Have Avinox given us a good thing (or not)?

[irie]

It is easy to see that for the motor to deliver 400 W, the rider only needs to supply approximately:

1. Avinox – 50 W
2. Shimano/Specialized – ~75 W
3. Bosch – ~120 W

For a motor output of 600 W, the required rider input is roughly:

1. Avinox – 75 W
2. Shimano/Specialized – ~120 W
3. Bosch – ~200 W

Not difficult to see that pedal pressure is rapidly becoming a throttle increasingly disconnected from rider physical input.

 

[nowayfra]

Lets not forget that besides the new powerful motor we also learned that seemingly Avinox will not level up the previous generation with improved functionality. We got no range extender for the M1 till now. While one can argue that this might be caused by hardware limitations we also see that pure software functions like custom assist modes are not supported for the M1, which is a conscious decision against the M1 made by Avinox.

 

[Coiler]

Yes they did, they pushed emtb's 5 years forward. Now everyone has to step up to deliver beter products or lose end be forgotten...

 

[Weeksy]

Yes they did, they pushed emtb's 5 years forward. Now everyone has to step up to deliver better products or lose end be forgotten...

better ?

 

[Coiler]

better ?

Yea one of those guys correcting everyone but not adding anything to the discussion doing so?

 

[Weeksy]

Yea one of those guys correcting everyone but not adding anything to the discussion doing so?

Well my question is, what do other manufacturers need to do that's better then ? What are you quantifying as 'better' ?

I don't necessarily (or at all actually) equate better with more powerful. That's not better to me. I want better sealing, better warranty, better spares/rebuild process.... THAT's what i'd consider moving the game on for the better.
Imagine if you bought a car and it broke down and they said "nah mate, can't get the bits"... You'd go mental. Or close, a KTM 450 "Nah, we can't do gearboxes, you need a new engine"... We'd all be going bonkers.
Yet Ebikes manage to get away with it somehow and blokes like @Bearing Man can't fix certain motors even though it'd be within his skills... if he had the parts.

 

[patdam]

Eh bien, ma question est : que doivent faire les autres fabricants qui est mieux ? Qu’est-ce que tu quantifies par « meilleur » ?

Je ne compare pas forcément (ou pas du tout du tout) « meilleur » à plus puissant. Ce n’est pas mieux pour moi. Je veux une meilleure étanchéité, une meilleure garantie, des pièces détachées/un meilleur processus de reconstruction... C’est ce que je considérerais pour faire avancer le jeu pour le mieux.
Imagine si tu achètes une voiture et qu’elle tombe en panne et qu’ils disent « non mec, je n’arrive pas à avoir les morceaux »... Tu deviendrais fou. Ou presque, une KTM 450 « non, on ne peut pas faire de boîtes de vitesses, il vous faut un nouveau moteur »... On deviendrait tous fous.
Pourtant, les vélos électriques s’en sortent d’une manière ou d’une autre, et des types comme [UTILISATEUR=1308]@Bearing Homme[/UTILISATEUR] ne peuvent pas réparer certains moteurs même si ce serait dans ses compétences... s’il avait les pièces.

???? C’est que BOSCH le fait depuis le début, ils ne remplacent le moteur qu’en garantie. Je n’ai jamais entendu ceux qui deviennent fous. Mieux encore, BOSCH est signalé comme « référence ».

 

[Weeksy]

???? C’est que BOSCH le fait depuis le début, ils ne remplacent le moteur qu’en garantie. Je n’ai jamais entendu ceux qui deviennent fous. Mieux encore, BOSCH est signalé comme « référence ».

Mod Edit : That's what Bosch has been doing from the start; they only replace the motor under warranty. I've never heard of anyone going crazy over it. Even better, Bosch is considered a "reference" brand.

But even if Bosch themselves only replace the motor, at least the parts are available for 3rd parties to do so.

I can see the not too distant future where your bike breaks and due to so many motor issues you're sitting there for 2 months waiting for a new motor...

 

[igro_les]

What doesn't make sense is why would anyone need 150Nm & 1500w to ride up or down single track, I only see riders using that power going up a fire-roads, so in the end you saved time on fire-road climb I have to agree that I don't want to see limits put on the motor manufactures, but they should be focusing on designing and making smaller sized motors & batteries.

Do they use it, though? Taking into consideration that the bike cuts power above 25km/h, your fire-road would need to be something like 60% steep to actually need 1500w. In the real world, half of that power is already plenty and, in a lot of situations, enough for the rear wheel to loose traction and therefore be unusable.

I think most people don't need that much power or torque. Brands have entered an arms' race and reviewers are happy because then you can offer something "new and improved" to potential customers and viewers. But for real usage in actual trails (and fire-roads), most current motors are already overkill.

 

[Paulquattro]

???? C’est que BOSCH le fait depuis le début, ils ne remplacent le moteur qu’en garantie. Je n’ai jamais entendu ceux qui deviennent fous. Mieux encore, BOSCH est signalé comme « référence ».

Mod Edit : That's what Bosch has been doing from the start; they only replace the motor under warranty. I've never heard of anyone going crazy over it. Even better, Bosch is considered a "reference" brand.

What has this got to do with Coiler saying that DJi have pushed EMTBs forward 5 yrs basically because of a bump in power which lets be honest any of them can do with a software tweak ,
Weeksy has already answered why this is complete tosh and not whats needed ,
And i could not have put it better myself .

 

[mr.skywalker]

I still don't understand how companies are getting round the 250w nominal power with things like Avinox motors... It makes no sense at all to me.

Its the same on pretty much all electric motors. For example the DIY motorcycle conversion kit like QS138 is rated- at 3000w but there a tons of people running them at 30,000w with no issues and even the controllers they com with are pushing 14,000-21,000w. Nominal was always a silly choice in regulation method. It would be like testing a car at what hp it would run at without overheating without coolant, it would be 5-10x less than it actually puts down on the dyno

 

[skizzian]

Its the same on pretty much all electric motors. For example the DIY motorcycle conversion kit like QS138 is rated- at 3000w but there a tons of people running them at 30,000w with no issues and even the controllers they com with are pushing 14,000-21,000w. Nominal was always a silly choice in regulation method. It would be like testing a car at what hp it would run at without overheating without coolant, it would be 5-10x less than it actually puts down on the dyno

is it 'nominal' though?
An EAPC:

• must have pedals that can be used to propel it
• can have more than 2 wheels, for example a tricycle

It can be propelled up to 15.5mph without pedalling but only if it’s been approved.

Its electric motor:

• must have a ‘continuous rated power’ output of no more than 250 watts
• must not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling at more than 15.5 miles per hour (mph)

it seems like it should be capped at 250 watts from the Govt. website

Riding an electric bike: the rules

Electric bikes meeting the EAPC regulations can be ridden on the road without being taxed, licensed or insured.

www.gov.uk

 

[Coiler]

Well my question is, what do other manufacturers need to do that's better then ? What are you quantifying as 'better' ?

I don't necessarily (or at all actually) equate better with more powerful. That's not better to me. I want better sealing, better warranty, better spares/rebuild process.... THAT's what i'd consider moving the game on for the better.
Imagine if you bought a car and it broke down and they said "nah mate, can't get the bits"... You'd go mental. Or close, a KTM 450 "Nah, we can't do gearboxes, you need a new engine"... We'd all be going bonkers.
Yet Ebikes manage to get away with it somehow and blokes like @Bearing Man can't fix certain motors even though it'd be within his skills... if he had the parts.

Whole system integration, using of an encoder type speed sensor, 12A charger. Two years later and the competition is still just reacting and still falling behind. Is this not enough even if you can the motor on 750/100? For me that's enough.

 

[mr.skywalker]

is it 'nominal' though?
An EAPC:

• must have pedals that can be used to propel it
• can have more than 2 wheels, for example a tricycle

It can be propelled up to 15.5mph without pedalling but only if it’s been approved.

Its electric motor:

• must have a ‘continuous rated power’ output of no more than 250 watts
• must not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling at more than 15.5 miles per hour (mph)

it seems like it should be capped at 250 watts from the Govt. website

Riding an electric bike: the rules

Electric bikes meeting the EAPC regulations can be ridden on the road without being taxed, licensed or insured.

www.gov.uk

Yes that rating is the nominal rating which is what it tested at, they dont test at higher levels and its end users who find what limits are on those. When the motors 1st came out they had pretty small controllers but over time they upgraded as users found they could push more but agian that in dirtbikes where power is never steady or on the street where the battery would be depleated before overheating.

For emtb sort of the same, they may handle 250w indefinitely but due to battery restrictions on size and that power is rarely held high it is a realistic number. I have seen a review where someone overheated the new M2S in full power mode so it sounds like they are actually pushing the motor at the high power byt the time it was at ~50% SOC which gives it merit that is actually a 250w nominal motor as it can handle the peak power for even 400wh of usage.

If the concern is that someone can use over a certain power at any time then a power upper limit needs to be set but if the concern is just the average assistance is as high performing athlete then the current rating works. Maybe that makes sense?

 

[Coiler]

What has this got to do with Coiler saying that DJi have pushed EMTBs forward 5 yrs basically because of a bump in power which lets be honest any of them can do with a software tweak ,
Weeksy has already answered why this is complete tosh and not whats needed ,
And i could not have put it better myself .

Not true at all. Didn't say a word about power as nearly nobody needs it. Everything around it was way ahead of the curve, mahle is the only company that has some of the functions in m40

 

[skizzian]

Yes that rating is the nominal rating which is what it tested at, they dont test at higher levels and its end users who find what limits are on those. When the motors 1st came out they had pretty small controllers but over time they upgraded as users found they could push more but agian that in dirtbikes where power is never steady or on the street where the battery would be depleated before overheating.

For emtb sort of the same, they may handle 250w indefinitely but due to battery restrictions on size and that power is rarely held high it is a realistic number. I have seen a review where someone overheated the new M2S in full power mode so it sounds like they are actually pushing the motor at the high power byt the time it was at ~50% SOC which gives it merit that is actually a 250w nominal motor as it can handle the peak power for even 400wh of usage.

If the concern is that someone can use over a certain power at any time then a power upper limit needs to be set but if the concern is just the average assistance is as high performing athlete then the current rating works. Maybe that makes sense?

So they design the system to have a ‘continuous rated power’ of 1300 Watts in Turbo mode
but then say it's only been nominally tested to 250W ‘continuous rated power’
so therefore it's compliant with having a ‘continuous rated power’ output of no more than 250 watts.

I'm having a logic fail with this one...

 

[mr.skywalker]

So they design the system to have a ‘continuous rated power’ of 1300 Watts in Turbo mode
but then say it's only been nominally tested to 250W ‘continuous rated power’
so therefore it's compliant with having a ‘continuous rated power’ output of no more than 250 watts.

I'm having a logic fail with this one...

It's a continuously accessible power, not a that the motor can handle it at 100% cycle time. Continuous power is what power it can hold up to with no limit in time or wh that it can without overheating. Two complete different conditions hice the very different values.

Another reference would be welders, they spell out what the duty cyle is in a 10min window, usually 30-60%. That is the same as the peak number where the number you get when you pull the trigger is set but you can't just use it continuous or it will overheat.

In the ebike case the bms and motor monitor temps so if you get it hot it can go into limp mode or shut down. Same thing on surrons, they claim peak numbers but if you actually run them under full throttle they overheat and drop into eco mode until motor or battery drops back into safe temps.

 

[mr.skywalker]

So they design the system to have a ‘continuous rated power’ of 1300 Watts in Turbo mode

Also Idk where you see its a continuous rated power of 1300w, everything I see on it is peak power, not continuous. Like I said you can leave it in a mode that access to it continuously, not that it can put that power down continuously

 

[skizzian]

Also Idk where you see its a continuous rated power of 1300w, everything I see on it is peak power, not continuous. Like I said you can leave it in a mode that access to it continuously, not that it can put that power down continuously

plenty of places on the web are quoting it - but DJI seems to have scrubbed Avinox off it's site if you try from the UK...

'while the premium M2S delivers up to 1,300 W & 130 Nm continuously, or 1,500 W & 150 Nm in 30-second bursts.'

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/avinox-reveals-m2-and-m2s-drive-units-with-up-to-1500-w-peak-power.html

 

[Zimmerframe]

plenty of places on the web are quoting it - but DJI seems to have scrubbed Avinox off it's site if you try from the UK...

'while the premium M2S delivers up to 1,300 W & 130 Nm continuously, or 1,500 W & 150 Nm in 30-second bursts.'

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/avinox-reveals-m2-and-m2s-drive-units-with-up-to-1500-w-peak-power.html

That just means without having to press the boost button. But the motor will still downgrade as it gets hot (which will depend on the grade/ambient temperature)

 

[skizzian]

That just means without having to press the boost button. But the motor will still downgrade as it gets hot (which will depend on the grade/ambient temperature)

but it still means it has a ‘continuous rated power’ output of more than 250 watts surely?

 

[mr.skywalker]

but it still means it has a ‘continuous rated power’ output of more than 250 watts surely?

not necessarily the 1300w continuous is very different from "1300w continuous RATED" Like I said there are people who have overheated it is 1300w or 1500w doing big climbs so it isnt a grossly overated system. Maybe it could be rated at 450w or something but how they determine it is Im sure some standardized test and they dont do it higher. Thats why I say its sort of silly but then again they are following the rules technically. I think proper regulation would use both rated and peak numbers but again Im for less not more regulation but I understand how these regulations are used to pass on technicalities

 

[mr.skywalker]

The rated power is just some test criteria the will test and provide data or send in a motor and it is tested at 3rd party. Thats usually all it means that it passed that regulation, nothing more.

 

[Mario Antony]

Not difficult to see that pedal pressure is rapidly becoming a throttle increasingly disconnected from rider physical input.

but no one talks about it. it's all about power this, power that, amazing this and that....
only Alex is saying what matters and being crucified in doing so.

Avinox provide a disconnected ride feel, and rider doesn't need to do much effort to be gratified by amounts of power.
It's not a bad thing, it is what it is.

I only like to know if we set power and assistance low, will we have a Bosch like system?
if not... Avinox is not for me.

 

[Paulquattro]

Not true at all. Didn't say a word about power as nearly nobody needs it. Everything around it was way ahead of the curve, mahle is the only company that has some of the functions in m40

By replying to the thread that's , lets be straight here started off about power blurring the lines from the OP
i could only take from your comment to which you gave no details of what you were actually talking about as a power comment ,
As What else are DJI 5 yrs ahead of the game in that will make everyone else "be forgotten..." in your opinion , your words not mine ,
Because the speed sensor so called better integration and fast charging isn't it in my opinion and is no where near enough for every other motor manufacturer to throw in the towel and close shop .

 

[mr.skywalker]

but no one talks about it. it's all about power this, power that, amazing this and that....
only Alex is saying what matters and being crucified in doing so.

Avinox provide a disconnected ride feel, and rider doesn't need to do much effort to be gratified by amounts of power.
It's not a bad thing, it is what it is.

I only like to know if we set power and assistance low, will we have a Bosch like system?
if not... Avinox is not for me.

Id like to see a standardized head to head test where same power and torque numbers and see which one can get thru extremely technical climbs, thats where the difference really comes out. I had a test area where I struggled to get up one section with cyc x1 pro set to 750w but dropping it to 500w made it easier(I tuned for very progressive power and builds with cadence so smooth pull up in power) and back to back tested with orbea rise and it did the climb even easier even at peak power(pretty close to same 500w) but the traction was easier to modulate without looping it out but the lighter bike probably helped too. If only we could have standard mounts and take the bike out the equation lol. Ive heard the avinox is great on this modulation so thats what interests me more than anything as I plan to get a Amflow PR if I sell my other ebikes or I just need a proper premade full power ebike for a change but shop is crowded with all my business ventures(cyc x1 pro bike, hybrid bike with toseven dm02, transition relay, and 3 analog bikes lol 5 of those bikes are purely for business)

 

[irie]

Yes they did, they pushed emtb's 5 years forward. Now everyone has to step up to deliver beter products or lose end be forgotten...

That ^^^ is blatant bullshit.

Can't see anything functionally unique about AMFlow bikes other than having a motor with the wick turned up with some snazzy software to control the motor.

 

[TQFreak]

Will it be fun to ride with 1500W? Probably ! Would even more power be even more fun? Quite possibly! So why not just buy an e-moto?

Because of electric motorcycles are heavy as hell. I prefer powerful and lightweight electric bicycle rather than powerful and heavy electric motorcycle.

Also 1500w is not even close to electric motorcycle. If it would be like 10kW, then we are talking about.

By the way 1500W is nothing, even 10kW in Avinox sized motor is not a problem at all. The new INNOTRACE controller for Bafang M560 motor can deliver such power.

 

[Coiler]

That ^^^ is blatant bullshit.

Can't see anything functionally unique about AMFlow bikes other than having a motor with the wick turned up with some snazzy software to control the motor.

You can see whatever you want to see but the truth is different. There is a reason why so many companies changed their designs in just over a year. That wasn't cheap.

 

[irie]

You can see whatever you want to see but the truth is different. There is a reason why so many companies changed their designs in just over a year. That wasn't cheap.

Other than the motor (which is by definition unique to DJI) with associated control software, what else is unique about AMFlow bikes or other bikes with the DJI motor?

Point by point please, take your time no probs.

Edit: add "or other bikes with the DJI motor."