Bosch Gen 5 Rumour - More Power updates coming!

[Yotaismygame]

I was out in the woods again tonight on my Heckler SL.

On all of the tight, technical climbing I'd have lost traction with anything more than Trail (or River, whatever Fazua call it).

I'm probably going to buy a Vala next week because I want more range, but where does everybody who wants or uses more power or assist levels use it? Just blasting up fire roads to get back to a trail head? On my Decoy, I never run my ancient E8000 in boost on technical ups or downs, it's too powerful.

On tonight's ride there were two sections of fireroad where if I'd had more power I'd have gotten up them quicker. They wouldn't have been more interesting, but I'd have spent maybe a minute or two less time pedalling up. I don't need to save that time, so where are Avinox riders, or full fat Bosch riders using the power?

I won't be the fastest rider on here, but I've been riding for 35 years and I'm definitely not hanging about. In the technical stuff, like Golfie maybe, I just can't see when I'd want more than 70 or 80Nm, or when my cadence needs more than 800 watts apart from the slog back up to the reservoir.

Am I missing the point?

Personally I think the Fazua is slightly under powered. Does get pretty good range for the small battery though but still not enough. Somone like Fazua or TQ need to come out with a 70-80nm/5-600 watt motor. with a 600wh or bigger battery. Or a removable smaller battery. I have two friends on the decoy SN and they can't hang with the big boys, power or range. But if it's just me on my current e7000 shimano motor and I kinda take my time it's pretty equal. I like having a workout on the climbs to some extent. The downs are tiring but not in the same way.

 

[Suns_PSD]

My new Bosch Wild has the ability to run the wheel sensor to the rotor. Molded right into the frame.
I suspect that Bosch pre-prepared to have additional pick up points.
More power, higher top speed, and more dense batteries are on the way, this we already know.
The motor has additional power ports too. I think the motor is primed to receive some significant updates, possibly for years to come.

 

[TheKaiser]

There are times it comes in handy and the grip is there... other times the power and over-run are a detriment. If Bosch had better wheel sensing and algorithm, you could almost have a "traction" control which could be handy. The latter is what I believe or think Avinox is doing and getting praise for its smooth and easy to use power.

When Bosch launched the Gen 5 CX they made a big deal about additions to the sensor suite and algo that allow for better traction control which they were calling "Dynamic Control" technology. Not sure if all the modes offer it or if it was only active in eMTB+ mode, and if it's something that you can toggle on/off, but it might be worth checking the menus in the Flow app to ensure you're getting the full benefits. They claimed that Dynamic Control did not require higher fidelity wheel speed sensors, because it relies on:

• Inertial Sensors (IMU): The Gen 5 motor includes new inertial sensors that measure position, acceleration, and pitch in real-time.
• High-Res Cadence Sensing: The motor samples your pedal input 1,000 times per second.
• Slip Detection: By comparing the high-frequency internal cadence/torque data against the wheel speed pulse, the system can "see" when the rear wheel breaks traction (spins faster than the ground speed suggests) and instantly reduces motor power to regain grip.

I haven't thought about it much since but, at the time, it did make sense to me that, since the motor is sampling the pedal input and cadence at such a high frequency, as well as measuring forward movement via accelerometers, it should be practical to detect a traction loss event, as the pedals will suddenly start accelerating right when the forward movement stalls out. Something like Avinox's 42 slot wheelspeed sensor certainly seems like it wouldn't hurt, but I can see how using cadence as a wheelspeed proxy could offer equally good results, given their sampling rate.

 

[IATR]

Personally I think the Fazua is slightly under powered. Does get pretty good range for the small battery though but still not enough. Somone like Fazua or TQ need to come out with a 70-80nm/5-600 watt motor. with a 600wh or bigger battery. Or a removable smaller battery. I have two friends on the decoy SN and they can't hang with the big boys, power or range. But if it's just me on my current e7000 shimano motor and I kinda take my time it's pretty equal. I like having a workout on the climbs to some extent. The downs are tiring but not in the same way.

The range on the SLs is a problem, for me at least. In the default middle setting, I get about 3,000ft of climbing, typically about a two hour ride. If I turn it down to Eco to give me more range, I think I'm about as fast on my Firebird without the hassle or weight.

The way the Fazua delivers its power is really very good, it's a great technical climber. Tight, rooty, steep climbs I could only dream of clearing on an analogue bike, and the Decoy would clumsily spin out on in a higher assist..

Give me a 60Nm motor with 600-800 range battery and I'm sold. Ideally Fazua (despite the early problems, or if they'd ever delivered their cancelled RX) but I'm hoping that's pretty much what a Vala with a Bosch motor will give me.

I'd absolutely take an Avinox too, for the weight alone, but configured the same way in the app.

I tend not to stop on a ride. I know a lot of people stop at pretty much every single trail head, but I just like to keep going. Fire road and easy trail climbs have always been where I chat to who ever I'm with. I'm not sure I want to climb those any faster than I do already, because it changes an enjoyable part of the ride for me. I totally get that some people will read this and wonder what I'm going on about, and the quicker they can get up the better, I suppose all I'm saying is that for me, top end power has pretty much no appeal. Maybe if I spent a year riding one I couldn't go back, but I can't see it right now.

If Bosch do release a faster charger so I could charge over lunch on a big day in the Tweed Valley, then I'm sold.

 

[Geew]

Bosch doesn't care about customer loyalty... their goal is to sell new bikes and make your two-year-old bike obsolete... I don't believe in backward compatibility. DJI will change everything every year, and everyone will be scrambling to get it.
They're for-profit companies, not charities.

 

[Raptor]

Bosch doesn't care about customer loyalty... their goal is to sell new bikes and make your two-year-old bike obsolete... I don't believe in backward compatibility. DJI will change everything every year, and everyone will be scrambling to get it.
They're for-profit companies, not charities.

Same principle as car manufacturers. The earliest people get used to this the less it hurts!

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

When Bosch launched the Gen 5 CX they made a big deal about additions to the sensor suite and algo that allow for better traction control which they were calling "Dynamic Control" technology. Not sure if all the modes offer it or if it was only active in eMTB+ mode, and if it's something that you can toggle on/off, but it might be worth checking the menus in the Flow app to ensure you're getting the full benefits. They claimed that Dynamic Control did not require higher fidelity wheel speed sensors, because it relies on:

• Inertial Sensors (IMU): The Gen 5 motor includes new inertial sensors that measure position, acceleration, and pitch in real-time.
• High-Res Cadence Sensing: The motor samples your pedal input 1,000 times per second.
• Slip Detection: By comparing the high-frequency internal cadence/torque data against the wheel speed pulse, the system can "see" when the rear wheel breaks traction (spins faster than the ground speed suggests) and instantly reduces motor power to regain grip.

I haven't thought about it much since but, at the time, it did make sense to me that, since the motor is sampling the pedal input and cadence at such a high frequency, as well as measuring forward movement via accelerometers, it should be practical to detect a traction loss event, as the pedals will suddenly start accelerating right when the forward movement stalls out. Something like Avinox's 42 slot wheelspeed sensor certainly seems like it wouldn't hurt, but I can see how using cadence as a wheelspeed proxy could offer equally good results, given their sampling rate.

I'll look into it... but with a single wheel sensor (magnet), wheel positon/speed can only be so granule and cannot be as fine as a reluctor ring ala "ABS style" like Avinox employs. I don't believe they can resolve wheel position/speed more than once per revolution as the magnet passes near the motor. A full, or near full revolution of slip is quite a bit.

I find I get wheel slip most often after releasing pressure on pedals when overrun engages. Generally its not an issue, but overrun is a blessing and curse depending on trail conditions.

 

[Fangs2k]

I'll look into it... but with a single wheel sensor (magnet), wheel positon/speed can only be so granule and cannot be as fine as a reluctor ring ala "ABS style" like Avinox employs. I don't believe they can resolve wheel position/speed more than once per revolution as the magnet passes near the motor. A full, or near full revolution of slip is quite a bit.

I find I get wheel slip most often after releasing pressure on pedals when overrun engages. Generally its not an issue, but overrun is a blessing and curse depending on trail conditions.

There’s a lot more going on in Bosch motors than just the wheel speed sensor for traction control.

The overrun feature/issue (blessing/curse?! ) is a different thing and can be dialed back.

It’s been discussed before, but all modern motors do traction control ‘in motor’. The Bosch (and others) approach is using the torque and MEMS sensors to detect when it’s unloaded due to wheel spin and respond accordingly.

 

[DylanJM]

When I race e enduro here in nz against a avinox with no speed restrictions and 1000w of power its bloody hard to compete,so thats why I need more from bosch

I am almost certain no manufacture is developing their bikes or making any decisions around emtb racing.

There’s a lot more going on in Bosch motors than just the wheel speed sensor for traction control.

The overrun feature/issue (blessing/curse?! ) is a different thing and can be dialed back.

It’s been discussed before, but all modern motors do traction control ‘in motor’. The Bosch (and others) approach is using the torque and MEMS sensors to detect when it’s unloaded due to wheel spin and respond accordingly.

That's what I would have thought. I feel like people overplay how important the speed disc on Avinox bikes is.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

There’s a lot more going on in Bosch motors than just the wheel speed sensor for traction control.

The overrun feature/issue (blessing/curse?! ) is a different thing and can be dialed back.

It’s been discussed before, but all modern motors do traction control ‘in motor’. The Bosch (and others) approach is using the torque and MEMS sensors to detect when it’s unloaded due to wheel spin and respond accordingly.

Is the dynamic control only eMTB+ mode? Cause in eMTB and Turbo it'll slip hard when traction breaks. I haven't tried any of the "+" modes. I wonder if the traction control applies to overrun or only during periods of pedaling.

I've also spent more time in Tour mode lately and noticed a few times the motor will suddenly be very slow to provide assistance after a very short pause in pedalling... typically uphill. When pedaling resumes, it feels like the motor is off and takes a crank or two for assistance to kick in. Unlike, in normal operation when the motor assistance kicks in very quickly.

 

[Fangs2k]

Is the dynamic control only eMTB+ mode? Cause in eMTB and Turbo it'll slip hard when traction breaks. I haven't tried any of the "+" modes. I wonder if the traction control applies to overrun or only during periods of pedaling.

I've also spent more time in Tour mode lately and noticed a few times the motor will suddenly be very slow to provide assistance after a very short pause in pedalling... typically uphill. When pedaling resumes, it feels like the motor is off and takes a crank or two for assistance to kick in. Unlike, in normal operation when the motor assistance kicks in very quickly.

I believe the overrun is excluded from the in motor control, I think the idea is that you’re pedals level (or not pedaling) in overrun as it’s to get you over an obstacle etc.

The only Bosch bike I currently have is an SX, so it doesn’t have EMTB+ mode but it seems to do its thing in all modes. It’s a noticeably better climber/more composed on the steeps than my Shimano or Mahle EMTBs anyway.

 

[Junior]

I'll look into it... but with a single wheel sensor (magnet), wheel positon/speed can only be so granule and cannot be as fine as a reluctor ring ala "ABS style" like Avinox employs. I don't believe they can resolve wheel position/speed more than once per revolution as the magnet passes near the motor. A full, or near full revolution of slip is quite a bit.

I find I get wheel slip most often after releasing pressure on pedals when overrun engages. Generally its not an issue, but overrun is a blessing and curse depending on trail conditions.

I would imagine the chain ring suddenly spinning faster than it was a split second ago while the pedals remain at their same cadence/torque would be one way to detect a wheel spin. If the chain starts moving faster, the wheel would be doing the same. Yeah?

 

[Junior]

One feature I would like to see: The ability to duplicate modes in my 4 allowed modes.

Currently running:
Eco+ 65nm/500watts
Tour+ 70/500
Emtb 85/600
emtb+100/750

I would like to duplicate emtb+ and tune down the first one.

 

[SilverWinterSky]

I would imagine the chain ring suddenly spinning faster than it was a split second ago while the pedals remain at their same cadence

Don’t you think the rotational speed (ie cadence) of the chain ring and the pedals are somewhat closely linked…?

 

[Junior]

Don’t you think the rotational speed (ie cadence) of the chain ring and the pedals are somewhat closely linked…?

Yes they are, however on an e bike the chain ring can in fact rotate separately from the crank. Go check it out on yours. Back pedaling does not move the chain.

While the chain slipping will lead to the cranks slipping, the fractions of a second between those two things can provide data on the wheel slipping. If the motor is sampling at 1/1000th of a second as stated, it is possible to detect one happening before the other and adjust power. Long story short: the once a revolution wheel magnet is not the only way to detect wheel slippage.

 

[Northman57]

and here is Bosch hinting that something is coming... Bosch eBike Systems on Instagram: "More skills. More fun. Stay tuned for a new feature and show everyone what you’ve got!⁣ ⁣ Coming soon.⁣ ⁣ #boschebikesystems #boschebike #FeelTheFlow #eMTB #uphillflow"

 

[Endorium]

Someone mentioned more dense Bosch batteries. Pure rumor or is it coming? I 'assume' retro for to existing bikes?

 

[Powerslider]

I’m trying to think of the business case for manufacturing new hardware for bikes that have already been sold. Sounds like it’d be difficult to turn a profit on something like that. To me that’s exactly the kind of thing you don’t do when your company/division is trying to survive.

 

[TheKaiser]

I’m trying to think of the business case for manufacturing new hardware for bikes that have already been sold. Sounds like it’d be difficult to turn a profit on something like that. To me that’s exactly the kind of thing you don’t do when your company/division is trying to survive.

If you are in the business of selling whole bikes then, yes, I agree, you'd want to push new bike sales. But Bosch is in the business of selling motors and batteries. I don't see how it should matter to them if they sell the motors and batteries as OEM components to a bike company, or as a retrofit/aftermarket item for someone who has already bought a bike. In some regards, selling existing customers upgrades could be more advantageous. They have an existing user base, who have already bought into the ecosystem, so they're easy to upsell on battery or motor upgrades. If you don't support those users with upgrade options, they may buy a whole new bike, but there is no guarantee (to put it mildly) that they'll get another Bosch bike. So by not offering upgrade paths, they're risking existing customers defecting to a whole different ecosystem. Plus, they could sell these upgrades at a higher margin than the rock bottom OEM prices they offer bike companies, so if they could streamline the process such that it didn't require a lot of man hours it could be a substantial profit generator.

 

[Powerslider]

If you are in the business of selling whole bikes then, yes, I agree, you'd want to push new bike sales. But Bosch is in the business of selling motors and batteries. I don't see how it should matter to them if they sell the motors and batteries as OEM components to a bike company, or as a retrofit/aftermarket item for someone who has already bought a bike. In some regards, selling existing customers upgrades could be more advantageous. They have an existing user base, who have already bought into the ecosystem, so they're easy to upsell on battery or motor upgrades. If you don't support those users with upgrade options, they may buy a whole new bike, but there is no guarantee (to put it mildly) that they'll get another Bosch bike. So by not offering upgrade paths, they're risking existing customers defecting to a whole different ecosystem. Plus, they could sell these upgrades at a higher margin than the rock bottom OEM prices they offer bike companies, so if they could streamline the process such that it didn't require a lot of man hours it could be a substantial profit generator.

Let’s first acknowledge what you describe is novel concept for Bosch. There must be a reason they’re not already selling motor components to end users.

My suspicion is what I mentioned in my post; selling drive systems to consumers sounds difficult to be profitable. I can imagine when Bosch crunches the numbers on the concept; it gets rejected. I’ve seen so many great ideas fail to get to market solely because of a lack of confidence in profitability.

I also question how Bosch’s cycle company partners would react to this concept. You do make a good point that a factory upgrade path could make buying a Bosch powered bike more attractive. However that is marketing division thinking. I’m quite confident Bosch isn’t going to pull funds from the marketing budget to fund the upgrade program. It needs to be able to be profitable on its own.

 

[padan]

If you are in the business of selling whole bikes then, yes, I agree, you'd want to push new bike sales. But Bosch is in the business of selling motors and batteries. I don't see how it should matter to them if they sell the motors and batteries as OEM components to a bike company, or as a retrofit/aftermarket item for someone who has already bought a bike. In some regards, selling existing customers upgrades could be more advantageous. They have an existing user base, who have already bought into the ecosystem, so they're easy to upsell on battery or motor upgrades. If you don't support those users with upgrade options, they may buy a whole new bike, but there is no guarantee (to put it mildly) that they'll get another Bosch bike. So by not offering upgrade paths, they're risking existing customers defecting to a whole different ecosystem. Plus, they could sell these upgrades at a higher margin than the rock bottom OEM prices they offer bike companies, so if they could streamline the process such that it didn't require a lot of man hours it could be a substantial profit generator.

Manufacturers make more $$ selling components direct to consumer than they do selling to a manufacturer in bulk. If they created motors as standard components, then consumers will pay for upgrades over and over.
Imagine if a motor mount was standard like your rear derailleur mount or stem. You could have replaced your EP800 with a Avinox M1 last year, then an Avinox M2 this year. They'd keep selling a consumer a new motor / battery upgrade for $2500 a pop every couple of years. Makes more business sense than selling it in bulk to bike manufacturers for $800 for the same battery / motor combo.
The frame companies would just keep doing what they do to sell complete bikes and new frames... boost axles... make it more slack... make it mullet... change the geo... etc... etc... etc...

 

[ozzybmx]

But Bosch is in the business of selling motors and batteries. I don't see how it should matter to them if they sell the motors and batteries as OEM components to a bike company, or as a retrofit/aftermarket item for someone who has already bought a bike. In some regards, selling existing customers upgrades could be more advantageous.

In the business of selling motors to bike manufacturers.

Current model is, if you have an older Bosch bike (or new) and the motor fails. You cannot buy a replacement/spare Bosch motor through the correct channels, AKA Bosch though your local bike shop. It black market reconditioned and eBay motors only from crashed bikes.

You can walk in to Ford, Toyota, Lambo etc... and buy a new engine or any part without even owing the car.

Bosch thinks they are bloody Bugatti. Bike must be taken to a registered Bosch service centre at YOUR cost, you pay for motor assessment and removal, its sent back to Bosch and a replacement sent out, then fitted at your cost.
Its $400 just for the bike shop work to remove-replace-refit the motor and I've dropped the motor 10 times for cable/hose routing etc... you don't get to keep the motor or have a go at fixing it before buying a new one.

You basically dont even own the Bosch motor on your $15,000 bike. Call it keeping control of quality or whatever, I call it complete control over the owner of the bike.

My Gen 4 Bosch was the noisiest motor I've ever experienced, haven ridden with and on 10+ other Gen 4 owners bikes including on an identical Ibis Oso, same model, same size, same components. Mine was twice as bad as the 2nd nosiest. I had it assessed twice, both times they said 'yeah they all make a rattle'. I wanted to buy, not warranty BUY another new Gen 4 motor and swap it over but couldn't.

At one stage, I though of just taking a hammer to the casing and paying trough the teeth for the bike shop to do their thing and full tote replacement price from Bosch. Its basically a dictatorship.

 

[Bogdan_CH]

Don’t get the ranting of buying a motor separately.

Please tell me any of : Brose/ Shimano / Avinox / Fazua / TQ etc that sell a motor ?

None !

They all go for replacements and makes sense as they want to see what failed and improve from there .

From my POV the scheme behind this update is quite simple :

1. Market asks for more power to be completive
2. Bike brands pushed this way so they can be as well collective as none of them wants their bikes placed in shops way behind the Avinox as old news
3. Bosch options right now stands in a new motor , battery shape etc so basically new molds for every bike brand which they know if they require this , they could just go Avinox route all in or give them the max out of the current motor so they can still push with current stock of bikes .

Could be wrong but Bosch did this trick when the Gen5 was launched , intentionally capped at Gen4 power values , just to allow large stock of previous bikes to be sold .

 

[JVC]

Rumors

 

[curufinwe_wins]

Honestly, bosch's peak power is fine IMO (even as someone who loves the more from avinox). The biggest issue is they need to pull the bandage from 400% assist and go up to the same 800%.

People can check with torque meeters, but I've literally never seen a full 80 NM being used by my avinox. Not even for a full second. We are riding middrives with gearing.

If a hill takes 750W total to get up comfortably, Bosch is asking you to put in 150W. Avinox asks you to do barely over half that (at 80W).

First world problems of course, but thats the type of thing most people actually notice in differences.

I also think both Bosch and Avinox should let you add more custom modes if you want them (say 9 max like our Bafang standards). I wish I had one more mode I could also tune low.

 

[Northman57]

120nm, but I don’t think (sadly) they’ll go beyond 750w peak power, considering everything they’ve put in place (screaming about fear of regulations, trail access, think tanks, etc.). It would be like losing face.

 

[maddog69]

120nm, but I don’t think (sadly) they’ll go beyond 750w peak power, considering everything they’ve put in place (screaming about fear of regulations, trail access, think tanks, etc.). It would be like losing face.

They will if they want to stay in the game ,why choose a bosch bike when avinox is offering so much more

 

[Fangs2k]

120nm, but I don’t think (sadly) they’ll go beyond 750w peak power, considering everything they’ve put in place (screaming about fear of regulations, trail access, think tanks, etc.). It would be like losing face.

I know many think it’s hysterics about the trail access thing, and I know it’s not the same everywhere in the world, but for the UK/EU the concerns are very real. That being so, I don’t see why they can’t compete on the same terms as others in different parts of the world where regs/laws are different.

If they can up the peak power whilst still staying within the 250w nominal rules that are law here, then I hope they do.

 

[Plummet]

Manufacturers make more $$ selling components direct to consumer than they do selling to a manufacturer in bulk. If they created motors as standard components, then consumers will pay for upgrades over and over.
Imagine if a motor mount was standard like your rear derailleur mount or stem. You could have replaced your EP800 with a Avinox M1 last year, then an Avinox M2 this year. They'd keep selling a consumer a new motor / battery upgrade for $2500 a pop every couple of years. Makes more business sense than selling it in bulk to bike manufacturers for $800 for the same battery / motor combo.
The frame companies would just keep doing what they do to sell complete bikes and new frames... boost axles... make it more slack... make it mullet... change the geo... etc... etc... etc...

Manufactuters dont make more $$ selling components directly to consumers. They make more gp% but the total gp$ is a lot less. Also admin and cost to market is a lot higher per individual sale.

Eg lets say bosch sells 1000 motors for $1000 to trek at 30% gp. Thats $300,000 gp$ on a $1,000,000 sale. One sale, one invoice one bulk shipment.

Sell one motor to Joe Blogs at $1500.
They make $800 gp$ 53% gp%.

To get to the same gp$ bosch needs to sell 375 individual units, 375 invoices, 375 shipments.......

Literally 375 time more admin to make the same $$$.

 

[padan]

Manufactuters dont make more $$ selling components directly to consumers. They make more gp% but the total gp$ is a lot less. Also admin and cost to market is a lot higher per individual sale.

Eg lets say bosch sells 1000 motors for $1000 to trek at 30% gp. Thats $300,000 gp$ on a $1,000,000 sale. One sale, one invoice one bulk shipment.

Sell one motor to Joe Blogs at $1500.
They make $800 gp$ 53% gp%.

To get to the same gp$ bosch needs to sell 375 individual units, 375 invoices, 375 shipments.......

Literally 375 time more admin to make the same $$$.

It's a good thing SRAM and Shimano don't feel the same way or we wouldn't be able to buy new group sets or wheels.

Even if DJI doesn't want to deal with individual D2C shipments, they can just sell to Jenson and Chain Reaction in bulk at the same margins, thus giving them a bigger market.