy density combined with sort of an ideal size for my needs at 700 watt hours is a notable step forward. If I were to be purchasing a new Avinox bike I would want the 700 battery for sure.

 

[Astro66]

If I were to be purchasing a new Avinox bike I would want the 700 battery for sure.

My 800wh PL Pro is still the same weight as the PX Pro. So I'd prefer the bigger battery. The 2% efficiency gain is insignificant against the nearly 15% larger battery.

 

[Suns_PSD]

My 800wh PL Pro is still the same weight as the PX Pro. So I'd prefer the bigger battery. The 2% efficiency gain is insignificant against the nearly 15% larger battery.

You're conflating overall bike weight with battery weight.

The PL is the old model. It's less robust, less adjustable, etc. and the chassis itself is about a kilo lighter overall. Amflow even had to go to heavier spokes on the new model due to failures being common with the old ones.

That said, if you need 800wh, that's what you need. I just don't but I feel 600wh is a little closer to the edge than I'd like, which is why a bit extra is appealing to me.

 

[Astro66]

You're conflating overall bike weight with battery weight.

The PL is the old model. It's less robust, less adjustable, etc. and the chassis itself is about a kilo lighter overall. Amflow even had to go to heavier spokes on the new model due to failures being common with the old ones.

That said, if you need 800wh, that's what you need. I just don't but I feel 600wh is a little closer to the edge than I'd like, which is why a bit extra is appealing to me.

I like my all mountain bike light and nimble without sacrificing range. And I don't need the bike to be adjustable, as this saves weight. I run a separate bike for Enduro. And the PL geo is exactly what I need in in an All Mountain. I also changed my hubs and spokes myself to J type, and they have been perfect.

But I understand that my preferences aren't for everyone. Just saying that the 700wh battery may not be for everyone, even with it's small gains. Hence why many builders have gone for the 800wh battery. And given the choice. I would get the larger battery.

 

[Ndanger]

You're conflating overall bike weight with battery weight.

The PL is the old model. It's less robust, less adjustable, etc. and the chassis itself is about a kilo lighter overall. Amflow even had to go to heavier spokes on the new model due to failures being common with the old ones.

That said, if you need 800wh, that's what you need. I just don't but I feel 600wh is a little closer to the edge than I'd like, which is why a bit extra is appealing to me.

From what I have read, the thermal advantage is related to low internal resistance of the 700 wh battery which is a reason I like the battery. As we know IR is not your friend for a host of reasons. Resistance creates heat ( by converting electrical energy to heat) it also causes voltage sag. I have to believe that it is a factor to a more efficient power source.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I like my all mountain bike light and nimble without sacrificing range. And I don't need the bike to be adjustable, as this saves weight. I run a separate bike for Enduro. And the PL geo is exactly what I need in in an All Mountain. I also changed my hubs and spokes myself to J type, and they have been perfect.

But I understand that my preferences aren't for everyone. Just saying that the 700wh battery may not be for everyone, even with it's small gains. Hence why many builders have gone for the 800wh battery. And given the choice. I would get the larger battery.

That's fine that you prefer the more trail oriented bike.

But still don't conflate your lighter chassis with the larger battery somehow being lighter.

 

[ntm95]

I have not been able to verify the statement based on the ‘current “ (no pun intended) real-world engineering constraints of e-mountain bike battery design. Treating the Avinox 700Wh battery's new cell design purely as a "cost-saving measure" misses a massive leap in hardware physics.

I am not aware of any cells that can just "drop right in" and beat it” The fundamental issue in the statement is the physical format of the cells. The 600Wh and 800Wh cases use standard 21700 cylindrical lithium-ion cells (the same format Bosch uses in their latest Smart System batteries).

The new 700Wh (FP700) battery is built using the massive, next-generation 50480 cell format (the same giant form factor Tesla pioneered for high-power electric vehicles). Edit: correction, they're built with Ampace 50480 cells

Because a 50480 cell is more than double the diameter of a 21700 cell, they cannot physically "drop into" the internal structuring, battery management system (BMS) trays, or slim profiles meant for a 21700 layout.

2. The 700Wh cells are chemically and structurally superior for performance. If I understand correctly, stating as follows: “off-the-shelf cells are superior in every regard” misses what I understand to be relevant, pure performance standpoint under heavy load, the new 50480 cell formats ability to not overheat and provide high current is what actually unlocks the Avinox M2S motor.

The M2S motor pulls a massive 1,500W peak power. On the 600Wh and 800Wh (21700-based) batteries, the system restricts full "Boost" mode to prevent the cells from overheating and degrading.

Continuous Power: The structural design of the 50480 cell in the 700Wh pack allows for significantly higher continuous discharge currents with dramatically less internal resistance and heat buildup. Because of this thermal headroom, the 700Wh battery is the only pack in the lineup that allows the motor to sustain full peak output continuously without hitting a thermal throttle.

Energy Density vs. Total Capacity. While the 800Wh pack has more total capacity (more total juice in the tank), the 700Wh pack actually has a higher energy density (220 Wh/kg) compared to the 800Wh pack (214 Wh/kg).

By using the larger cell format, Avinox eliminated a massive amount of dead weight inside the pack—fewer individual cell casings, less internal wiring, and fewer weld points. This allowed them to shave off significant weight, keeping bikes like the Amflow PX under the critical 20kg threshold while delivering unprecedented power.

Summary Checklist of the Reality

Is it a drop-in swap? No. The physical cell diameters are entirely different (46mm vs 21mm).

Are standard cells superior? No. Standard 21700 cells cannot handle the continuous amp draw required for the 1,500W peak output without overheating, which is why the 800Wh pack is software-limited to 60-second bursts.

Was it just for cost-saving? No. It was an engineering requirement to maximize the power-to-weight ratio and thermal performance of a full-power e-MTB.

That's a lot of writing to say the 700wh uses better cells than the older, industry standard 5300mah cells.
I was saying there are better options than the 46xx format/chemistry that are off the shelf options, in a 21700 form factor.
Research the currently commercially available molicell p60b and m65a and report back.

 

[action99]

In my experience, on the same trail I am getting about 15% more range from the 700w battery to the 800w one that was in my MK 1 Pl.

It is for sure not the battery nor the motor as the motor is only <3% more efficient than the M1 and the battery has 12.5% less energy. You most probably putting more effort on it with modes that use a bit less power, there is no magic 700wh is 700wh and 3% is 3%, although internet is full of people convinced that you can defeat physics.

 

[Suns_PSD]

It is for sure not the battery nor the motor as the motor is only <3% more efficient than the M1 and the battery has 12.5% less energy. You most probably putting more effort on it with modes that use a bit less power, there is no magic 700wh is 700wh and 3% is 3%, although internet is full of people convinced that you can defeat physics.

I suppose that we could argue that 3% of around 80% is about a 4% improvement. But your point still remains...

 

[Suns_PSD]

That's a lot of writing to say the 700wh uses better cells than the older, industry standard 5300mah cells.
I was saying there are better options than the 46xx format/chemistry that are off the shelf options, in a 21700 form factor.
Research the currently commercially available molicell p60b and m65a and report back.

I know that you are, our resident battery cell expert.

Why is no one choosing to use the Molicell's that you mention? Is it a cost issue? How much more dense are they on a cellular basis and how much would that translate to the overall pack.

To Ndanger's point, battery cellular density is not the only concern just because additional wiring, casing, and whatever else is required to package various cells cuts into the overall battery pack's density.

 

[Fangs2k]

It is for sure not the battery nor the motor as the motor is only <3% more efficient than the M1 and the battery has 12.5% less energy. You most probably putting more effort on it with modes that use a bit less power, there is no magic 700wh is 700wh and 3% is 3%, although internet is full of people convinced that you can defeat physics.

It’s also pretty warm at the moment, warm temps can temporarily increase capacity and lower resistance.

The dry trails also help with range etc.

 

[Zimmerframe]

warm temps can temporarily increase capacity and lower resistance. When drinking beer ....

Finished the sentence for you.

 

[notaninfluencer]

This is how they work... just saying, an email i received today...

 

[notaninfluencer]

This is how they work... just saying, an email i received today...


View attachment 185468

maybe they should ask more transparently, "We would like to place an advertisement on your channel," i cant review something ive never use.d... if they asked for an ad i might say, oh yes, i understand...

 

[notaninfluencer]

I've said it before. I'll say it again. If climbing technical terrain is your jiz. Then Avinox is the only motor system you want. If descending technical terrain is your jiz. Then there are lots of options.

The skills I have learnt from being able to climb terrain, never previously thought imaginable, is undeniable. In my MTB club, I have gone from being in the bottom 50%, to one of the best riders, in the 12 months of Avinox ownership. We have over 900 members.

In the last 3 months, I've been rewarded with a senior position in the Club, and given the ability to host riding events. What I also have noticed is that everyone wants to ride with me, due to the terrain I can now take people. I can put this meteoric rise, fully down to the Avinox Motor System, combined with the lighter weight of the Amflow platform. (My previous bike was a Merida E160, with a Shimano EP801)

And the other very noticeable fact is many MTB riders from our club, have seen the terrain I can now conquer, without stopping, and are changing their minds about changing to an EMTB.

Now I know this sounds extraordinary and boastful. But the Avinox System makes this big a difference. I see it as a complete gamechanger, and have no interest in a 600 watt lighter system.

i dissagree, its easier to climb with a bosch motor or yamaha or Shimano, they are more reactive to torque inputs, the Avinox has a delay.

 

[Zimmerframe]

maybe they should ask more transparently, "We would like to place an advertisement on your channel," i cant review something ive never use.d... if they asked for an ad i might say, oh yes, i understand...

Am I missing something??

That's pretty much the same message a zillion companies send out for product promo.

Each "influencer" decides if.thst fits with their model or not ?

Seems pretty transparent already with what they and others say.

 

[notaninfluencer]

Am I missing something??

That's pretty much the same message a zillion companies send out for product promo.

Each "influencer" decides if.thst fits with their model or not ?

Seems pretty transparent already with what they and others say.

Reviewing a product you have not touched, seen or used, is not a review. It feel like to me that the people wanting to do promotion dont actually know what the differences are. Maybe ive missed something culturally... who is going to tell them...

 

[Vision_Tim]

It's not a review. Even if you're "comparing" image quality, without sourcing the video yourself you can't really judge it against anything else and be truthful. I mean there are ways around this like just commenting "from what I can see..."

I like to look at reviews from DC Rainmaker as the standard and go from there. Ask yourself, WWDCRD? I get making money, that's a real thing - but "fake" reviews are bad and taint your brand.

Whoa, what was this thread about anyway??

 

[Brawwp]

i dissagree, its easier to climb with a bosch motor or yamaha or Shimano, they are more reactive to torque inputs, the Avinox has a delay.

Have you rode one? I haven’t owned shimano or Yamaha, but have owned Bosch and spesh. The Avinox is for sure a better climber. Not that the others are bad though. You can also adjust the reactivity.

 

[Brawwp]

Reviewing a product you have not touched, seen or used, is not a review. It feel like to me that the people wanting to do promotion dont actually know what the differences are. Maybe ive missed something culturally... who is going to tell them...

It’s done all the time. There’s already the next iPhone reviews. It’s comparison chart reviews. Look at GoPro right now. There’s like hundreds of reviews and people aren’t even allowed to show the footage.

The good thing is you’re on a forum with a bunch of real people that own the avinox and can give input. But the best review is your own

 

[ntm95]

I know that you are, our resident battery cell expert.

Why is no one choosing to use the Molicell's that you mention? Is it a cost issue? How much more dense are they on a cellular basis and how much would that translate to the overall pack.

To Ndanger's point, battery cellular density is not the only concern just because additional wiring, casing, and whatever else is required to package various cells cuts into the overall battery pack's density.

In a “800wh” form factor, which is a 10s4p configuration, the current packs are around 21,200mah of actual capacity.
The molicell 65’s would be 26,000mah of capacity in 10s4p.

Where things get interesting is that a 10s3p configuration (current 600wh package) ends up at 19,500mah.
It is also much shorter than the 700wh, for better handling.
And can charge and discharge at similar or better rates as the 700wh.

I assume the 700wh 10s1p configuration is cheaper to manufacture due to the straightforward “tube” packaging, and low ish demand for the 46xx format.
There’s no other reason to have gone that way.
The size of the cells is a benefit in terms of density, yes, but they do not have the best available chemistry, and the their size limits the potential configurations as well. An evolutionary dead end, if you will.
$10 says we see a 10s4p battery comprised of m65’s from DJI in the next year.

 

[richy]

This is how they work... just saying, an email i received today...


View attachment 185468

Respect to those creators banking 200 bucks for 4 vids jfc is this the money we are dealing with?!

 

[Suns_PSD]

Respect to those creators banking 200 bucks for 4 vids jfc is this the money we are dealing with?!

It is an absurdly low amount of money, but it's the access to the new gear at no cost that drives subscriptions, viewers, more profitable sponsors, etc...