Have Avinox given us a good thing (or not)?

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DylanJM said:
You're making a big assumption that Bosch, Specialized, etc. don't use the sensors in the motor itself to acheieve the same thing. It's entirely possible to use the motor sensors to detect wheelslip.
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They do actually. It's just that they are too indirect to provide precise traction control, as gear selection, gear shifting, gear range, front and rear sprocket sizes, etc. all introduce imprecision as to what is actually happening at the rear wheel. An MGU would be a step in the right direction, but nothing beats a speed sensor at the wheel. You can get away without it at 85NM, but at 150NM, it's pretty much essential.
 
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I find the regulations pretty confusing to define correctly.

Speed limits and power rules explained​

Continuous rated power vs peak power​

The legal metric is typically maximum continuous rated power — not the short peak output you see in marketing. A motor labelled “500 W peak” might still be compliant if its continuous rating is ≤ 250 W and the assist profile meets the cutoff rules. Look for the continuous power figure on the spec sheet or the manufacturer’s declaration.
 
skizzian said:
can anybody open this link?
www.avinox-ebike.com
I'm wondering where these guys got the specs from
ebike-mtb.com

New Avinox M2S and M2 Motor System on Test: The Rise of DJI?

Just how capable are the new Avinox M2S and M2 motor systems? Our trail test puts the latest Avinox drive unit to the proof.
ebike-mtb.com ebike-mtb.com
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What bit do you want ?

1000028427.webp
 
skizzian said:
do they state a continuous power for the M2S with the 700wh battery?
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The data I provided was for the Amflow PX. The point that is important is Point 3. It states.

"The Avinox M2S Drive Unit has a rated power of 250W, with a peak output power of up to 1500W in Trail, Turbo, Auto and Boost modes and a maximum torque of 150N·m in Boost mode. Compared to the Avinox M1 (peak power 1000W, maximum torque 120N·m), power and torque are increased by approximately 45.9% and 21.6%, respectively. Actual output performance may vary depending on usage scenarios, riding modes, and system status."

1776854043942.webp


The battery has no impact on rated power. It only impacts peak power.
 
Astro66 said:
The data I provided was for the Amflow PX. The point that is important is Point 3. It states.

"The Avinox M2S Drive Unit has a rated power of 250W, with a peak output power of up to 1500W in Trail, Turbo, Auto and Boost modes and a maximum torque of 150N·m in Boost mode. Compared to the Avinox M1 (peak power 1000W, maximum torque 120N·m), power and torque are increased by approximately 45.9% and 21.6%, respectively. Actual output performance may vary depending on usage scenarios, riding modes, and system status."

View attachment 182736

The battery has no impact on rated power. It only impacts peak power
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I'm not sure that's the case - if rated = continuous = nominal = Regular,
and it's true the 700wh battery has better thermal regulation - this is why I'm trying to get info from Avinox themselves...
 
skizzian said:
I'm not sure that's the case - if rated = continuous = nominal = Regular,
and it's true the 700wh battery has better thermal regulation - this is why I'm trying to get info from Avinox themselves...
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A motors rating is not linked to the power supply. If you connect a 1kW motor to a supply capable of 10kW or 5kW. It has no impact on the motor's rating. It's still a 1kW motor. The additional power the supply can generate, just means you can over current the motor, with more current.

But this just means the motor will overheat quicker.
 
Astro66 said:
A motors rating is not linked to the power supply. If you connect a 1kW motor to a supply capable of 10kW. It has no impact on the motor's rating. It's still a 1kW motor. The additional power the supply can generate, just means you can over current the motor, with more current.

But this just means the motor will overheat quicker.
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in that case 'rating' isn't the same as 'continuous'
 
skizzian said:
in that case 'rating' isn't the same as 'continuous'
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Sort of. You can run a 1kW rated motor continuously at 1kW and it should never overheat. But as soon as you run the motor above 1kW, it will start to overheat.

How long before the insulation starts to melt is purely based on time, ambient temperature and amount of power above it's rated value.

But any motor system that has over-temperature protection, normally uses a thermistor in the motor to monitor temperature and de-rate the motor controller when the motor gets too hot. The new M2S motor apparently has a thermistor in the motor. Where the M1 only calculated the heating in the motor controller. I got that from Rob's video.
 
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patdam said:
like bosch who provided 600W and little more each year. Now 750W. While being compliant with The EU's rules of 250W, like every other motors companies, who followed bosch. That hasn't disturb you at this time. Why it's an worries today ?
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Because 1500W isn't a "little more each year" it's double Bosch's 750W in one go!
 
Astro66 said:
What a load of rubbish. My M2S Teewing Flux bike is currently undergoing NSW certification. If they deem it illegal. It's illegal. If they deem it legal. Then it's legal. And to be legal in NSW, it must meet Class 1 regulations. It has nothing to do with what I think or do.

And rather that just spreading hearsay. Here is the evidence below. It's super disappointing the stuff being posted here. No wonder there is such a strong Anti Ebike lobby.

And it's tiring and boring fact checking all the posts people are just inventing in this thread.

View attachment 182712
www.pushys.com.au

Teewing Flux One A Cosmic Black

Pushys is your online bike store - the best & the largest bike online store. Buy bikes online at Pushys - the most trusted online bikes store.
www.pushys.com.au www.pushys.com.au

View attachment 182716
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My statement is rubbish?

In the US, for example, class I ebikes are limited to 750W max and 20mph assist in most states, but not all.. and here's the catch. Some states allow 1000W and a couple aren't regulated. There's no universal, federal law to codify the US market.

For example, Amflow sold bikes in the US with M1 motors and Avinox at the time allowed 1000W "boost" 30 seconds at a time. Later they released a software update to allow full-time 1000W. I don't have an Avinox TBF, but I wonder what the fine print of the user agreement said when registering and/or updating the software. Cause 1000W is illegal in most US states.

Now practically, I don't think its as big an issue as some folks make it out to be. Hell, even if they banned eMTBs I'd still ride cause there's absolutely zero enforcement locally and that's not going to change IMO.

In Australia it may be perfectly legal if they follow the EU pedelec laws, i.e. 250W continuous power and 20 mph assist. I'm just pointing out that Avinox is pushing the boundary and not being "conservative" or well within the law (universally). Folks can VPN to skirt local regulations, 1500W on tap and Class III on the fly. I'd totally would have bought an Avinox equipped bike, if there was a solid enduro bike option (not pre-order) a few months ago... besides Crestline ($$$). I can also be real with "issues" they may be presenting to the market/industry/consumers in my perspective.
 
as an aside, Avinox have a firmware locked 750W M2S to meet UCI racing rules.
that might be a sensible buy if you're in the States...
 
skizzian said:
I'm not sure that's the case - if rated = continuous = nominal = Regular,
and it's true the 700wh battery has better thermal regulation - this is why I'm trying to get info from Avinox themselves...
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This is a game of marketing and legalese... Avinox claims their motors have a rated power of 250W and that's in compliance with EU regulations for pedelecs limiting continuous power to 250W (thermal). They also claim a peak of 150Nm and 1500W. However, testing shows with a 700 wh battery the M2S can effectively continuously output 1500W.

On Amflow's US site, when they released the PX/PR they didn't "showcase" the 1500W peak figure. Instead they focused on 150 Nm... I guarantee that was on purpose. IYKYK, folks are aware of the class leading power/torque levels Avinox has been pushing out. No point raising attention to 1500W power, when that may not be illegal in certain parts of the world.

*edit* I don't doubt Avinox is in compliance with EU regulations and I stated that prior and its a shortcoming of how the regulation was written for pedelecs. Instead of limiting mechanical output, whether continuous or maximum they chose to use a thermal requirement often used to spec motors to operate safely and without loss in performance.
 
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bmwpowere36m3 said:
This is a game of marketing and legalese... Avinox claims their motors have a rated power of 250W and that's in compliance with EU regulations for pedelecs limiting continuous power to 250W (thermal). They also claim a peak of 150Nm and 1500W. However, testing shows with a 700 wh battery the M2S can effectively continuously output 1500W.

On Amflow's US site, when they released the PX/PR they didn't "showcase" the 1500W peak figure. Instead they focused on 150 Nm... I guarantee that was on purpose. IYKYK, folks are aware of the class leading power/torque levels Avinox has been pushing out. No point raising attention to 1500W power, when that may not be illegal in certain parts of the world.
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Yep - that's my take on it too...
 
I agree with @Mikerb that all this hype about the "power dominance" of avinox motor has made this forum very boring. The power that any of the motors in the market actually offers, is more than enough for an assisted bike.
There is no need for more power ar torque, as long as we see ebikes as assisted bicycles.
The time spent discussing something that is not needed is the time lost on talking about "things related to cycling" instead of those really boring (well, to people who likes bikes) "things related to motors".
One thing that I just cna't get is: how a motor with motor with more power can make someone "ride faster" when there is a limit speed of only 25 or 32 km/h?
With an old motor that provides 70 Nm and @250 W, this 66 old weekend warrior here can climb any 36% steep technical climb. Not too fast, I agree, but, what technical - and thus fun climb - can be ridden at "fast" speeds like 25 or 32? no climb that is any fun to clear, would be doable as fast as the limit speed. So, I come to the conclusion that folks that hype the avinox 1500W 150 Nm really like is the ability to climb on paved roads, while grinding drivetrains and wasting knobby tyres.
 
Seems to come on up frequently, EU 250w rule test relates to the thermal output for a brushed motor.

Motors have delivered continously more than 250w long before avinox entered the market but arbitrarily it seems shimano/bosch have the 'right' power and anything more is bad.
 
ZR1 said:
Seems to come on up frequently, EU 250w rule test relates to the thermal output for a brushed motor.

Motors have delivered continously more than 250w long before avinox entered the market but arbitrarily it seems shimano/bosch have the 'right' power and anything more is bad.
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I think there’s every chance that the way e-bikes are tested and rated will change once regulators catch up with the fact that motor technology has changed too, but hey might never happen.

I think what does need to happen to ensure compliance with whatever regulations are in place in your country is enforcement of the anti-tampering bit where it’s mentioned, VPNs are too easy a way to circumvent them on the Avinox.

I said god knows how many pages back, if import bodies deem Avinox motored e-bikes as complaint with the law they are there to police, then they’re compliant, but if they’re so easy to ‘tamper’ with to increase performance then it’s a grey area, in my humble opinion.

As usual with questions posed like in the OP, the answer isn’t usually straightforward. It’s probably fair to say that they’ve done both a good thing whilst at the same time done a less good thing. All opinion after that falls into one of those two areas, end of really.
 
Fangs2k said:
VPNs are too easy a way to circumvent them on the Avinox.
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One of AMflows selling points is its promotion of the availability of VPNs to enable its customers to exceed local Pedelec power limits. In other words (not to put too fine a point on it) to break the law (in the UK anyway).
 
irie said:
One of AMflows selling points is its promotion of the availability of VPNs to enable its customers to exceed local Pedelec power limits. In other words (not to put too fine a point on it) to break the law (in the UK anyway).
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Bro what?! When did amflow promote that you can use vpn to make your bike illegal? This is complete bs.

Every single motor right now can be very very easily derestricted. Most of you guys have already done it, but sure let’s just blame Avinox.
 
Brawwp said:
Bro what?! When did amflow promote that you can use vpn to make your bike illegal? This is complete bs.

Every single motor right now can be very very easily derestricted. Most of you guys have already done it, but sure let’s just blame Avinox.
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This is what it's like:

1776886001819.webp
 
Brawwp said:
Every single motor right now can be very very easily derestricted. Most of you guys have already done it, but sure let’s just blame Avinox.
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The only difference is that with Avinox, no one else profits from it—everyone does it themselves.
 
Brawwp said:
What? I don’t understand this at all.
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For example, with Bosch, you can use the services of someone who has access to Bosch service software, and that costs you some money. Or, in the past, purchasing a chip also cost money. In both cases, someone else makes money from the derestricting process.
With Avinox, the user handles it themselves, so no one else makes any money from the derestricting process.
 
Mlok said:
For example, with Bosch, you can use the services of someone who has access to Bosch service software, and that costs you some money. Or, in the past, purchasing a chip also cost money. In both cases, someone else makes money from the derestricting process.
With Avinox, the user handles it themselves, so no one else makes any money from the derestricting process.
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So it’s ok if someone else profits? Lmao. Dude this thread is insane.

Well I had to pay for my vpn subscription so I’m good then…
 
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