That's quite a take...
Maxon Air S 90Nm 620 W, 600/400. + 250Wh extender
- Thread starter TCFlowClyde
- Start date
CoolWetGrass
New Member
I kind of agree. However, it's one thing to buy a niche brand when there are no electronics to consider (normal mtb). You can fix it yourself or take to the LBS. Once you consider the fallibility of motor/battery components, it would be preferable to have a service centre in reach. Buying and emtb from a niche brand seems like a roll of the dice, over buying one from one of the supported behemoths of the cycling world.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
you obviously doesn’t know what this company does
I do know what they do. I worked on a DARPA project that used their motors, sensors and controllers. We easily spent $2-3 million with them during my short time on that project. I was referring to their e-bike side of things, maybe I should have worded that better. Bottom line is no company is going to keep a profit losing product on the shelf, if bikes with this motor system don’t sell well then Maxon will drop it. ZF is a much larger, more profitable company than Maxon and they dropped their e-bike system.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
yes, because it was shit
hi Static planned using our frame and we have decided to sell dirtlab in the UK directly so you are welcome to get in direct contact with us.
i get what you mean yet Maxon has had a bad run with their rear hub drive before then a good run with the first bikedrive air engine with very few issues. i have worked with all bigger enginebrands and can't tell much regarding service etc. due to nda's ;-) but i can tell you that Maxon does a good job compared to others and whilst not being from the bike industry. The new Bikedrive Air S is a way better system then the air not just in terms of power etc. yet also from an engineering point of view and they will not give up easily !!
slickrock
Well-known member
So where are we with the Dirtlab Paratu? Leo rode that bike many months to gauge his next bike rendition. And I ran out of patience waiting for your guy in Tahoe to have one to test ride.
Instinctiv Ocelot 125 e-Bike First Ride: Turbo Cat or Playful Kitten?
Instinctiv Ocelot 125 on test: a lightweight eMTB with a maxon motor, strong on the climbs and playful on flow trails. Big cat performance, or just a playful kitten?
ebike-mtb.com
It looks like you have forgotten there was already a bikedrive air before the air S for sale since 2022 and still selling even with the lower power 40nm and 280w that motor is more reliable and more quite and efficient then many. Maxon has done years of testing on on the new Air S system and Transalpes their bikes were built just before eurobike as the Transalpes and dirtlab bike were at eurobike and were rideable. The engines at that moment were b samples as many other engines at every show are this doesn’t mean they would not come to market. As with every system it takes a while to get to mass production same for the frames which were started as tooling in may 2025 so later then the engine with the target to be mass production ready by q1 2026 and are now ready to be delivered as are the engines. Development takes time one can only blame Maxon for informing everyone they would be ready just after eurobike and it took them longer this doesn’t make them bad or worse just late yet for good reasons as supply chains since last year have tightened on everything for which some other brands this year will face the consequences. We are building bikes as we speak and luckily there are customers with better faith …. Now time will tell how good the system really is .. we already know ;-)
Production ready for medium which is being delivered as we speak and at bikefestival Riva del garda at the Maxon booth.
Your point is Understandable we were all pushing for a faster delivery window and all needed more time patience is a personal thing we have it as we need it we are shipping to dirtE in Lake Tahoe soon !!
That would be amazing yet before the bike industry has access to that technology at the pricing they need we are talking 2030 not anytime sooner as at first all other industries will absorb the volume as they can handle higher cost at scale
Yet it would be something if we have 1000wh batteries at a way lower weight and with a better smaller shape ;-) looking forward to the day we can make frames for such tech
slickrock
Well-known member
Any chance of seeing your bike any Maxon Air S bike at Sea Otter? That would be good exposure.
Yes we should be ready on time for USA it’s just the shipping time and stupid tarrif discussions with customs that could make it tight but we are doing our best
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
so where is the bigger battery?
In development i think i have mentioned this before and as far as we are aware maxon targets Q3 2026 delivery. Which is exactly why we have focused on the 400Wh +250Wh Range extender concept first, as it's a more versatile Bike. By using this combination, we can build lighter frames than with the 600Wh battery. In our opinion, a 600Wh frame again should be able to work with 250Wh RE added to the frame and the frame weight would explode into the 4kg range, which is kind of pointless to us. One will say that that weight is not needed well then i would challeng you to dissassemble some current bikes and weigh frame only weights as they are closer to 4KG then to 3kg.
Dirtlab Paratu Review - emtb-test.comInstinctiv Ocelot 125 e-Bike First Ride: Turbo Cat or Playful Kitten?
Instinctiv Ocelot 125 on test: a lightweight eMTB with a maxon motor, strong on the climbs and playful on flow trails. Big cat performance, or just a playful kitten?
Maxon Drive Air S Review - emtb-test.com
emtb-test.com
This review is available in English. I checked the link for English, yet in the upper right-hand corner, it might switch back to german when opening the link, and just go to the upper right corner, switch to English. The engine test has one "flaw" testing maxon at 150W.
The rider's input power does not unlock its full potential as the rider needs to give 200/250w of his own power; therefore, they cap the engine at 470w, which is not the case, it really has 620w max power. Maxon's benefit is their battery/energy consumption efficiency, which lies at 88%, and in some engines, a bit higher, and this is key to knowing what it could potentially have as range, and never understood by most testers, unfortunately!
The current test result of one climb: 1064m in 30 minutes at 110kg system weight with 150W input power is a score that sits comfortably in their all time top5. We know we can get way more out of it with more rider input power, and add the range extender, and it adds another 50% extra in distance and altitude.
i hope this info helps some of you build a better view of this engine and off course the brands using it ;-) all make nice bikes.
Roaming50
Member
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slickrock
Well-known member
Really like what they did with the motor orientation in puting the main motor chassis in line with the downtube, pretty much making the motor disappear, kinda like with Fazua did many moons ago with there removable motor platform where you can run the bike without a battery and motor. And the motor silence is uncanny. I'm running my Bosch Gen4 race motor, and man it can be loud sometimes.
I think the Maxon is nearly a perfect motor. I don't care about 150nm or whatever the big players are now chasing. I do think it's dumb to waste the lightness by strapping it to a machined Al Pole frame, but whatever.
It needs two things to hit critical mass:
1) It needs the latest technlogy fixed approximately 600 wh battery. Most competitive weight possible. Sorry, but even with 88% efficiency, 400wh is not enough and it's not really very light anyways.
2) It HAS to have chain ring protection. This is absolutely required. ISO3 tabs to mount any bash guard would suffice.
With these changes, and careful trail oriented builds, we could have 43# 150/ 160mm travel trail bikes, which would be amazing!
It needs two things to hit critical mass:
1) It needs the latest technlogy fixed approximately 600 wh battery. Most competitive weight possible. Sorry, but even with 88% efficiency, 400wh is not enough and it's not really very light anyways.
2) It HAS to have chain ring protection. This is absolutely required. ISO3 tabs to mount any bash guard would suffice.
With these changes, and careful trail oriented builds, we could have 43# 150/ 160mm travel trail bikes, which would be amazing!
The Maxon system looks very interesting, but anything but a Pole!
slickrock
Well-known member
Agreed that Maxon needs more players, but Pole (despite its notoriety) is in a way validating the platform more than any other brand at moment and seems to be the only one that is advancing a bike with 600wh battery into the enduro category. All the rest (e.g. Dirtlab, CDURO, etc.) are going the SL route with the more slender 400wh battery and are trying to justify that size battery + extender is all you need. And the new Pole model seems fashioned after the Sonni (not Voima), and I can attest that it's a much better design and riding dynamic than it's prior, albeit using the same subtractive machining approach that has had questionable success. Earning back brand trust is altogether another matter, however.
@MetroNeck the reason static dissapointed you was very simple they had requested the UK as their sales area and we had initially agreed yet with the note as with Transalpes that they cannot sell outside the are for which they have their exclusivity as that remains Dirtlab territory we are in touch with some Canadian customers and have already sold some as well that are about to be delivered soon. You are welcome to visit our site and get in touch with me that way and we will help you and no need to worry about service as Maxon North America will have spare parts in stock soon as will we and we serve our customers correctly as we would expect to be serviced ourselves. Hope to hear from you ;-)
Hi @slickrock your comment is very correct Pole as a brand has an different impact then the other brands have as those were allways more local Swiss. Dirtlab never was yet during my time at Pierer on husqvarna and gas gas bikes we never pushed hard for Dirtlab now we are changing this. Regarding the SL
Direction we have chosen it as we do the project together with Transalpes and tgeee is an audience for this bike it’s for sure not for everyone here I agree yet a big percentage of the riders will have enough on the 400wh and by adding the extender they can do big rides. Efficiency of the engine and the bike star power Input from the rider is a feature that rewards range differently then most other systems do and due to the fact that there is no performance throttling in the Maxon it is capable of giving full power for the whole ride not 79% of max after the first big climb because the engine gets too warm. On many rides we do here we ride with other engines incl. Avinox ones and after an hour or two hours riding the % of battery use is virtually identical and with the air s it’s an even marginally lower use %.
Hi @Suns_PSD I like your comment and thinking we are actually working on a bash adapter that would replace the motor mount washers we use and fit direct to the motor mount screws. Our CP bike isn’t superlight yet within its category 160-165 rear to 170 front it is one of the lightest bikes currently in the market and our bikes are built/weighed either pedals and downhill rated tires that weigh 1290 gr each. Trail oriented versions can be made very light and we have a seperate flexstay rear end in the works that would have less rear travel and shave 500gr of our frameweight what kind of travel would you like to see ??
Roaming50
Member
i'm excited for the Maxon Air S, but I agree with others in the items that I feel it needs.
1: I won't buy a bike with the 400wh only option. I need a 600wh with the 250wh RE option. A Air S bike for me, would be an back country adventure machine, so I want the ability to ride 40-50 miles on it with 4-5,000 feet of climbing. For me, it is not so much about the climbing but supporting endurance - which can take a surprising toll on the battery.
2: The battery tech needs to be improved. It needs slimmer batteries for the sleek downtube look. Sorry, by I don't want my bike to be fat.
3: The battery needs fast charging. One of the draws of the Avinox system is not the motor but rather the battery and the 12A fast charge.
4: I want seamless integration with external devices: full stats to a Garmin (etc.), BTle to an iphone, integration with Shimano and/or SRAM electronic shifters for smoother shifting.
5: Battery/motor to support power to SRAM AXS and/or Shimano Di2 rear mechs.
6. The motor must be silent when coasting and near silent when driven.
I just bought a super lightweigh 360wh TQ based bike for my local trails. Next machine will be a 150/160 backcountry machine but I would still like to aim for a sub 42lb weight with a 600wh battery (for comparison, my current aluminum 560wh EP8rs based 140/150mm Orbea Rise is 46lb - it's a good bike but I would like to lose the EP8rs and have a newer/next gen motor that is silent).
1: I won't buy a bike with the 400wh only option. I need a 600wh with the 250wh RE option. A Air S bike for me, would be an back country adventure machine, so I want the ability to ride 40-50 miles on it with 4-5,000 feet of climbing. For me, it is not so much about the climbing but supporting endurance - which can take a surprising toll on the battery.
2: The battery tech needs to be improved. It needs slimmer batteries for the sleek downtube look. Sorry, by I don't want my bike to be fat.
3: The battery needs fast charging. One of the draws of the Avinox system is not the motor but rather the battery and the 12A fast charge.
4: I want seamless integration with external devices: full stats to a Garmin (etc.), BTle to an iphone, integration with Shimano and/or SRAM electronic shifters for smoother shifting.
5: Battery/motor to support power to SRAM AXS and/or Shimano Di2 rear mechs.
6. The motor must be silent when coasting and near silent when driven.
I just bought a super lightweigh 360wh TQ based bike for my local trails. Next machine will be a 150/160 backcountry machine but I would still like to aim for a sub 42lb weight with a 600wh battery (for comparison, my current aluminum 560wh EP8rs based 140/150mm Orbea Rise is 46lb - it's a good bike but I would like to lose the EP8rs and have a newer/next gen motor that is silent).
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Thanks for the input. Your claims on battery percent used are something else. I was up in the middle of the night and watched Alex's Maxon range test.
Some months back I looked at the power density of the Maxon 400 and wasn't impressed. I have a Bosch CXR, and while not as efficient as the Maxon, it's known to be an efficient motor, and I would not run less than a 600 wh battery and in fact would prefer a bit more wh for my AM style (but no real mountains, just rugged hills) riding area. So, I feel strongly that you should design a 550-625wh battery pack using the best cell technology (Motel?). I get that you'll pick up a bit of range just cause it's a 43# bike instead of a 50# bike and that matters.
A 150-155/ 160 travel AM bike covers 90% of situations and allows you to stay in a Fox 36mm fork, so saves a lot of weight vs. a F38.
I greatly dislike flex stay suspension. They are good on smooth pump tracks as they give back a lot of energy and sort of squirt you forward, but with the inherent 'springyness' they simply can't move fast enough in my very rocky terrain and they chatter and skip the entire time and brake like crap. Four bar/ Horst Link is the superior suspension design, and the weight penalty is worth it. I think Flex stay would be appropriate on the 130/ 150mm travel version of the bike, as that's for a different rider group and you'd build that entire bike very light.
Additionally, I'm quite weight weenie, but try to not sacrifice anything of value, such as tire robustness, particularly on an e-bike that can have you very far from the car and sucks 2x as much to push out. So Enduro style tires are smart. I try to save weight through careful spec choices, which are often expensive, but it does add up to some weight savings.
I also think that a coil shock is a good use of extra weight on an e-bike. The durability, longevity & performance is quite the advantage on the heavier & faster e-bikes where on a pedal bike, it's not so helpful. The reality is that a coil shock with a 450 spring only weighs about 100 grams more than an X2 and it's the best place to locate extra weight anyways. But the rear suspension needs to be designed correctly for them to work. In a 150mm travel bike you'd need around 30-33% progression. Another interesting option is to run a Neo electronic shock while having a somewhat low Anti-squat suspension, of say around 92%. The rear suspension is much plusher like this but pedals poorly unless you have a Neo.
You should really offer frame only options and you can charge a premium for them. But if you must sell completes only, the top model should have either Crankbrothers Synthesis or Enve wheels. Both of these wheels have real handling advantages, and it sucks buying the high-end bike and having to sell off the stock CF wheels to install what I want. Just one of the reasons a frame only is better.
Lastly, the motor absolutely needs to have a power port to run an electronic dropper as that is the future. KS Lev has already shown one. Better provide a power port for electronic shifting as well.
That's my input.
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Roaming50
Member
Exactly. Orbea has the right approach here. I don't see the need for extra batteries on a dropper. It should be fed from the main bike battery.
Good points overall, and we’re aligned on more than you might think.
On the flexstay — fully agree, and honestly I was curious what you’d say. You landed exactly on 130, which is precisely where we’re at with that. We did try it at 150 but felt it was too close to the Paratu CP’s travel range and frankly not good enough to justify producing. So 130 it is, different rider, different brief. The Paratu CP runs a concentric pivot, proper four-bar, so none of the chatter and brake sensitivity issues you’re describing. Rear travel is adjustable at 145, 150, 160 and 165mm via shock stroke, and we run longer 230 eye-to-eye metric shocks for heat management and durability on a platform that’s working harder. Coil approved too — personally I prefer coil anyway. The weight penalty is a non-argument when you factor in what you get back in feel and longevity on a heavier, harder-hitting bike. You put weight where it makes sense, and low in the rear linkage is exactly that.
Frame-only is actually our default — it’s how we prefer to sell. We’re a smaller operation and we’re not going to pretend we can nail everyone’s spec wishes with a complete build. We don’t want to put together a kit someone pulls apart the day it arrives. We like custom builds ourselves, and our kits are set up for exactly that. Suspension-wise you can run DVO or Öhlins now, RockShox coil coming later.
On battery — noted, cell technology is moving fast and it’s something we’re watching closely
Attachments
Only other input is I prefer the 180mm native rear brake mount. I think it's enough for a bike in this travel range and pairs really well with a 200mm front rotor.
Every other sport has a larger front rotor than rear, because it just feels more balanced. Bikes have not caught on. If you do a 200mm rear, well now you need a 220mm front.
Regarding HCR, it's extremely unpopular but as long as you have electronic shifting and dropper, I really like it. It's clean, light, works with MX or standard brake mounting, cheaper to implement, etc. If I was designing a bike, I would not know what to do here because a huge number of people make a big deal about this. But I feel with only one rear brake line entering, it's a moot point. Maybe a really slick upper headset cup would included would remove those concerns?
Every other sport has a larger front rotor than rear, because it just feels more balanced. Bikes have not caught on. If you do a 200mm rear, well now you need a 220mm front.
Regarding HCR, it's extremely unpopular but as long as you have electronic shifting and dropper, I really like it. It's clean, light, works with MX or standard brake mounting, cheaper to implement, etc. If I was designing a bike, I would not know what to do here because a huge number of people make a big deal about this. But I feel with only one rear brake line entering, it's a moot point. Maybe a really slick upper headset cup would included would remove those concerns?
