Avinox M2S: 1,500W, 150Nm, and a PR Offensive

[bmwpowere36m3]

I'm sure a tough climb has gated people from things that are too difficult for them, but I'm equally sure there are tons of double blacks that aren't hard to get to at all. It's just not a strong argument. The safest option would be to ban all mountain biking, but I'm sure you're not advocating for that.

My point was, there's a lost appreciation to the effort and sport, when it comes too easily.

 

[Brawwp]

My point was, there's a lost appreciation to the effort and sport, when it comes too easily.

Then ride analog? Some people ride to get to the DH. Idk why that is always overlooked. I get some people want/need the workout and enjoy climbing. I personally don’t care about climbs. I just climb to get to dh and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m already fit. If every mountain had a lift access I’d ride that up haha.

 

[Astro66]

I just said it's not your skill if the bike is doing it for you.

Yes. I'm 60 yo and 3 months ago a heart condition nearly killed me. I came within minutes of not being here anymore. So if I can gain an edge and ride with better riders because of a new technology in EMTB motors, I'm going to use it and not die.

I'm riding the mountain bike trails in Australia for pure enjoyment. And the more talented riders I can ride with, the more I enjoy. And whether Drugs, Surgery, or a 1300 peak watts motor is allowing me to keep pace with these riders. I will take it and I am not worried that anyone sees these aids as a crutch. Or that the drugs, surgeons and Avinox motor, and not my skill, is why I can ride with them. I'm just having a butt load of fun and the drugs, surgeons and Avinox motor are keeping me alive.

That said. Riding with better, more capable riders, will improve your skill faster than anything I know.

This is like going from analog to electric and then going on and on about how you're an amazing climber now...

But you are a better climber on a EMTB. Even better on an Avinox Motored one. The thread is about the Pro's and Con's of the new Avinox System. A massive pro, is you are a better climber. Thus you can access terrain that was previously unscalable. Now with this motor it is, and you don't have to be 20yo and in the prime of your life to do so.

 

[Fugu]

Why does "flying" up a fire road at 25kph make one a prick? Seems totally victimless. As far as passing people on single track, that is just the reality of mixed speed climbing.

Well yeah. That's true. I mean, there emotional damage to the guy struggling up the hill, but that's not a me issue.

That wasn't a good way of putting it. I suppose what I'm alluding to there is me riding like a nutcase generally. Which will occur with more power. I get giddy with it. And like I said, I'm not alone it that. We're long past the motor just helping us up the hill. It's its own adrenaline now.

 

[Astro66]

I mean, there emotional damage to the guy struggling up the hill, but that's not a me issue.

Imagine the emotional damage if you were on an Analogue and you flew past them whilst they were on a low powered EMTB ....... Now that would leave a scar .......

 

[Fugu]

Yes. I'm 60 yo and 3 months ago a heart condition nearly killed me. I came within minutes of not being here anymore. So if I can gain an edge and ride with better riders because of a new technology in EMTB motors, I'm going to use it and not die.

I'm riding the mountain bike trails in Australia for pure enjoyment. And the more talented riders I can ride with, the more I enjoy. And whether Drugs, Surgery, or a 1300 peak watts motor is allowing me to keep pace with these riders. I will take it and I am not worried that anyone sees these aids as a crutch. Or that the drugs, surgeons and Avinox motor, and not my skill, is why I can ride with them. I'm just having a butt load of fun and the drugs, surgeons and Avinox motor are keeping me alive.

That said. Riding with better, more capable riders, will improve your skill faster than anything I know.

But you are a better climber on a EMTB. Even better on an Avinox Motored one. The thread is about the Pro's and Con's of the new Avinox System. A massive pro, is you are a better climber. Thus you can access terrain that was previously unscalable. Now with this motor it is, and you don't have to be 20yo and in the prime of your life to do so.

Again, absolutely zero issue with you using the tech. I use it. I'd like more of it. Everyone should use it!

I ride trails for pure enjoyment too.

"The skills I have learnt from being able to climb terrain, never previously thought imaginable, is undeniable. In my MTB club, I have gone from being in the bottom 50%, to one of the best riders, in the 12 months of Avinox ownership. We have over 900 members."

The skills you have learnt. Not "the things I've been able to climb". Or "the stuff I can do on this bike". The Avinox has removed power management and far lessened the need to manage body position.

I can't wait to get my own Avinox and get this massive SKILL shot in the arm.

And no, you are definitely not a better climber on an EMTB. The result is that you get up the hill quicker. BUT YOU HAVEN'T CHANGED. What you ARE has not improved - you are not outputting more wattage, your VO2 max hasn't changed, you haven't got lighter. The bike is a fucking great climber. Going from Analog to ebike most if not all will rapidly become worse climbers - who get up the hill much faster.

You aren't gonna hear what I saying. I'm done with the merry go round though. Geezus. I bet you never conceded anything on a forum... and I'm done with this now.

 

[Astro66]

Again, absolutely zero issue with you using the tech. I use it. I'd like more of it. Everyone should use it!

I ride trails for pure enjoyment too.

"The skills I have learnt from being able to climb terrain, never previously thought imaginable, is undeniable. In my MTB club, I have gone from being in the bottom 50%, to one of the best riders, in the 12 months of Avinox ownership. We have over 900 members."

The skills you have learnt. Not "the things I've been able to climb". Or "the stuff I can do on this bike". The Avinox has removed power management and far lessened the need to manage body position.

I can't wait to get my own Avinox and get this massive SKILL shot in the arm.

And no, you are definitely not a better climber on an EMTB. The result is that you get up the hill quicker. BUT YOU HAVEN'T CHANGED. What you ARE has not improved - you are not outputting more wattage, your VO2 max hasn't changed, you haven't got lighter. The bike is a fucking great climber. Going from Analog to ebike most if not all will rapidly become worse climbers - who get up the hill much faster.

You aren't gonna hear what I saying. I'm done with the merry go round though. Geezus. I bet you never conceded anything on a forum... and I'm done with this now.

Mate. Climbing with a 1300 watt peak powered EMTB, requires a completely different set of skills. When I first got my Amflow. I could not climb better. Initially I set the peak power to 800 watts. 1000 watts kept driving me offline.

I had to learn a different set of skills to climb better with this motor. That is why I practised daily on a rocky trail near home. I made lots of posts about this training when I was doing it. Eventually I was able to use Turbo, Maximum Overrun and the full 1000 watts.

So yes. I did learn new skills. And they allow me to climb better. It's that simple. Sorry, I'm not going to lie and say I didn't. I'm also sorry you are not enjoying the different perspective. I have enjoyed listening to yours.

It's OK to agree to not agreeing. There is no winning the internet.

 

[Ndanger]

Power in the hands of an experienced rider is one thing however, my question is what happens to trail access when an unskilled, aggressive and overconfident individual potentially injures a trail user… Washington state rider named Steve Ruggiero filed a lawsuit against Specialized around a crash that occurred while he was riding a Turbo Levo on the Alpine Trail in Oakridge, Oregon. According to the legal filing, Ruggiero was descending a steep section of the trail in "Eco" mode and decelerating over a flat patch of loose shale. When he hit a section of loamy dirt, he claims the rear wheel suddenly and unexpectedly accelerated due to what the lawsuit calls a "manufacturing flaw" or "defect" related to the motor's overrun behavior.

In the brief of the filing, I did not see where the individual mentions anything about his own personal responsibility, or his lack of knowledge of the features of his bike.

 

[Astro66]

Power in the hands of an experienced rider is one thing however, my question is what happens to trail access when an unskilled, aggressive and overconfident individual potentially injures a trail user

I agree in the US, there could be issues with the variable regulations. And maybe Avinox should be locked to a lower peak power in the US market. But I don't see a problem where EN15194 is enforced. No one in my state is raising any issues with the Avinox motors in EMTBs. They are very strictly regulated. And this is keeping land users and regulators happy.

I guess if there is a rise in incidents relating to Avinox powered EMTBs, it can be looked at. But right now the regulatory system is working.

he claims the rear wheel suddenly and unexpectedly accelerated due to what the lawsuit calls a "manufacturing flaw" or "defect" related to the motor's overrun behavior.

Nearly all modern motors have overrun. It comes default on a low setting. It requires the user turn it up. When I was learning to use maximum overrun. It pushed me offline and I hit a tree. But I wasn't going to create a lawsuit because I didn't have the skills to control it yet.

I just set Trail mode to about 1 metre of overrun, and Turbo set to 2 metres. I choose the power mode for the section of trail I'm negotiating, with the overrun in mind, and use the brakes when overrun is pushing too hard.

You have to be responsible for your own choices.

 

[Heated]

FYI - all its going to take is one person getting injured by some Ebiker Going 40+kmph up a hill for the Law to get involved - then non-bike people will get involved and limit power/speed will be the outcome and in many Places, peak power is already being looked at after electric motorbikes, such as surrons have caused issues.
This will be seriously bad if it happens in America as no doubt the injured person will sue.

Personally Im a little nervous about any negative outcomes as it will cause some forced updates etc

 

[Astro66]

peak power is already being looked at after electric motorbikes, such as surrons have caused issues.

Not here in Australia. Rated power was reduced from 500 watts to 250 watts in my state to comply with EN15194 and local regulatory certification has been enforced. You cannot buy a EMTB from any reputable store without NSW certification, and the M2S is in it's last few weeks of certification. Should be completed by mid May.

We seem to be able to separate EMTBs from E-Motos here. Even the media is beginning to report the issues with illegal ebikes as E-Moto's. It just takes education.

 

[Hob Nob]

Honestly. What’s a load of of guff. We have bikes in our garage with G5 Bosch motors, Avinox M1’s & and M2S & I can’t think of one occasion where I’ve hopped on the latest & had to ‘relearn & upskill’ riding up hills

If all people are interested in is riding up hills of varying technicality, there is another sport probably better suited, it’s called Trials & you can be marked for your skill, rather than the power of your motor.

Might go & rip up some hills on my EM Pure today, can’t wait to be climbing god

 

[Heated]

Not here in Australia. Rated power was reduced from 500 watts to 250 watts in my state to comply with EN15194 and local regulatory certification has been enforced. You cannot buy a EMTB from any reputable store without NSW certification, and the M2S is in it's last few weeks of certification. Should be completed by mid May.

We seem to be able to separate EMTBs from E-Motos here. Even the media is beginning to report the issues with illegal ebikes as E-Moto's. It just takes education.

But yet Ebikes are still limited to 25kpmh in Australia? 1 foot forward and one holding on Over there huh
Technically NZ has a no-limit but its heavily Leaning on the 32kph guideline which is apparently going to become law.

Regarding the EN15194, how long before They realize that avinox users are continuously, maybe everytime above that wattage limit? Talking about peak becoming continuous(using avinox as an example since It's thread title but applies to all)

Will there become a Peak limit? such as what UCI have, eventually the Governments will see UCI's Peak ratings and probably act on it?

Just to be clear, I dont want there to be rules around it or anything but Some peoples behavior Could ruin it for others.

 

[Astro66]

Regarding the EN15194, how long before They realize that avinox users are continuously, maybe everytime above that wattage limit?

Regulators aren't idiots. The motor either complies with the 250 watts rated, or not. If the regulators are convinced. What is the argument that they don't comply ?

The motor will derate when it gets hot. That's a fact. It literally has a thermistor now built in to protect it. Is it derating according to the specs to comply with a 250 watt rated motor? No idea. Not my field of expertise to speculate.

It's not our place to convince or check the regulators. It's our place to check they have certified it. And they have.

Will there become a Peak limit? such as what UCI have, eventually the Governments will see UCI's Peak ratings and probably act on it?

UCI is a body to oversee racing. Their role is to set regulations for competitive cycling. When racing. There must be a level playing field. That is why they have regulated a peak limit. It's nothing to do with governance over the general public.

 

[Heated]

Regulators aren't idiots. The motor either complies with the 250 watts rated, or not. If the regulators are convinced. What is the argument that they don't comply ?

The motor will derate when it gets hot. That's a fact. It literally has a thermistor now built in to protect it. Is it derating according to the specs to comply with a 250 watt rated motor? No idea. Not my field of expertise to speculate.

It's not our place to convince or check the regulators. It's our place to check they have certified it. And they have.

UCI is a body to oversee racing. Their role is to set regulations for competitive cycling. When racing. There must be a level playing field. That is why they have regulated a peak limit. It's nothing to do with governance over the general public.

I get what you are saying 100% but we know how governments can act when there is public out-cry, especially When in our case, non-bikers - this is also a public issue, sometimes people dont know whats best for themselves.

Im basing my Opinion on the history of Government's and controlling bodies of anything. They will act If it saves any legal action's - look at Contact sports, Mass changes because of people suing - arguably making the game as a player or viewer less appealing.

Im very Anti-control of things, such as bike restrictions, I own it - I should be able to do whatever I want with it.

 

[nickf]

You literally called people expressing an opinion in an opinion thread, "Novel".

Did I? Really? Why not read my comment again before you type and see if you can literally understand the meaning of all the words I used when joined up in a sentence!

 

[Citylad77]

It’s hilarious we’re all “fanboys” (as if that’s a bad thing) in a derogatory way for loving our Avinox bikes (most of us coming from Bosch).

But then you have this whole slew of guys that have never even ridden Avinox going out of their way everyday on here to poop on avinox and praising Bosch, yet somehow we’re the crazy ones? I don’t see many people that went from the m1 back to Bosch bikes. I see a crapload of people going Bosch/brose/etc to Avinox. But whatevs. Keep crying about the power then begging

Hey,
Has anyone riding with Avinox any experience on drive train wear?

my

Hey,
Has anyone riding with Avinox any experience on drive train wear?

Yes,

Speed is proportional to danger, in fact you could argue that danger is proportional to speed squared (since its energy that will cause injuries and energy is proportional to speed squared). But there is also the less physical danger, the danger of ebikes getting banned from trails.
Right now we enjoy a very privileged existence, we don't have to register, pay tax, wear helmets (probably a good idea in most cases though) or have insurance (though most people would be well advised to have 3rd party insurance); we get to ride roads and bridleways and (in most places) most trails. That's a pretty cushy deal.
If riders start alarming hikers etc. (even if there are no actual collisions) or SEEM like we might be disturbing wildlife etc. then we could lose all that.
DJI/Avinox are fine to say "trust me bro" but once it's fucked, it's fucked; so we should definitely be erring on the side of caution here.

if that was the case, then I would be in more danger on my 650B as it was a faster bike. Hills aside, like they say power is nothing without control, and that’s were DJI is by far the class leader. You can see as to why some bike makers and motor manufacturers have kicked of . DJI and the likes of AMflow have just killed their business models overnight. I think it’s brilliant I really do, some bike manufacturers just kicked out 2nd division bikes just expecting existing customers to keep handing over their debit cards, they couldn’t have been more wrong. I see AMflow are predicting 500k sales of one of their bikes, having ridden it I can well believe it.

 

[otbmaster]

"Spec sheets sell bikes" of course it does and always have.
Avinox motors and software is one of a kind but the rest is medium and it's a lot more to think about before ordering Amflow.
My conclusion only.

Yes . Maybe to many people order their bike without testing it beforehand . And maybe one is not always honest with oneself in what one really want from the bike. Like I was more than happy with the power on the Ep8 which I used mostly in trail mode anyway . Yes , when riding toghter with others it was a little slower and I had to Turbo it to match . But my biggest issue with just the motor was all the ratteling and noises , the resistance when pedaling over 25kph , slow charging and I liked the overrun and traction better on other motors . The rest was more a bike specific issues . The avinox motorsystem is awsome , but it is like with any motor. Put it in a crappy bike,car ,motorbike , boat and the result will still not be any good.

 

[Brawwp]

Why did we need another thread on this. Avinox is literally like religion and politics. We’re not changing anyone’s minds in here, it’s just a big circling argument.

Avinox is here, it is what it is. Deal with it. No sense in crying about it anymore. The continued worrying about regulations on a forum isn’t going to stop the market and right now Avinox is what’s hot. We can play what-ifs all day, but I can ram a 0 watt hour bike into someone just as easily as any other power bike.

 

[emtbPhil]

I'm afraid I don't agree with DJI
Regardless of the Bosch vs DJI argument I think Bosch's approach to more power was bang on

120nm and 600% assist has massively helped me (as a 110kg rider) on steep tech - but it cuts out at 9mph... and that's PERFECT - if I'm struggling to get up something because of my weight or physical health it's there to make it easier

What it doesn't do is allow me to pedal up hills at 30mph - there's absolutely no justification for that whatsoever.
DJI should close the loophole on the speed limit and ideally limit the max power to lower speeds still - otherwise we all know where this will go with UK/EU lawmakers, there WILL be limits on power, and likely registration of bikes/licenses etc if the current trend continues

 

[Mankra]

The actual formula (regardless of units) is: torque * RPM = Power. Or in our case NM * cadence = watts. This is why Bosch had to limit the torque increase to low speeds/ rpms, otherwise they would blow past the mandated 750 watt limit.

Correct, so the CX5 can delivere the 120nm only till ~ 50rpm....
Higher cadence = lower torque.
The Avinox have the same torque over a wide range of cadence. This is one point, why its feel so naturaly.

What would make me piss myself laughing is if Bosch pulled out a 200nm 2KW high voltage beast next year.

If Bafang is OK for you: Bafang M560, 185Nm, 2000W Peak.

 

[highly_Focused]

Trying to poop on avinox owners I guess would be more appropriate term @Fangs2k

Am i missing something here?
This is a discussion about Amflow eMTB's.
Those who have ridden an Amflow for some time come to the conclusion this is a very nice bike in design, motor & other bits. And it's a pleasure to ride. A nice place to be.
And they tend to say nice things about their Amflow.

And then they get criticized for liking their Amflow and start enthusing about it.
Are there some other brand lurkers here?

 

[Ribinrobin]

"Im finally the greatest climber on my new avinox"

​

 

[CoolDown]

Imagine the weight/power/size/capacity ratio of a DJI system applied to a Light-Mid Assist motor.
You'd get a completely invisible integration with enough power for most users.
The foundation everyone was looking for, right ?

Oh, sorry, you have to put the penis-measuring contest aside to even begin to imagine that...
Humanity and marketing tires me out.

 

[Valaminium]

I swear Avinox will be curing cancer and declaring the strait of Hormuz reopen the way these fanboys go on about it.

I’m guessing 95% of M1&2 are running VPN speed de-restricted so how long until a new legislation is forced western worldwide. Some of us could be playing it safe and still get worked over for yet another form of taxation!

 

[action99]

I really don't get it, I just checked my last ride, going up 95% single trail max speed 11km/h, going down 35 km/h.
Will I have more chance to injure somebody going up or down? Spoiler: breaking up hill from 11 to 0 is much much faster than from 35 going down hill. 99% of the issue with pedestrian is going down....

I'm in the 5% that has is motor restricted to 25km/h, I don't know anybody that has derestricted in my friends circle so not sure where are the others 95%? If you do single trails here I see no need to de-restricted and be out of law.

Btw hearing Bosch talking about following the law with them being the key player in the Diesel Scandal is funny:
"Bosch was deeply involved in the diesel scandal (Dieselgate). As the world's largest automotive supplier, they developed and supplied the core engine control software and "defeat devices" used by automakers like Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche to cheat emissions tests"
We had two VW affected that we had to rush in and get fixed with zero compensation for the cheating. And now here people do the moral to us that Bosch is all about following the law....

 

[Suns_PSD]

I really don't get it, I just checked my last ride, going up 95% single trail max speed 11km/h, going down 35 km/h.
Will I have more chance to injure somebody going up or down? Spoiler: breaking up hill from 11 to 0 is much much faster than from 35 going down hill. 99% of the issue with pedestrian is going down....

I'm in the 5% that has is motor restricted to 25km/h, I don't know anybody that has derestricted in my friends circle so not sure where are the others 95%? If you do single trails here I see no need to de-restricted and be out of law.

Btw hearing Bosch talking about following the law with them being the key player in the Diesel Scandal is funny:
"Bosch was deeply involved in the diesel scandal (Dieselgate). As the world's largest automotive supplier, they developed and supplied the core engine control software and "defeat devices" used by automakers like Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche to cheat emissions tests"
We had two VW affected that we had to rush in and get fixed with zero compensation for the cheating. And now here people do the moral to us that Bosch is all about following the law....

That's a blatant misrepresentation of Bosch's involvement in Dieselgate.
Bosch provided Volkswagen with the software for testing purposes on an in-house dyno and warned Volkswagen specifically that it was not roadworthy and not to be used outside of lab setting. Edited: they did receive a fine.

 

[action99]

That's a blatant misrepresentation of Bosch's involvement in Dieselgate.
Bosch provided Volkswagen with the software for testing purposes on an in-house dyno and warned Volkswagen specifically that it was not roadworthy and not to be used outside of lab setting. Which is exactly why they received no fine at all.

or maybe not: they agreed on a settlement for 90'000'000 euro.... Bosch pays 90-million-euro fine over diesel scandal

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Then ride analog? Some people ride to get to the DH. Idk why that is always overlooked. I get some people want/need the workout and enjoy climbing. I personally don’t care about climbs. I just climb to get to dh and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m already fit. If every mountain had a lift access I’d ride that up haha.

I do both... as there's days I just want to hammer out DHs or feel bonked and others I want more a workout and/or challenge depending on the ride.

Its so easy to put it in turbo and have fun the entire ride... not really challenging your fitness or skill (power and overrun makes many tech moves a lot easier) on all but the DHs. Nothing wrong with that. It just feels like a different sport and in some ways less rewarding. At the same time, I'm smiling up and down when riding my eMTB.

The more I ride an eMTB, the more power and speed I desire. Then I ride my analog for bit and realize how much assistance and power the eMTB really provides. It's like jumping between an XC bike and enduro... at first the enduro feels like its so much work pedalling those heavy/slow tires, but after a bit it feels normal. Then you jump on your XC bike and it feels like a rocket.

 

[Pilot_Dave]

Please read this in the spirit it is meant, as an example:

I love toys, and have a car with 670hp and a truck with 720hp, both from the factory.

I don't drive around with my foot on the floor, in danger of killing people at every turn. If I want to get rowdy and use them the way they were designed, I go off of public roads. That's called responsibility. But most people buy the same vehicles because of their spec sheet... commonly known as measurbators. I thank God everyday that the regulators here haven't decided to outlaw high-horsepower vehicles. What an ignorant, heavy handed approach that would be.

Same with Avinox-powered bikes. As an adult--the big differentiator--I can slow and yield to other riders and obstacles. When it's safe, say up a fire road, I can use more power and get to destination faster. It's called personal responsibility. I have come down trails on analog bikes only to be met by hikers...and have to yield and slow.

Avinox puts out the spec sheet because it sells bikes...oh boy, does it sell bikes. But that's only a small part of mountain biking, which we can probably all agree. Honestly, I spent much more time and effort dialing in my suspension on my new bike than I did learning all the "gee-whiz" motor tech.

Sorry to sound like I'm ranting or preaching. The point I'm trying to make is let the manufacturers build their products, let consumers drive the market, and let riders be responsible riding. I don't want or need speed limits on my bike ride. What's next...no jumping zones? Don't use your brakes because it tears up the trails?

It is bicycles, not launching rockets. Regulators regulate. It's the HOA mentality. Ride responsibly.

On a personal note, I'm much more excited about the bike itself and the new geometry, than by a new motor.