I don't, if ebikes with cadence sensors are allowed which require basically 0 effort to get 100% power then why limit the assistance % of torque sensors. Unless I'm misunderstanding what is being proposed and cadence would also no longer be allowed, which could have drastic affects to the cheap ebike scene
Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
Amen !
Shameless bosch, so called influencers or pseudo-journalist, pseudo-press (owned through advertising) and self-submissive brands lies, manipulation, propaganda, lobbying : nothing will stop the fall of suckers.
About your last question, i just can sadly reply with a picture !
Private brand lobbying (thank you europe bureaucracy ) to protect his market share, looks like a mafia protecting his racket.
Who are those people who decide, without any elective mandate ?
Who are those self promoted expert, representative of their interest (and only THEIR FINANCIAL interests) ?
Lies, lies, lies.
I watched that video. The problem with what Claus Fleischer is saying, is that DJI isn't the first EMTB motor that exceeded 750 watts peak. But they are the first to do it with revolutionary technology of a light and small motor and battery. As a result, they are grabbing significant market share in the markets they have been released in.
So Bosch release this new firmware with 750 watts peak power, and what do you know, a sudden huge media campaign to get 750 watts peak power written into regulation.
For all I care, Claus can say Aliens are what is driving this new push for regulation. It would be more believable. Because you cannot get around the fact that with a speed limit of 25kph. The peak power of a 250 watt rated motor, is not going to impact safety. So why this sudden need for peak power regulation, when we have rated power regulation ?
There is zero evidence that DJI powered Ebikes are in any way more dangerous than any other EU compliant motor. There is zero reports of increased injuries or accidents. And why would there be. The motor delivers the power so naturally, and is speed limited to 25kph.
Infact the most dangerous Ebike I've seen, is the video of Rob trying to ride the new Bosch Motor in Race Mode, and he touches the pedals and it takes off stupidly, and then without pedalling just continues to drive, causing him to fall off. What dope thought that's safe software to have available on an Ebike. That would be Mr "I'm just trying to protect the industry" Claus Fleischer.
I ride a 600 peak watt EP801, and have configured a Mode just below peak, that I use 90% of the time, because full boost mode I reserve for only when I am climbing the steepest terrain, because the software at Full Boost Mode is too saw-tooth. It's like riding a motor with a switch, instead of Torque Control. The software can make high peak power difficult to control, even at 600 watts peak.
And that is why I reiterate. Smoothly controlled peak power from a 250 watt rated motor, is not a safety issue. And from reports. The DJI power delivery is class leading.
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I really wonder if this would be legal to put in law peak power max.
What directly comes to mind is motorbike vs car, or super car. I have never ever heard some potential law that stop/block them having thousand horses vs classic car. These vehicules have huge power and you do not need extra driving licence either but they really can be dangerous if and only if you try to reach limit speed in a city in few sec, driver just cannot anticipate situation.
In a world where UE regulates everything bad or wrong, maybe it could exists but there is absolutely no safety issue to me, the only reason would be lobbying of Germany against Chinese motor?
What directly comes to mind is motorbike vs car, or super car. I have never ever heard some potential law that stop/block them having thousand horses vs classic car. These vehicules have huge power and you do not need extra driving licence either but they really can be dangerous if and only if you try to reach limit speed in a city in few sec, driver just cannot anticipate situation.
In a world where UE regulates everything bad or wrong, maybe it could exists but there is absolutely no safety issue to me, the only reason would be lobbying of Germany against Chinese motor?
I'll add a tuppence to this discourse.
1) Market share.
At least in Europe, most ebikes (pedelacs) being sold (e.g. in Germany ebikes outselling bio-bikes the other year) are not MTBs, they're touring and urban bikes. In my part of the world I see more e-cargobikes than eMTBs.
As DJI, at least currently, isn't even operating in this space, the market share threat is limited.
2) Given that design often involves compromises, It remains to be seen if the motors with higher peak-power have equivalent reliability and life expectancy of other models. At the moment, they're a different design, not necessarily better. Too soon to call either way obviously, need to wait ~ 18 months IMO.
3) Conspiracies. Firstly, Hanlon's razor.
I suspect European regulators have already been considering revising the rules for pedelacs, and so the industry (at least the European based part) is attempting to preempt this.
As an aside, peak = 3 * nominal isn't an unreasonable rule of thumb.
1) Market share.
At least in Europe, most ebikes (pedelacs) being sold (e.g. in Germany ebikes outselling bio-bikes the other year) are not MTBs, they're touring and urban bikes. In my part of the world I see more e-cargobikes than eMTBs.
As DJI, at least currently, isn't even operating in this space, the market share threat is limited.
2) Given that design often involves compromises, It remains to be seen if the motors with higher peak-power have equivalent reliability and life expectancy of other models. At the moment, they're a different design, not necessarily better. Too soon to call either way obviously, need to wait ~ 18 months IMO.
3) Conspiracies. Firstly, Hanlon's razor.
I suspect European regulators have already been considering revising the rules for pedelacs, and so the industry (at least the European based part) is attempting to preempt this.
As an aside, peak = 3 * nominal isn't an unreasonable rule of thumb.
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I didn't want to play the race card. But exactly this.
The Germans have been renown as the best engineers. But the Chinese have really picked up their game in Drive Control.
The world leader in Drive Control Units produced, is a Chinese Company called Gobao. And guess which market they are moving into ? That's right ...... Ebike Motors.
You keep saying that DJI are grabbing ‘significant market share’, but you haven’t actually backed that up anywhere I can see? Unless you have some numbers, it’s just guesswork, which is fine, but I can’t see how anybody except DJI will know what they‘re selling. Sure, they’re obviously selling e-bikes with that motor and some other brands have announced bikes with the Avinox system, but as for numbers and market share I don’t think we know. Any idea how many they’re selling versus the rest of the brands in the e-bike market? I don’t and would love to know if you do.
Bosch are widely attributed with pushing development of the modern e-mtb, e-bikes have come a long way since the first brushed washing machine motors were stuck on pedal cycles (also the reason for the 250w nominal rating) and I’m not getting the hate for them to be honest, nor this idea that the 750w ’limit’ is somehow an attempt to hamstring this upstart company called DJI.
Personally, I’m not that fussed about ‘power’, it’s torque that does the work anyway and is arguably far more important in an e-bike application with hard assist limits, and in that sense the Bosch 100Nm CX motor is more than competitive with any other motor out there.
They have. But they always have been around speed limits. The only reason 600 watts was the normal manufacturers peak limit in the EU, was because Austria had a peak limit regulation. But that has been rescinded 2 years ago.
There is no reason to reintroduce a peak limit. We just got rid of it. Just stick with rated power and speed. The problem and danger to the industry is unrestricted over-rated Ebikes. And peak power regulation would do zero to stop these. Unlawful activity is not controlled by regulation. It's controlled by enforcement. Unlawful people, sellers and manufacturers by definition, ignore regulations, so the only people impacted would be lawful people who aren't the problem.
Why would Bosch be competing based on ‘race’, they’re presumably just competing, defending their €1 Bn+ e-bike revenues? Bosch actually have many factories in China in connection with their other business’, I wouldn’t be surprised if they get into e-bike motors in China (if they aren’t already) the Chinese e-bike market surely has the potential to be huge.
Bosch is a massive company, revenue of €100Bn+ in all their activities, e-bikes are a pretty small part of it in the grand scheme of things.
My local dealers are reporting that the Amflow was their biggest selling EMTBs. I spoke to directly to Camden Cycles and Cyclery Studio. I confirmed this by listing bikes on their website by best selling.
Recently due to the launch of the new Levo. Specialised have taken over.
This is what I mean, you’ve had a casual chat with 2 local bike shops, but it’s just that.
I spoke to my local bike shop, they said that Specialized are flying out the doors, but then they are a Specialized concept store…
“Local bike shop sells what ever they have in stock” isn’t really a headline is it?
I've worked for Siemens and now Schneider Electric. The managers of their divisions care about losing market share.
I don't disagree with anything you wrote.
However, the technology has progressed a lot since the rules were introduced, so it wouldn't be surprising if they're being reviewed. If and what changes is anyone's guess, obviously. Personally I'd like to see a slight increase of the nominal power limit, purely to improve the viability of e-cargobikes (which I think are a good way to reduce car use). I'd accept a peak power limit in combination, for example.
Secondly, while you're right about enforcement and everything, there's also the concept of "helping honest people stay honest ", like padlocks on cellar doors, limiters on lorries, etc.
Specialized are flying off the shelves here too. But before that it was Amflow.
Amflow didn't exist 12 months ago. Any sales means they are taking a piece of the existing market share.
Of course they do, it wouldn’t be a well run company if they didn’t, that’s just business.
It’s this idea that it’s easier for one player (albeit the market leader) to try and change the regulatory framework for e-bikes rather than just compete like they’ve always done I have a problem with.
It’s not like Bosch lack the technical ability and resources to do so.
Competition is a good thing isn’t it, but as I wrote earlier I also believe that DJI may be growing the market as well with many writing on here it’s their first e-bike.
They’re undoubtedly bringing e-bikes into the heads of people who hadn’t previously thought about one too, just look at YouTube, they may visit a bike shop and leave with something different.
Anecdotal, but I saw some stand up paddle boarders a few years back on these boards made by ‘Red’. It piqued my interest, and I purchased a paddle board, but it wasn’t made by Red.
That's a good point.
Though surely when Unno developed the Mith with the Bosch Motor. Then DJI come out before the release. So Unno completely redesign the frame to fit the DJI. That must ring alarm bells at Bosch.
Bogdan_CH
Active member
No law can limit the power it's just moving this to a different class like mopeds etc.
Passing over the DJI fanboyism which is over spiling in this topic, it's better if the motor manufacturers agree / propose a certain limitation that everyone really sticks to it rather than this being imposed by government.
As well inovation = more power? This is just pure stupid. There are places way more important that is a lot of room to innovate
I don’t know why Unno did that, their business I guess, but at this stage it’s a USP for them as very few bikes have the Avinox system.
Unno are a high end, limited production company, and as they likely hadn’t started full production of any frames at that point doesn’t sound like too big a deal to tweak the top and down tubes along with the motor mount. Geometry was probably already set.
More power is not innovation. More power from less motor and battery absolutely is. That's why DJI is moving into more bike frames.
The smaller and lighter motors and batteries are, whilst not compromising on power, means the more weight that can be used to improve and strengthen other areas.
Secondly. I've shown photos of the Unno and Amflow to mountain bikers, and they thought they were Analogue MTBs. That also is innovation.
I remember loving the Trek Fuel Exe, because of it's beautiful slim lines. Then I rode one, and I'm sorry. The power compromise was just far too much, one you have ridden a full power EMTB.
No need to be sorry, we all like different things. I have a full power e-bike as well as a 1st Gen Levo SL and a mid power SX, and I far prefer riding the latter two.
I’m buying and riding an assisted bicycle, not a lawn mower.
Who knows what will happen if the EU regulators take a proper look at it.
How can you justify 750w of power when pro cyclists will do what? 500w max for an hour, they might decide 250w was what they originally intended so that should be the peak.
I don't think the argument of copying regulators in other areas is a makes any sense either it's not like they will up the EU speed limit because USA does it one way, why should the EU copy the USA power limit.
How can you justify 750w of power when pro cyclists will do what? 500w max for an hour, they might decide 250w was what they originally intended so that should be the peak.
I don't think the argument of copying regulators in other areas is a makes any sense either it's not like they will up the EU speed limit because USA does it one way, why should the EU copy the USA power limit.
calnearlyebike
Member
I don’t see what’s so hard to understand. E-bikes are becoming so powerful they are potentially no longer seen as mountains bikes. So you’ll loose all the benefits and rights to ride them in the good spots . Conspiracy theories or not . You won’t be able to ride them on Mtb trails ?!
You say it's not hard to understand but how do you define "so powerful"? Is it the exact limits that Bosch have just released on their latest update?
The controversy is all the bad press DJI is getting for 'pushing too far' acting 'reckless' and 'not innovating' for working to the current framework. The media attention may force regulators into action who knows what the result will be - a 400w limit?
Would it even be discussed so much if the other big motor makers had a motor with similar spec to DJI ready to go.
The controversy is all the bad press DJI is getting for 'pushing too far' acting 'reckless' and 'not innovating' for working to the current framework. The media attention may force regulators into action who knows what the result will be - a 400w limit?
Would it even be discussed so much if the other big motor makers had a motor with similar spec to DJI ready to go.
Again, other manufacturers have similar power motors (in Nm anyway, which is probably more useful with an assist limit) ie Specialized with the 101/111Nm motors and now Bosch with the 100Nm upgrade, so it can’t just be that.
DJI have come out with a ‘system’ that’s pretty attractive and seems to work very well, there should be no argument about that.
But, on balance, I probably trust Bosch more than DJI on this whole topic. The latter is out to disrupt the market whereas Bosch is probably out to make sure there will still be one and it isn’t regulated into extinction or made so onerous that people just go straight to motorbikes.
If it wasn’t the Avinox motor that got industry debate going, it would likely have been another one, but we would have got here eventually.
And before anybody gets defensive, it’s just my layman opinion and personal view, don’t take it personally and no need to play the man here.
DJI have come out with a ‘system’ that’s pretty attractive and seems to work very well, there should be no argument about that.
But, on balance, I probably trust Bosch more than DJI on this whole topic. The latter is out to disrupt the market whereas Bosch is probably out to make sure there will still be one and it isn’t regulated into extinction or made so onerous that people just go straight to motorbikes.
If it wasn’t the Avinox motor that got industry debate going, it would likely have been another one, but we would have got here eventually.
And before anybody gets defensive, it’s just my layman opinion and personal view, don’t take it personally and no need to play the man here.
calnearlyebike
Member
well I honestly don't know. If the current trend keeps happening at what point is enough ? At what point is it not as assisted bike ? When I went on a speed awareness course a few years ago I had no idea that a lot of the speed restrictions and safety measure are worked out by mathematics and physics. At certain points the percentage of survival ect tilt massively in certain ways. If you got Y speed it takes X to stop. Regulators will have definitions and guidelines governing all this. So when I ''so powerful'' my definition doesn't matter. Out on interest mine would be when the bike produces power beyond what a person could ever hope to achieve . So a bike making you lance Armstrong is absolutely fine. making you two lance Armstrongs is not. It's no longer a bike. It's a motorised vehicle. So sorta now.
'' Would it even be discussed so much if the other big motor makers had a motor with similar spec to DJI ready to go.'' you can't base an argument on an unknown. It's a meaningless statement .
LeftItLancs
Active member
It's quite obvious that existing legislation has not kept pace with technology and how companies are utilizing that technology, and as is often the case. A full laden cargo bike classed as an EAPC in the UK (full access to cycle and bus lanes etc) with 1,000 peak power, is obviously a safety risk in the hands of an inexperienced rider. Often working in the gig economy on minimum wage with high staff turnover and inadequate training and exploitative employers will not give a damn about rider safety.
Inexperienced EAPC riders, on road or off, should not have access to peak power that can propel them to 15.5 mph in a few cranks of the pedals. Not only just for safety reasons but also because manufacturers will have moved the goalposts, so wide, existing legislation then becomes meaningless.
It won't stop at 1,000 watts peak power, there will always be the next "innovation" that pushes the boundaries further.
Without cooperation, the market can not be trusted to police itself and legislators will step in sooner rather than later.
Inexperienced EAPC riders, on road or off, should not have access to peak power that can propel them to 15.5 mph in a few cranks of the pedals. Not only just for safety reasons but also because manufacturers will have moved the goalposts, so wide, existing legislation then becomes meaningless.
It won't stop at 1,000 watts peak power, there will always be the next "innovation" that pushes the boundaries further.
Without cooperation, the market can not be trusted to police itself and legislators will step in sooner rather than later.
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On my commute I'm apparently averaging ~ 210W with a a peak typically around 600-800W. And I'm no Geraint Thomas. So 250W continuous with a peak of 750W sounds equivalent to a fairly typical rider.
The EU 250W nominal was from a time of brushed motors.
Manufacturers, of ebikes as well as the individual motors, have a huge interest in harmonised rules (that's a core point of the EU itself) as it makes life simpler and thus cheaper.
*If* the EU decides on revision of the rules in introducing a max peak power (either replacing the nominal power rule or in addition), manufacturers will lobby for it to be 750W the same as class 1 in most US states.
