Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?

[Greeno]

Post #266 hit it right on the head.
I think the Mods should start a poll on what is the biggest issue relating to potentially any new regs that pop up.
1: Max speed should be set at ( fill in the blank ).
2: Max torque uh… just because.
3: Max wattage to limet power assist.

I have a question for the masses that are leaning to enforce a Max speed limit.
Say it is set at 20mph everywhere just to pick a number, do the conversion to kph if needed.

Max speed being max speed right shouldn’t that # apply to non assist as well as assist?

I mean if your bombing downhill with no motor assist your still potentially a threat by going faster than the posted speed limit.
Motor doesent have any bearing at that point.
So with that being said why shouldn’t regular non e-bike riders be held to the same standard As far as “max speed” is concerned If it is a legitimate “ safety concern”

I probably ride 3-4 days a week and I can’t tell who has the higher wattage or higher torque bike.
It’s ridiculous to think someone who say is riding an Amflow ( wish I was ) is a bigger threat to anyone but himself.
I regularly ride with 2 other guys who’s bikes are not deristricted and there is no f…ing difference in riding style or ability.

I used to race on the road way back when and the saying we had was it’s the motor on top of the bike and not the bike that wins races.
So maybe we should regulate road bikes too. All for one right? In the name of safety give me a break.

Who came up with 100nm of torque and 750w max.
Bafang has had that for 10 years or more and nobody said boo about that.

There is bike shops up in Los Angeles, Boston, and Canada that I know of that have been selling bikes from 1000-2200w using the M620 motor.
Crickets is all I have heard about those guys.
Heavier bikes is what kept them out of the crosshairs as far as the established brands were concerned.

Lets pick some different #’s, say 127nm and let’s go, I don’t know maybe 1076w and a max speed of 31mph.
Are there really going to more accidents because of these limits? Nah it’s just sour grapes.
Not having them at that “summit” was interesting.
Let er rip…

 

[Astro66]

Cool story...

But you didn't answer the question, I'm not debating demand for Amflow. Can you prove your statement below or not?

So. You understand. If people buy the Amflow. They are buying it instead of another brand. ? Or will you not concede that ?

If it wasn't for the Amflow. I was going to buy a new Shimano Motor, because I wanted more peak power than the EP6 could provide. I literally made a thread about it.

 

[JP-NZ]

So. You understand. If people buy the Amflow. They are buying it instead of another brand. ? Or will you not concede that ?

If it wasn't for the Amflow. I was going to buy a new Shimano Motor. I literally made a thread about it.

Whataboutery isin't helping. I asked a simple clarification of your're quite wide ranging statement.

All I'm asking for is some evidence for your statement, if you don't have any its fine, its your opinion.

Just most people on this forum I'd like to think make educated statements with some form of evidence.

1) EMTB buyers are not buying the current stock of bikes that were planned and manufactured before DJI magically appeared late last year.

 

[Astro66]

Just most people on this forum I'd like to think make educated statements with some form of evidence.

You won't concede that evidence of high Amflow sales, is evidence they are being bought instead of other brands. And that is why this conversation is pointless.

When you debate. There needs to be a base of reality. If we cannot agree on a base of reality. The debate is pointless.

Thx.

 

[JP-NZ]

You won't concede that evidence of high Amflow sales, is evidence they are being bought instead of other brands. And that is why this conversation is pointless.
Thx.

Thx for your're opinion which is quite blatantly wrong.

1) EMTB buyers are not buying the current stock of bikes that were planned and manufactured before DJI magically appeared late last year.

 

[Astro66]

Thx for your're opinion which is quite blatantly wrong.

Thx for your're opinion which is quite blatantly wrong.

We can both be children. Let's not.

 

[JP-NZ]

Thx for your're opinion which is quite blatantly wrong.

We can both be children.

Hahaha cute.

I never shared an opinion, I just asked for some evidence on your statement

Only one of us is being a child.

Anyway, enjoy Sydney trails where I expect every EMTB will soon be an Amflow.

 

[Astro66]

Anyway, enjoy Sydney trails where I expect every EMTB will soon be an Amflow.

I find that if sales are good. Spare Parts are good. That's my only interest in seeing sales figures.

Shimano parts are so cheap here because of our proximity to Asia and they are widely used. So when China is Australia's biggest trading partner, and we have a Free Trade Agreement with them. And they are also geographically close, so shipping is super cheap. Obviously people are going to buy good quality high end products from them.

What I don't want is Corporations degrading DJI's high end quality products to protect their Corporation. Hence my participation in this thread.

 

[Greeno]

B

 

[LeftItLancs]

Max speed should be set at ( fill in the blank )

In the UK, the recent government consultation looking at raising the current cap of 250 watts to 500 and allow throttles up to 15.5 mph, was not taken forward.

The breakdown is quite interesting, for example 51% were against lifting it to 500 watts, and just over 47% supported it.

Safety concerns, current rules on the classification and use of EAPC and staying aligned with EU regulation appear to be among the main factors.

Fundamentally, while we note the potential benefits to some individuals and organisations, there was a significant lack of evidence provided in response to the consultation to substantiate this. This lack of evidence also means that we cannot rule out the concerns about the proposals and research will therefore be required.

Proposed changes to legislation for electrically assisted pedal cycles – outcome

www.gov.uk

 

[LeftItLancs]

From the same link.

The UK e-bike market size is expected to be approximately £401.1 million in 2024 and is forecasted to grow to about £666.3 million by 2029. The information about the UK e-bike market size for 2024 and its projected growth to 2029, including the compound annual growth rate (CAGR), comes from a report on the United Kingdom e-bike market size and share analysis featured on Mordor Intelligence

 

[Astro66]

In the UK, the recent government consultation looking at raising the current cap of 250 watts to 500 and allow throttles up to 15.5 mph, was not taken forward.

The breakdown is quite interesting, for example 51% were against lifting it to 500 watts, and just over 47% supported it.

Safety concerns, current rules on the classification and use of EAPC and staying aligned with EU regulation appear to be among the main factors.

Proposed changes to legislation for electrically assisted pedal cycles – outcome

www.gov.uk

Australia has a history of following the UK. So I'm OK with that.

 

[Fangs2k]

“What tyres for riding on straw?”…

Seriously, whoever said it was a pointless debate in a recent post got it about right, we’re 10 pages in and people are still getting confused about speed limits versus assist limits and taking the local bike shop owners casual chat as gospel and extrapolating it to the whole e-bike market.

It’s been philosophised that the people who ‘invented mountain biking’ would be disappointed with how we’re allowing emtbs to be neutered, and killing the freedom they bring.

Putting aside the wider debate about when does a bicycle stop becoming a bicycle and more like a motorbike, what will kill the emtb scene here in the UK at least will be conflict over trail access. Walkers and that basic right of more vulnerable people to use trails will always get priority over bicycles, especially electric ones.

I’m on a couple of Electric Vehicle forums, you could substitute ‘Amflow’ for ‘Tesla’ in many of the threads and the same arguments would be playing out. The DJI Avinox motor system looks great, no question, but it isn’t the best thing since somebody decided a loaf would be easier to use cut into slices.

People are excited by the power, they also seem to be incredibly defensive of any perceived criticism of their chosen rocket ship, but somehow they also seem unable to look beyond that and can’t or won’t see the wider implications for emtbs as a result.

This isn’t about racing, not many of us do that, it isn’t about protecting Bosch as I’m absolutely certain they could make anything they turned their hand to including a 12.5kW ‘Sur-Ron a like’ if that’s where the legitimate market was at.

For me, it’s about the essence of riding a bike in the great outdoors and the small motor making that more accessible to more people, and more ‘fun’. I think of my e-bike as taking the misery out of hills, perhaps others want to go up them even more quickly. That’s potentially the issue, everybody expects a bicycle to go faster downhill, most people understand the concept of gravity and will surely have swung a leg over a bicycle at some point in their lives and felt the exhilaration of gravity on a road at least.

DJI have disrupted the market for sure and that’s a good thing, and triggered a lot of debate about motor power etc, but it hasn’t rendered the rest of the e-bike market obsolete and actually might have piqued some more interest in it. Just a guess, but there’s a few times I’ve read that the Amflow is somebody’s first e-bike, so seems to be attracting a lot of first time customers too. Perhaps those customers think a little differently too as they presumably were attracted to the power in the first place.

There is a very real risk that e-bikes could be thrown into the same basket as motorbikes if the industry and ourselves aren’t careful, at the moment we would appear to be sleepwalking into the future.

Whatever you think about the recent ‘power summit’ and however much you wish they weren’t pointing at e-bikes and asking if they’re getting too powerful, it’s great that somebody is talking about it.

There’s room for everybody, who wouldn’t want the Nicolai that Rob tested recently, even in ‘that’ colour!

 

[Mikerb]

There is only one common objective shared by the ebike industry and riders of EPACs of all types, and that is to protect the status of EPACs as bicycles. It is not the ebike industry however that make those decisions.
The regulatory authorities in the US, Europe and other countries have their own set of priorities and are invariably responsible for setting rules for all classes of motorised transport.......so electrically powered cycles have to fit in the overall classification.

So what are the priorities of the regulatory bodies? There is certainly some element of wishing to promote active mobility/cycling but more importantly ( for them) ensuring safety and clear water between electric motor powered cycles and mopeds/motorcycles. Safety is ensured throughout motorised classifications by type approval and testing, speed, and licencing ......all under the umbrella of road traffic laws and enforcement.
So I'm afraid many of the comments here fail to meet any criteria those regulatory authorities consider.
The various industry bodies working together are best placed to further and protect our interests ( and theirs of course).

 

[calnearlyebike]

this conspiratorial thinking about people motives is infecting everything. Other companies could easily keep developing in the direction of more power. It's recently just become apparent that it's not a fruitful direction. Legislation is made by those who hold power and thats traditional walkers , horse riders, nation trusts , water companies. Mountain bikers have in more recent years started to spread and dominated certain landscapes due to the lower barrier on entry with fitness that ebikes allow. Remote spots, steep spots, repeated lapping of spots. Heavier bikes that dentists cant lift over fences so destroy !! damage damage damage. Unlimited and ever more spreading trails. This is UK specific but the access we have to Forrests and hills close to cities are full of other members of the public. Stop being so fucking selfish and think the whole world has to deal with YOU zipping round like lance Armstrong. It's clearly common sense to anyone other than power devotees that an artificial cap on speed is sensible on tight paths with public on them.

Yes !! People shouldn't fly down routes either incase people are walking up them. It's equally unacceptable when rippers fly down unregulated trails unable to stop. It's not some conspiracy from the top that doesn't want you and your mates to rip about. It's just guess what..........the world doesn't agree with you.

 

[calnearlyebike]

Well 3 days ago I put a deposit down on a Santa Cruz Bullit XO. A big outlay for me. My dream bike.
Then last night I read this article and now I’m feeling some buyers remorse. I’m confused and I guess worried I’ve made a bad decision. Esp since it’s a 4-5 month wait for delivery.
Can anyone reassure me that I haven’t wasted all this cash and my new bike won’t be completely outdated this time next year?!!

that bike is gone be so fucking sick now and into the future. Youl just upgrade it and change it as it ages over the seasons. every component on that bike will last years and years if you learn how to look after them. Hold your nerve big boy. she's on the way.

 

[Plyphon]

Got any actual proof of that or just the usual biased POV?

I'd say new bikes from Transition, Trek, Specialized, Norco, Santa Cruz, Cube, Focus etc are selling plenty well enough judging by this forum.

You've only got to look at retailers to see the deep discounts available - I think it was BikeTart or one of the other bike ones had 'Santa Cruz sale event' all on their socials about a month ago with all models in stock.

 

[Mikerb]

You've only got to look at retailers to see the deep discounts available - I think it was BikeTart or one of the other bike ones had 'Santa Cruz sale event' all on their socials about a month ago with all models in stock.

Price discounting is the result of many factors. Many brands are still overstocked having ordered too many bikes thinking the sales volumes during the pandemic would continue. Not only did the "return to the office" radically reduce consumer interest in leisure activity, many western countries have since suffered deep economic downturns and even recession, and many consumers have experienced increased cost of living.

There are in general 2 classifications of buyer. New market entrants, and existing customers looking to change for whatever reason. The second category is the largest I would think as far as EMTB is concerned.

My opinion is that the cost to change at full RRP outweights the benefits............discounting is one way the brands can try to change that balance.........finance deals is another. A third and possibly far more effective incentive would be part exchange deals, but I am not aware any brand has resorted to that as yet. Some of the existing and planned motor and mode enhancements may also help but I fear EMTB pricing in general is too high for the most of the potential market.

 

[Mikerb]

this conspiratorial thinking about people motives is infecting everything. Other companies could easily keep developing in the direction of more power. It's recently just become apparent that it's not a fruitful direction. Legislation is made by those who hold power and thats traditional walkers , horse riders, nation trusts , water companies. Mountain bikers have in more recent years started to spread and dominated certain landscapes due to the lower barrier on entry with fitness that ebikes allow. Remote spots, steep spots, repeated lapping of spots. Heavier bikes that dentists cant lift over fences so destroy !! damage damage damage. Unlimited and ever more spreading trails. This is UK specific but the access we have to Forrests and hills close to cities are full of other members of the public. Stop being so fucking selfish and think the whole world has to deal with YOU zipping round like lance Armstrong. It's clearly common sense to anyone other than power devotees that an artificial cap on speed is sensible on tight paths with public on them.

Yes !! People shouldn't fly down routes either incase people are walking up them. It's equally unacceptable when rippers fly down unregulated trails unable to stop. It's not some conspiracy from the top that doesn't want you and your mates to rip about. It's just guess what..........the world doesn't agree with you.

correct but the need for clear EPAC specification has not just become apparent. Certainly in Europe the brands and various trade bodies have lobbied for years that "nomimal power rating" when referring to a brushless electric motor is largely meaningless and that specifying maximum power was what was needed, prefereably on a global scale such that the component supplier industry also had a uniform market to address. In fact the European brands largely stuck to the max power specified by Austria shortly after the EU Commission set out their "standard" for EPACS. That limit was 600 watts. For whatever reason Austria removed that specification from their regulation 2 years ago. Meanwhile Federal Law in the US also set a max power for Class1/EPACs at 750w back in 2022. Individual states can however modify the Federal Law and most have 3 Electric bike categories but the 750w max power applies to all 3.

So setting max power is far from being a recent development.

 

[Fangs2k]

My opinion is that the cost to change at full RRP outweights the benefits............discounting is one way the brands can try to change that balance.........finance deals is another. A third and possibly far more effective incentive would be part exchange deals, but I am not aware any brand has resorted to that as yet. Some of the existing and planned motor and mode enhancements may also help but I fear EMTB pricing in general is too high for the most of the potential market.

Here in the UK at least, ‘cycle to work’ schemes are shifting a lot of bikes, just about all large bike shops are part of one scheme or another.

Higher rate tax payers are effectively getting 42% off a bike, might be even more popular now office working has become more popular.

 

[Robin Grant]

A really insightful video from Alex Bike Tester (AKA @notaninfluencer) featuring a recording of Bosch eBike Systems' CEO, Claus Fleischer, talking about the history and reasoning behind the proposed 750W limit at this week's launch of Bosch's new power update for the CX5 motor in Riva del Garda, Italy:

 

[ZR1]

A really insightful video from Alex Bike Tester (AKA @notaninfluencer) featuring a recording of Bosch eBike Systems' CEO, Claus Fleischer, talking about the history and reasoning behind the proposed 750W limit at this week's launch of Bosch's new power update for the CX5 motor in Riva del Garda, Italy:

Nice to have the 250w rule explained, so much confusion around it.

I do agree with the argument for limits for the % of pedal assistance so the cranks arent just easy throttle switches, I'm still less convinced with the power limit or why it should be 750w

I guess you have to be a bit click baity with titles for youtube but I'm happy DJI are bringing us the next generation in terms of battery size, integration and reducing weight, no one disputes that bosch could do the same but they dont half take their time and drip feed their upgrades.

 

[flash]

Big difference is, a 1500bhp car doesn't cause any wear on a road more than a 60bhp car
Same wear and tear on the road

Off-road the more power the tendency is it will cause more wear on a trail.
Of course it's not black and white, as power is nothing without control, but generally the higher the power output to more likely there is for it to cause more trail erosion

No study has shown this to be true. Even when comparing a normal bike to any eMTB, additional wear isn’t a thing. It depends far more of how you ride, not what you ride.

A good XC rider can peak at over 1500 watts. We’re not blaming them for extra trail wear. Poor technique and party tricks like schralping do more damage to trails than motor assist. Most eMTB riders aren’t losing traction on uphill sections, are they?

Gordon

 

[flash]

A really insightful video from Alex Bike Tester (AKA @notaninfluencer) featuring a recording of Bosch eBike Systems' CEO, Claus Fleischer, talking about the history and reasoning behind the proposed 750W limit at this week's launch of Bosch's new power update for the CX5 motor in Riva del Garda, Italy:

Alexbiketester is a muppet. He’s had an anti-DJI agenda since before the bike was even released. He’s loving this stuff because it plays into his hands. Ha;f of what he says isn’t correct any way. Ignore.

Gordon

 

[flash]

This is why Bosch wants a 750W limit. Their thermals can’t handle more than that.


A really interesting independent comparison between the motor manufacturers.

Gordon

 

[Robin Grant]

Alexbiketester is a muppet. He’s had an anti-DJI agenda since before the bike was even released. He’s loving this stuff because it plays into his hands. Ha;f of what he says isn’t correct any way. Ignore.

Gordon

Gordon - as I say in my post, this is a recording of Bosch eBike Systems' CEO, Claus Fleischer, talking about the history and reasoning behind the proposed 750W limit at this week's launch of Bosch's new power update for the CX5 motor in Riva del Garda, Italy. Alex doesn't say anything at all in the section of the video I've linked to.

 

[flash]

Price discounting is the result of many factors. Many brands are still overstocked having ordered too many bikes thinking the sales volumes during the pandemic would continue. Not only did the "return to the office" radically reduce consumer interest in leisure activity, many western countries have since suffered deep economic downturns and even recession, and many consumers have experienced increased cost of living.

There are in general 2 classifications of buyer. New market entrants, and existing customers looking to change for whatever reason. The second category is the largest I would think as far as EMTB is concerned.

My opinion is that the cost to change at full RRP outweights the benefits............discounting is one way the brands can try to change that balance.........finance deals is another. A third and possibly far more effective incentive would be part exchange deals, but I am not aware any brand has resorted to that as yet. Some of the existing and planned motor and mode enhancements may also help but I fear EMTB pricing in general is too high for the most of the potential market.

It’ll be market dependant but here in Oz I’d suggest there are three levels of eMTB buyer. Those that can’t afford. Those that can and are buying. And those that already have one, some of whom upgrade regularly and some who don’t. The first two categories might be affected by price drops. But since the Carbon PL is already cheaper than many of those I’d say they’re discounting just to compete.

Here anyway, there’s no doubt JI deliberately and aggressively undercut pretty much every one to get market share. Merida did the same thing here in 2019. It worked for them. Every second bike was either a Merida or Giant. It’s working for DJI. As they gain market share they’re put their prices up more and more to maximise profit.

Gordon

 

[Bogdan_CH]

This is why Bosch wants a 750W limit. Their thermals can’t handle more than that.


A really interesting independent comparison between the motor manufacturers.

Gordon

That's all you understand from that video? Did you check the graph from DJI?

 

[Ridgydidge]

Alexbiketester is a muppet.

…and here’s me thinking ‘muppet’ was a term of endearment around here.

 

[Astro66]

At least the Italians are continuing to innovate. 250 watt rated motor, able to achieve 900 watts peak or with a bigger battery, 1200 watts. All whilst still limiting speed to 25kph and weighing 2.9kgs. Amazing engineering.

But if Bosch get their way. Innovation dies ...... might as well throw this motor in the bin. This would be so messed up if Bosch get their way.