Emailsucks98
Well-known member
YES! Hopefully they will release a recumbent version with fairing & drop-bars- gotta get those KOMs!
Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
One of the faster guys in northern Ca, on tight turns in a steep canyon, owns the place on a multistrada with a slick on the rear. Guy always has that front wheel straight up and down. Also one of the fastest at the track, at Laguna seca his front wheel is always up. dude is an animal
They have such, we ride with a paraplegic that has a moto version. Does 30 mp easily with his throttle. Awesome to see him out on the trails. Use to hold the #1 plate for desert racing.
Robin Grant
Member
Neil Donoghue and Rich Payne cover the debate (without giving much background or even being properly across the facts) on this week's EMBN Show:
EMBN are sponsored by Canyon and Whyte which run magority Bosch and a few Shimano Motors. It's difficult to not see bias when Bosch are raising their Peak Power to 750 watts, and 750 watts is what a German Magazine backed think tank decide, should be the regulated peak power.
EMBN has zero position to comment on this when they financially biased to support Bosch Motor Systems.
It's Russia and Ukraine all over again. The Germans want the regs changed and Bosch gives up nothing. And the Chinese in DJI must give up their new motor performance, when it was produced completely within the regulation.
And someone needs to explain to me how you can have a power arms race, when the rated power of the motor is regulated to 250 watts. It's either regulated, or a race. It cannot be both.
And lastly. Neil is completely wrong in wanting to raise the speed limit and lower power. Speed causes injuries to be more serious. Not power. Speed increases your stopping distance. Not power. Speed means you carry more energy if you collide with a pedestrian or tree. Not power. Energy is proportional to Velocity Squared. Double speed and you carry four times more energy. Four times the stopping distance. So it's madness to want Ebikes going faster, if the object is to appease Govt, Property and Trail regulators.
These people are just spouting populous click bait as they know it will appease their sponsors, without upsetting their majority fan base. Extremely Trumpian behavior.
EMBN has zero position to comment on this when they financially biased to support Bosch Motor Systems.
It's Russia and Ukraine all over again. The Germans want the regs changed and Bosch gives up nothing. And the Chinese in DJI must give up their new motor performance, when it was produced completely within the regulation.
And someone needs to explain to me how you can have a power arms race, when the rated power of the motor is regulated to 250 watts. It's either regulated, or a race. It cannot be both.
And lastly. Neil is completely wrong in wanting to raise the speed limit and lower power. Speed causes injuries to be more serious. Not power. Speed increases your stopping distance. Not power. Speed means you carry more energy if you collide with a pedestrian or tree. Not power. Energy is proportional to Velocity Squared. Double speed and you carry four times more energy. Four times the stopping distance. So it's madness to want Ebikes going faster, if the object is to appease Govt, Property and Trail regulators.
These people are just spouting populous click bait as they know it will appease their sponsors, without upsetting their majority fan base. Extremely Trumpian behavior.
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xtraman122
Well-known member
That 250w thing needs to just go away, it’s completely meaningless. Clearly motors can put out out way more power at peak and even do so for more than any sort of “burst”, most of these motors are peaking 600-1000 watts and can do so for multiple minutes, yet are “rated” for 250 watts.
I get the general idea coming up with a limit, the line should probably be drawn somewhere if people can’t agree speed is enough, but it’s obviously well above 250 watts and should just be based on peak power.
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If you just base the regulation on peak power. Then everyone will run 750 watt rated motors, and with the ability to set the assist to 750 watts all the time. That is not going to produce natural feeling EMTBs.
250 watts motors peaking at 1000 watts are not producing the 1000 watts for the entire cycle. Everyone riding the Amflow comments on how natural the power delivery feels. That is only made possible by the 42 point speed sensor and the manipulation of the power where the cyclist is generating the most and least power. That is why they have been rated the best climbing bike of 2025 by a significant margin. Power without control is crap.
Using a continuously rated motor at a continuous power will feel like you are riding a motorbike, especially at 750 watts. I am speaking from experience of riding a 750 watt continuous rated motor. It's fun. But it's not cycling. And not where EMTBs should go.
As I have said before. Set a lower rated power, then allow engineers to create a power profile to give the EMTB the best performance. The point of the motor in an EMTB, is to help with climbing. It's not really important when descending.
xtraman122
Well-known member
Nobody is saying the peak power should be used all the time or that it would feel correct in anyway, my point was that if people want to make laws to limit power, clearly the current one wasn’t it because the 250 watt number was left up to much interpretation and essentially was thrown out the window.
Actually there is a clear indicator of a motor's rated power. At least in the Industrial sector. And that is it's ability to cope with temperature rise when running at a power setting.
If the motors being used are not 250 watt rated. It would be very easy to prove. Just run them at a percentage above their rated power continuously and measure temperature rise.
To give an example. A 5kW electric motor, when producing 5kW continuously will warm up to about 50-60 degrees internally, depending on ambient temps. Then plateau. But if you run it at 7kW continuously. The motor will continue heating past these temperatures and possibly melt the windings.
In Industrial Motor Controllers. With smaller motors. We actually have a algorithm that calculates the heat generated in the motor based on the motors factory rated power, current and a couple of other parameters I won't go into. That way you don't need a thermistor to measure the windings temperature. But if you did install a thermistor. It would be very easy to confirm the motor's rating was correct.
In a simplified form. The test for EU certification for a 250 watt rated motor, could be as simple as. Provide test data where the motor was run at 500 watts continuously for "x" mins, and show the motor overheated by "y" degrees. There doesn't need to be any "Open for Interpretation".
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What you're describing is actually the regulation for the 250W nominal output. It's all about heat. Any e-MTB from a major brand released meets these standards. There's a CE (EU) and tick (australia) label on my Amflow. That means they say they meet the standard. The only other regulation is assist speed. I'd like to see us adopt the 32kmh limit on trail and 45kmh (class 3) for road use.
Gordon
Yep. I agree. If the Bosch motor cannot cope with 1000 watts peak, whilst still remaining a 250 watt rated motor. It's because it's an inferior design in either the motor, or the software, or both. And the fact that DJI have been able to develop a 250 watt motor that can. Well ..... congrats to them.
And the answer is not to dumb everyone down to the inferior design. Let the innovation spread through the manufacturers and let the speed limit keep the regulators happy. I cannot understand why making EMTBs better at climbing, as shown by the Amflow at the E-Magazine Best EMTBs Awards, is suddenly a problem to regulators, when the EU still mandates a 25kph limit on Pedelec bikes.
The worst that will happen is EMTBs will go uphill at 25kph more consistently. And in a section where you can achieve 25kph uphill. There will be no reason any powered EMTB can go downhill at 25kph. So what's the difference ?
Anyway. That's just my opinion.
This would be a concern for me. The regulators making the EBike rules are not the same regulators making the Land Usage Regulations. Up the speed limit and Land Usage regulators would need to review the risk. And they may decide that Ebike have crossed the threshold of risk they can manage. And Ebikes will be excluded from areas bicycles are allowed, like they do in the US. There is currently zero regulations like that in my State. If you can ride a bicycle. You can ride an EU Compliant EMTB.
What I will say. None of the Land Usage Regulators are looking at Peak Motor Power. They only care what speed the motors cut-out at.
Had my 1st E=MTB (YT Decoy) for around 6 months
I live in Athens and ride on local mountains.
Usual route is around 900m of really rocky ascent
With 17%+ incline in places
I'm fat at just under 100kg, have 1 lung and generally i'm not in good fitness
Yet i still use trail mode 99% of the time off-road, as Boost mode is just to harsh over football sized rocks.
Even after 6 months Boost mode still makes me giggle, but trail mode is more than enough to drag my fat unfit ass up some pretty substantial hills.
Granted trail or boost is still the same 85NM, but my point is that i don't see how any more power is useful outside of a marketing dick measuring exercise.
It got to be the same in motorbikes, for road use anything over a sports 600 got to be pointless after the R1 came out.
Unless you're racing does it matter if you make it up the local hill 16 seconds faster?
If Shimano came out with a update to give 100NM, i wouldn't bother
85NM is more than enough and it gives me just enough range to do 32km, 900m of assent, with a bit of Boost mode left for the road section on the way home.
Cheers
Mark
I live in Athens and ride on local mountains.
Usual route is around 900m of really rocky ascent
With 17%+ incline in places
I'm fat at just under 100kg, have 1 lung and generally i'm not in good fitness
Yet i still use trail mode 99% of the time off-road, as Boost mode is just to harsh over football sized rocks.
Even after 6 months Boost mode still makes me giggle, but trail mode is more than enough to drag my fat unfit ass up some pretty substantial hills.
Granted trail or boost is still the same 85NM, but my point is that i don't see how any more power is useful outside of a marketing dick measuring exercise.
It got to be the same in motorbikes, for road use anything over a sports 600 got to be pointless after the R1 came out.
Unless you're racing does it matter if you make it up the local hill 16 seconds faster?
If Shimano came out with a update to give 100NM, i wouldn't bother
85NM is more than enough and it gives me just enough range to do 32km, 900m of assent, with a bit of Boost mode left for the road section on the way home.
Cheers
Mark
With a fixed max assist speed, higher peak output means:
+ improvement for heavier riders
+ increased acceleration
In the context of MTB, that's only relevant for uphill and to some extent on flat.
+ better for cargo-bikes
On the downside:
- increased power consumption/less range
- shorter motor life expectancy
I'm personally not so interested in increased peak power, seems to have become a numbers game for marketing. My Bosch gen4 (peaks around 600W I believe) is more than adequate despite my not insignificant body mass. Downhill and on the flat the motor output peaks at 0W in any case. I'd like to see improved water resistance, reliability, life expectancy, and reduced weight as future improvements.
+ improvement for heavier riders
+ increased acceleration
In the context of MTB, that's only relevant for uphill and to some extent on flat.
+ better for cargo-bikes
On the downside:
- increased power consumption/less range
- shorter motor life expectancy
I'm personally not so interested in increased peak power, seems to have become a numbers game for marketing. My Bosch gen4 (peaks around 600W I believe) is more than adequate despite my not insignificant body mass. Downhill and on the flat the motor output peaks at 0W in any case. I'd like to see improved water resistance, reliability, life expectancy, and reduced weight as future improvements.
JohnR
Member
^^ Spot on.
I would add to that, manufactures could use the R&D and that corresponding money to use higher spec components and parts.
Durability and weatherproof.
To each his own. I just call it fun and that is the reason I ride
mmcarm
Member
We have millions of miles of shared access pathways. They are called roads and it has boiled down to speed limits are accepted by billions as the appropriate regulation. Power in general is not limited, speed and aggressive/risky driving is regulated and seems a good fit for trails also.
Something I didn't see mentioned in the article and debate is power and speed capability in an injury emergency provide valuable time for access to emergency services. Taking someone to a trailhead or climbing or riding to a spot where emergency services can be contacted can save lives. This can be for a rider or anyone else out in the outdoors. Also works for riding with friends who's equipment becomes disabled. A quicker trip to trailhead can be really useful and helpful.
We can make 1500hp cars, they are allowed everywhere with the typical speed and dangerous driving restrictions. I don't see a fundamental safety argument difference for trails. Speed limits in general and possibly limits when passing other riders or trail users.
Power limits look like a market protection collusion. Really ugly and sad. Have seen comments for many years that Bosch was involved in lobbying the EU and other regions for limiting ebike capabilities on roads as well likely because they could see revenue losses in their auto parts supply business with transition to more ebike miles vs car miles used. Seems likely given how aggressive the ebike regulations are in Bosch's home region. Very disappointing.
Something I didn't see mentioned in the article and debate is power and speed capability in an injury emergency provide valuable time for access to emergency services. Taking someone to a trailhead or climbing or riding to a spot where emergency services can be contacted can save lives. This can be for a rider or anyone else out in the outdoors. Also works for riding with friends who's equipment becomes disabled. A quicker trip to trailhead can be really useful and helpful.
We can make 1500hp cars, they are allowed everywhere with the typical speed and dangerous driving restrictions. I don't see a fundamental safety argument difference for trails. Speed limits in general and possibly limits when passing other riders or trail users.
Power limits look like a market protection collusion. Really ugly and sad. Have seen comments for many years that Bosch was involved in lobbying the EU and other regions for limiting ebike capabilities on roads as well likely because they could see revenue losses in their auto parts supply business with transition to more ebike miles vs car miles used. Seems likely given how aggressive the ebike regulations are in Bosch's home region. Very disappointing.
I do so love a convoluted conspiracy theory
mmcarm
Member
What's so convoluted? Definitely understand EU is hyper regulated but ebike regulations there seem even more than I'd expect.
What is the theory? Bosch have said they have been pushing for regulation for a while. This ZIV group limit statement comes in reaction to DJI, a new entrant bringing a motor thats lighter and more powerful. If the DJI weighted twice as much and had big fat batteries I doubt we'd be having this much pushback though.I do so love a convoluted conspiracy theory
If stock wasn't flying off the shelves and shipment pre-orders weren't reserved months in advanced whilst other brands have to go on sale to move units, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Fact of the matter is DJI / Amflow are absolutely chomping down marketshare at full RRP. Bike manufacturers want answers as to why incumbents got caught with their pants down and now they can't shift bikes without deep discounts, and the incumbents want to try anything they can to take the shine off the new younger, slimmer, stronger buck that their wives are eyeing up.
I have never been called a wife before
Big difference is, a 1500bhp car doesn't cause any wear on a road more than a 60bhp car
Same wear and tear on the road
Off-road the more power the tendency is it will cause more wear on a trail.
Of course it's not black and white, as power is nothing without control, but generally the higher the power output to more likely there is for it to cause more trail erosion
Unlikely 100NM will be measurably more fun than 85NM
I'd bet no one would tell the difference on a normal ride between 85 and 100
Biggest difference would be the power delivery rather than the power output
15NM is nothing really it's about 2bhp
JP-NZ
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
LOL, around 11 million ebikes are sold per year. It would be lucky if 1% were DJI
No doubt they will make a dent in sales but that will take 2-3 years (not months)
xtraman122
Well-known member
I really don’t get this argument, people aren’t exactly breaking traction from crazy acceleration making rooster tails with their e-bikes (Yes, with things like surrons/talarias, but I’m not considering those, those are squarely in the dirt bike category). By far the biggest thing damaging trails is on the downhills from braking, which power has absolutely no play in because the motor isn’t even running going downhill.
The problem for the incumbent motor suppliers is 2 fold.
1) EMTB buyers are not buying the current stock of bikes that were planned and manufactured before DJI magically appeared late last year.
2) Once EMTB manufacturers shift their designs over to a new motor supplier. Then the motor manufacturers will lose further sales for an extended future period.
If anyone is trying to tell me it's pure coincidence that a German lead think tank, and an EU driven proposed regulation, just happen to land on 750 watts of peak power as a proposed limit, for reasons other than it perfectly matched Bosch's future plan to release a new firmware for their motors. Then I think you are living in denial.
This proposed pure coincidence, perfectly matching Bosch, and hobbling DJI, was a perfectly executed marketing strategy to coincide with the release of the Bosch's new Firmware and Race Motor. Which were both still inferior to the DJI motor system. The Bosch upgrade BTW. Is still not available freely to the public.
They now have all their Influencer Minions, like EMBN, pushing this narrative of, "We must limit Peak Power or there will be consequences. But BTW. The new Bosch motors actually perfectly meets the new limit we propose".
What a load of Crap.
Mountain biking grew from the freedom of being able to explore. The people who started this amazing sport would be ashamed of the corporate influencing of it's development, for the sake of making the corporations more money. Rather than for making the Mountain Bikes more capable.
This move by both Bosch and the EMTB influencers really leaves a sour taste in my mouth. It's really hard to see and read the Corporate Manipulation of this amazing sport for the sake of the Corporations.
What happen to us ???
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JP-NZ
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Got any actual proof of that or just the usual biased POV?
I'd say new bikes from Transition, Trek, Specialized, Norco, Santa Cruz, Cube, Focus etc are selling plenty well enough judging by this forum.
Ummm ....... The fact that I tried to buy an Amflow and the dealer told me he's flooded with Amflow orders and back orders are 3 months. He then tries to convince me to buy a different bike. He says I can get any of his other brands within 4 weeks. This is a boutique seller. He only sells expensive EMTBs.
So in the meantime. As I wanted to ride sooner. I ring a store and order a Merida E160 on the Saturday. And rode away with it on the Sunday.
I ordered my Amflow in February. It is currently on a truck from Melbourne to Sydney with 16 other Amflow's headed to my dealer's store. This dealer is saying he has never sold so many over $10,000 EMTB's in such a short space of time. And the demand is not slowing.
The store is Cyclery Studio. You are welcome to call them and get the story straight from the dealers.
I also rang Camden Cycles, who also sells Amflow, when my local dealer was giving poor communication. He said that the Amflow is their biggest selling EMTB, and confirmed the back order issue. Though recently, the new cheapest Specialized Levo has become his biggest selling EMTB.
Once again, you are free to ring these dealers and confirm.
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JP-NZ
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Cool story...
But you didn't answer the question, I'm not debating demand for Amflow. Can you prove your statement below or not?
