Puzzled by Service from my LBS

[sjturner2112]

(I am in the US) SO I took my EMTB into my local LBS for a shock and fork lowers service, and to get new cranks and tires. A week later they call me back to pick up my bike, but they tell me the chain is worn out. I will note here that the bike was shifting perfectly when i took it in. SO I say, ok, put on a new chain. I arrive to pick up the bike, and they inform me that it doesn't shift well now with the new chain, and that is because it needs a new cassette because "cassettes wear with the chain" - I say, well, ok, this is now getting unexpectedly expensive, but I guess if it's worn, I will believe what they say and get it replaced as well. I will note here that the drivetrain was 8 months old when I brought it in. They quote me a price for a deore basic 12 speed 10-51 t cassette (shimano microspline) it's pretty high, so I say I think I can acquire the OG 7100 casstte for a better price, and so I do, (it's real, it's not counterfeit, it's not alibaba or anything like that, it's from another online US LBS). Took a few days to get in. In the meantime, my bike is really unrideable, stays in maybe 1 gear. I take the XT 7100 cassette over, they put it on, the mechanic can't get it to shift all that well. He rides it around a couple times, works on it, and then tells me that it works, it's shifting "ok" but he thinks the derailleur is a little bent. SO I say, ok, can I just get a new hanger, can it be fixed, what's the deal? He tells me I would need a new derailleur but it's good enough to ride. I say ok, I'll keep all of that in mind. I drive the bike back to my house, but cannot ride it until Sunday, so it sits in the garage.

So Sunday I am able to give it some attention, and I am thinking about a ride since it's been like 3 weeks now since all of this started. I go to ride it out of the driveway and it's unrideable. SHifts won't take, shifts pop out of gear, the chain skips all over the place, it's the same mess it was before. So I put it back in the garage, I am pretty pissed at this point. I had a perfectly fine shifting, lovely expensive EMTB 3 weeks ago, and now I have godawful mess of skipping gears etc. I resigned myself to ordering a new derailleur because I don't know what else to do. I don't what was accomplished with this entire, unexpected drivetrain replacement that was previously functioning perfectly, like what to think about this, or the LBS. Should I be upset with the LBS? I feel like I should take the bike on Monday to another shop, and get a second opinion, and a possible fix.? SHould I take it back to the first LBS and ask them to please continue to repair the drivetrain until it actual works? Or should i go elsewhere? I am also confused why they kept returning it to me in an unrideable condition, twice, telling me it was a little 'funky' but 'ok' - what do I make of all this? Is this typical? Meanwhile, going on week 4 without the bike in the middle of the best part of the riding season.

 

[RustyIron]

There's a lot of questions at play here.

The first is regarding the chain. If the chain was indeed worn and he didn't tell you, he'd be negligent. After all, part of the reason you pay an "expert" is so he can use his knowledge to provide you with good advice.

Secondly, it's entirely possible the cassette was worn, and it didn't become evident until the new chain was installed. Chainrings are the same; you might not know it's bad until you try to install a new chain.

If your bike doesn't run right after the guy worked on it, there's a good chance he's just a dimwit. After all, it's just a bike, not a Falcon 9 rocket. It's experiences like yours that motivated me to work on my own bike many moons ago. If you want something done right... you know the rest.

 

[Jackware]

If they're struggling to get it changing gear, I hate to think what they've done with your suspension....

 

[Adyzakydany]

If the chain was worn beyond the 0.5% mark, then chances are the cassette and chainring were then also worn, although shifting okay, you would then need to change all 3, only if the chain is slightly worn, you can change it without changing out the other bits, otherwise you'll have gears popping out etc.

I'd ask how worn was your chain?

 

[ozzybmx]

Surely any bike shop on the planet would be able to tell you that with a 8 month old worn chain on an ebike, the cassette would be buggered too.
Then told you it was worn and warned you your cassette would be worn on a few cogs, so... new chain and cassette together now, or continue to ride the worn stuff till the chain breaks or the gears skip, then you'd probably be up for a chainring too.

So if it went in at 100% shift health, had the chain and cassette replaced, there's about 3 option to why its still shit-shifting.

The bike shop is completely useless and doesn't know how to index gears.
The bike has had a knock and the derailleur hanger is bent... surely the shop has an alignment tool.
The shop has not fitted the new chain at the correct length.
Outside bonus points: The shop has fitted the wrong speed cassette

 

[Ndanger]

Been there done that, new chain, then new cassette and chain ring. Only to find the bent hanger. After to finally find something I didn't consider... shift cable needed replacement to shift smoothly.

 

[RustyMTB]

Surely any bike shop on the planet would be able to tell you that with a 8 month old worn chain on an ebike, the cassette would be buggered too.

Because it wouldn't necessarily be worn. Three chains to a cassette is the shibboleth but that does depend on catching the chains in time. In this case though it sounds like it is. The shop would have just used a chain checker & reported a worn chain. A decent shop would do that, then test the bike with a new chain & determined the extent of the wear on the cassette rather than just handing it back half fixed.

This one sounds half arsed though. The bike skipping around gears sounds more like adjustment to me than a vague suggestion of a bent derailleur. If it was shifting ok before & now it isn't & the only changes are a chain & cassette, then how did the derailleur turn into the main character?

To me it sounds like a mechanic washing their hands of a problem but nothing is unfixable. The bike has a new chain & cassette so from this good starting point, I would check the derailleur is straight & if it is, then from there all you have to do is adjust the gears via the barrel on the shifter & the b screw adjustment on the mech. Shimano derailleurs have an arrow stamped on the derailleur cage that you use to align the mech with the cassette. If you want to do this yourself, there are plenty of tutorials on Youtube.

 

[Astro66]

The bike shop is completely useless and doesn't know how to index gears.
The bike has had a knock and the derailleur hanger is bent...

Howly cow ......... I have repaired a poorly shifting mates EMTB on the trail with a multi-tool. It's normally always a bent hanger or bent cage, that you can get near enough by eye, and fine tune with the thumb screw. Fix properly at home with the alignment tool.

Take it to another shop. This shop is either clueless, or cannot be arsed to spent the time to fix it.

 

[steve_sordy]

There are so many things that only have to be a bit wrong for everything to look as though it is all knackered. But it seldom is.
After 8 months of use and an unkown mileage, but long enough to need new tyres and a suspension service, then quite probably the chain was well worn. Then it's a cascade. A badly worn chain is like mechanical AIDS. It wears everything it comes into contact with at a faster rate. If the chain is well worn I would happily accept that the cassette may also need replacement.
Some standard advice would be to leave the chain and cassette in place until the shifting starts to get bad, then change both. I have done that. I have even experienced a new chain failing to run on an old cassette, so I returned the worn chain and left them to run together. But the big problem with leaving an old chain and cassette to run together is that they also wear out your jockey wheels and the front ring. Many front rings tend to be steel and are much more robust than those made from aluminium alloy. If so, you can take a chance with the ring.

Things to look out for next:

• Check that the jockey wheels don't look like ninja throwing stars.
• Check what the front ring is made from. If steel, you'll be OK, otherwise keep your eye on the tooth form and look out for chainsuck (when the lower strand of chain fails to leave the chainring and is "sucked" up inot he ring and jams).

Other things that can cause dodgy shifting:

• Someone has moved the limit screws on the mech! By someone, it is usually YOU.
• The B- screw has moved or need properly adjusting. Look it up on YouTube
• Dirty cables; it is amazing how many shifting problems can be cured with a set of new cables (inner & outer).
• Bent mech arm; it does not have to be bent by much. They can be straightened, sometimes even cured!
• Bent mech hanger. With the advent of 11 & 12 - speed gears, the lower mech arm has got closer and closer to the ground and more in harm's way of rocks and roots. It doesn't take much of a bang to either bend the mech or even the mech hanger. Bent mech arms are easy to see (easier, at least). But bent mech hangers can be impossible to see with the naked eye. But the effect of even a small bend can be out of all proportion to the degree of misalignment. The cure is simple and very cheap for the LBS to fix. They will definitely have a mech hanger guage and alignment tool and using it will take ten minutes to use and fix your mech hanger. YouTube it. Consider buying your own mech hanger guage and alignment tool. It will give a lifetime of service and save you time and money in the meantime. Or change to ten-speed transmission!

Later Edit: Check the the mech is securely bolted to the mech hanger, ditto hanger to the frame. Please don't ask me how I know this!

 

[ozzybmx]

Howly cow ......... I have repaired a poorly shifting mates EMTB on the trail with a multi-tool. It's normally always a bent hanger or bent cage, that you can get near enough by eye, and fine tune with the thumb screw. Fix properly at home with the alignment tool.

Take it to another shop. This shop is either clueless, or cannot be arsed to spent the time to fix it.

Even the cheap hanger alignment tools from Ali do the job. My 15yr old Park Tool one has gone shiny, in peak demolition days when my boys rode, that thing was used 4 times a week

 

[steve_sordy]

Yep, Parktool is the one I have, brilliant bit of kity. Easy to use.

 

[Astro66]

Yep, Parktool is the one I have, brilliant bit of kity. Easy to use.

I have the aliexpress one. It works brilliantly. But it has sat idle since changing to SRAM tramsmission.

Only issues with the SRAM transmission, has been bent cages, that once again I repaired by eye on the trail, and micro adjusted perfect. Then fixed properly at home.

I also keep a spare cage at home. But in the 12 months I've had it. Never used it.

 

[steve_sordy]

I have the aliexpress one. It works brilliantly. But it has sat idle since changing to SRAM tramsmission.

Only issues with the SRAM transmission, has been bent cages, that once again I repaired by eye on the trail, and micro adjusted perfect. Then fixed properly at home.

I also keep a spare cage at home. But in the 12 months I've had it. Never used it.

After many years of Shimano transmission, my next Bike (from tomorrow!!!!) will be Sram . So your post was good to see.

 

[Scott_123]

If they did all that work and the bike now is un-rideable where before it worked, then the bike shop has mechanics that don’t know what they are doing. If you are not capable of fixing it yourself take it to a reputable bike shop and have them start over. Make sure they document what they found and how it was fixed. After the work has been completed take your invoice over to the last bike shop and negotiate some type of labor reimbursement. You shouldn’t be on the hook to train their employees, that is the owners responsibility.

 

[irie]

Take the bike to another shop and ask for it to be put right, but do not name the shop that has screwed up your bike because they might know each other.

Pay the bill then take the bill to the shop that screwed up your bike. If they give you a (partial) refund on the work they did then fine.

Either way, walk away and never go there again.

Ride your bike, have fun.

Life's too short.

 

[skizzian]

if it was indexing fine before the new chain and cassette it should index fine now
someone has either bent something or is 'king clueless and been trigger happy adjusting

 

[sjturner2112]

If the chain was worn beyond the 0.5% mark, then chances are the cassette and chainring were then also worn, although shifting okay, you would then need to change all 3, only if the chain is slightly worn, you can change it without changing out the other bits, otherwise you'll have gears popping out etc.

I'd ask how worn was your chain?

chain was very worn, I think far past the mark. OK, well, this is what I was asking. I do not know that much about drivetrains and wear, but I have always been super careful to softshift, etc., but there are times when I am out of gear, and goign up a hill, and I am really putting the motor torque on the chain, so that is probably what stretched it out. Man this sucks if I am going to have change all of my drivetrain bits out every 8-10 months.

 

[sjturner2112]

if it was indexing fine before the new chain and cassette it should index fine now
someone has either bent something or is 'king clueless and been trigger happy adjusting

yeah, it was indexing perfectly when i brought it in. Zero issues.

 

[sjturner2112]

Take the bike to another shop and ask for it to be put right, but do not name the shop that has screwed up your bike because they might know each other.

Pay the bill then take the bill to the shop that screwed up your bike. If they give you a (partial) refund on the work they did then fine.

Either way, walk away and never go there again.

Ride your bike, have fun.

Life's too short.

oh, yeah, there is no naming and shaming here, I just want to ride my bike. That is my goal. There is no way the first shop will provide a a refund of their work, and I do n't care, I just want my bike back in working order.

 

[sjturner2112]

If they did all that work and the bike now is un-rideable where before it worked, then the bike shop has mechanics that don’t know what they are doing. If you are not capable of fixing it yourself take it to a reputable bike shop and have them start over. Make sure they document what they found and how it was fixed. After the work has been completed take your invoice over to the last bike shop and negotiate some type of labor reimbursement. You shouldn’t be on the hook to train their employees, that is the owners responsibility.

The person doing the adjusting was the shop owner or manager, I believe, unsure. I just will not go back them. I will get the new shop, who I know for a fact is competent, to document just for FYI reasons. So I know. I had a Trek rail experience the same issues from another LBS, and once the messed it up, they could never get it back right, it never shifted ok again, and I had to sell it in frustration. My experience, right now, is that LBSes screw up your bike, and ar enot competent with tricky / subtle nuanced fixes. It's really frustrating. If this is the current state of LBS, no wonder they are all going out of business.

 

[Adyzakydany]

chain was very worn, I think far past the mark. OK, well, this is what I was asking. I do not know that much about drivetrains and wear, but I have always been super careful to softshift, etc., but there are times when I am out of gear, and goign up a hill, and I am really putting the motor torque on the chain, so that is probably what stretched it out. Man this sucks if I am going to have change all of my drivetrain bits out every 8-10 months.

an excessively work chian will wear out your cassettesand chainring, changing just the chain will make the shifting worse, you need to change all 3. Shocked your LBS didnt know this...

 

[RickBullotta]

Sounds like an unqualified mechanic worked on it. I stopped trusting the underpaid, undertrained stoners at the LBS decades ago.

 

[sjturner2112]

an excessively work chian will wear out your cassettesand chainring, changing just the chain will make the shifting worse, you need to change all 3. Shocked your LBS didnt know this...

yeah, i have no problem buying those parts and having them fitted, i just want the bike working again. If they were all needed, then i would have appreciated a straightforward "well need to replace all these items, and then it will shift perfectly" that would have been fine, and i would have been back on my bike 2 weeks ago.

I really appreciate all the responses, they really helped me sort this mess out. Thanks folks.

 

[ozzybmx]

I know its not for everyone but a bit of YouTubing and a few simple tools could save you hours on running back and forward to a bike shop, never mind the cost and frustration involved. Then you have zero riding downtime and a bit of self satisfaction that you did it yourself.

A cassette removal tool & chain whip can swap out a cassette, then a chain breaker to swap a chain. YouTube has a million videos.

Buy the same cassette to swap out then lay the old & new chains on a flat bench and pop out the pin to make it the same length.

You literally have changed nothing on you gear indexing but now have a new chain and cassette. Everything should work as it was.

 

[sjturner2112]

I know its not for everyone but a bit of YouTubing and a few simple tools could save you hours on running back and forward to a bike shop, never mind the cost and frustration involved. Then you have zero riding downtime and a bit of self satisfaction that you did it yourself.

A cassette removal tool & chain whip can swap out a cassette, then a chain breaker to swap a chain. YouTube has a million videos.

Buy the same cassette to swap out then lay the old & new chains on a flat bench and pop out the pin to make it the same length.

You literally have changed nothing on you gear indexing but now have a new chain and cassette. Everything should work as it was.

I agree and i wanted to purchase those tools, but they do cost some money. like 60-80 for both. i just didnt think this was going to be so much hassle, and now i am replacing my entire drivetrain. it seems crazy.

 

[Bad Mechanic]

FYI, eMTBs wear their chains a lot faster than normal mountain bikes. That's why it's important to regular check your chain for wear with a gauge or ruler, and change the chain as soon as it's worn.

If you want more longevity, either go with Shimano Link Glide (cheap) or high end SRAM (expensive).

 

[High Rock Ruti]

(I am in the US) SO I took my EMTB into my local LBS for a shock and fork lowers service, and to get new cranks and tires. A week later they call me back to pick up my bike, but they tell me the chain is worn out. I will note here that the bike was shifting perfectly when i took it in. SO I say, ok, put on a new chain. I arrive to pick up the bike, and they inform me that it doesn't shift well now with the new chain, and that is because it needs a new cassette because "cassettes wear with the chain" - I say, well, ok, this is now getting unexpectedly expensive, but I guess if it's worn, I will believe what they say and get it replaced as well. I will note here that the drivetrain was 8 months old when I brought it in. They quote me a price for a deore basic 12 speed 10-51 t cassette (shimano microspline) it's pretty high, so I say I think I can acquire the OG 7100 casstte for a better price, and so I do, (it's real, it's not counterfeit, it's not alibaba or anything like that, it's from another online US LBS). Took a few days to get in. In the meantime, my bike is really unrideable, stays in maybe 1 gear. I take the XT 7100 cassette over, they put it on, the mechanic can't get it to shift all that well. He rides it around a couple times, works on it, and then tells me that it works, it's shifting "ok" but he thinks the derailleur is a little bent. SO I say, ok, can I just get a new hanger, can it be fixed, what's the deal? He tells me I would need a new derailleur but it's good enough to ride. I say ok, I'll keep all of that in mind. I drive the bike back to my house, but cannot ride it until Sunday, so it sits in the garage.

So Sunday I am able to give it some attention, and I am thinking about a ride since it's been like 3 weeks now since all of this started. I go to ride it out of the driveway and it's unrideable. SHifts won't take, shifts pop out of gear, the chain skips all over the place, it's the same mess it was before. So I put it back in the garage, I am pretty pissed at this point. I had a perfectly fine shifting, lovely expensive EMTB 3 weeks ago, and now I have godawful mess of skipping gears etc. I resigned myself to ordering a new derailleur because I don't know what else to do. I don't what was accomplished with this entire, unexpected drivetrain replacement that was previously functioning perfectly, like what to think about this, or the LBS. Should I be upset with the LBS? I feel like I should take the bike on Monday to another shop, and get a second opinion, and a possible fix.? SHould I take it back to the first LBS and ask them to please continue to repair the drivetrain until it actual works? Or should i go elsewhere? I am also confused why they kept returning it to me in an unrideable condition, twice, telling me it was a little 'funky' but 'ok' - what do I make of all this? Is this typical? Meanwhile, going on week 4 without the bike in the middle of the best part of the riding season.

High Rock Ruti

My chains and cassettes last between 450 and 650 miles occasionally I can get 2 chains to 1 cassette. My experience (only), e bikes eat chains and cassettes I do not take good care of them but with nearly a horsepower (750 watts) Bosch CXR 650 watts the wear seems logical/reasonable. I typically break two chains a year, I always carry spare master links and a chain (the chains never break at the master link BTW), when the chain breaks a second time, new chain. Cassettes start jumping cogs in the middle 6 through 9 ish, (where the chain spends most of it's time) then time for new cassette. I always buy matching brand chains and cassettes, but always the lowest ie M4100 the bike beats up the drive train either way, so I'd rather save the money and change more often.

Warm Regards Ruti

 

[Pentti]

so I'd rather save the money and change more often.

I'm the opposite!
I prefer to buy expensive chain and replace less often (and save wear on cassette).
I've found Eagle X01 chain costs about twice GX chain but lasts twice as long, although in my experience they don't snap, just wear (elongate).

 

[ValActionT 750]

(I am in the US) SO I took my EMTB into my local LBS for a shock and fork lowers service, and to get new cranks and tires. A week later they call me back to pick up my bike, but they tell me the chain is worn out. I will note here that the bike was shifting perfectly when i took it in. SO I say, ok, put on a new chain. I arrive to pick up the bike, and they inform me that it doesn't shift well now with the new chain, and that is because it needs a new cassette because "cassettes wear with the chain" - I say, well, ok, this is now getting unexpectedly expensive, but I guess if it's worn, I will believe what they say and get it replaced as well. I will note here that the drivetrain was 8 months old when I brought it in. They quote me a price for a deore basic 12 speed 10-51 t cassette (shimano microspline) it's pretty high, so I say I think I can acquire the OG 7100 casstte for a better price, and so I do, (it's real, it's not counterfeit, it's not alibaba or anything like that, it's from another online US LBS). Took a few days to get in. In the meantime, my bike is really unrideable, stays in maybe 1 gear. I take the XT 7100 cassette over, they put it on, the mechanic can't get it to shift all that well. He rides it around a couple times, works on it, and then tells me that it works, it's shifting "ok" but he thinks the derailleur is a little bent. SO I say, ok, can I just get a new hanger, can it be fixed, what's the deal? He tells me I would need a new derailleur but it's good enough to ride. I say ok, I'll keep all of that in mind. I drive the bike back to my house, but cannot ride it until Sunday, so it sits in the garage.

So Sunday I am able to give it some attention, and I am thinking about a ride since it's been like 3 weeks now since all of this started. I go to ride it out of the driveway and it's unrideable. SHifts won't take, shifts pop out of gear, the chain skips all over the place, it's the same mess it was before. So I put it back in the garage, I am pretty pissed at this point. I had a perfectly fine shifting, lovely expensive EMTB 3 weeks ago, and now I have godawful mess of skipping gears etc. I resigned myself to ordering a new derailleur because I don't know what else to do. I don't what was accomplished with this entire, unexpected drivetrain replacement that was previously functioning perfectly, like what to think about this, or the LBS. Should I be upset with the LBS? I feel like I should take the bike on Monday to another shop, and get a second opinion, and a possible fix.? SHould I take it back to the first LBS and ask them to please continue to repair the drivetrain until it actual works? Or should i go elsewhere? I am also confused why they kept returning it to me in an unrideable condition, twice, telling me it was a little 'funky' but 'ok' - what do I make of all this? Is this typical? Meanwhile, going on week 4 without the bike in the middle of the best part of the riding season.

A simple and cheap tool will let you know the condition of one’s chain and conversely your drivetrain in general.

 

[Montana St Alum]

Yes, you should be pissed.
Yes, they should all be in chains in a dungeon.
Start over at a decent shop.

8 months seems pretty short for a Deore cassette, as they are pretty sturdy. It seems a bit short for a chain as well, unless you're running a DJI in boost all the time.
Get a chain wear checker. Swap out before they stretch and you'll save cassettes/chainrings. Get a spare derailleur hanger. A tool to bend the hanger back is very handy as well, as sometimes even new hangers can be off. There are plenty of YouTubes on bicycle maintenance, including lower leg servicing and shock servicing. If you can do that yourself, it saves a lot of money. Servicing kits are cheap, but you'll need some specialized tools (which aren't as expensive as a service, like a decent torque wrench and whatever chamferless socket fits + fluid and seals). Replacing chains, cassettes and chainrings is a simple task, and setting up shifting is likewise easy and there are plenty of YT's that explain the process.

How much torque does your motor put out and where do you ride?