AlumiPro
Well-known member
E13 responded to my question about if the SideKick will help reduce the Bosch rattle.
Anyone use Anti-Pedal Kickback Tech on EMTB?
- Thread starter slickrock
- Start date
AlumiPro
Well-known member
All my Sapim spokes were within spec length for the new SideKick, just new nipples and rim tape were added. The SideKick is all laced up and ready for action! I have it set at 18deg deadband for the first ride.
It had been many weeks since my last ride on my emtb, so I just installed a new chain and cassette (1100miles old) and went for a 2-1/2hr ride Friday(w/out SideKick) to have the Bosch rattle fresh in my mind. I felt having a new chain and cassette for a quiet drivetrain would be best for the Sidekick comparison. I’ll be getting the Sidekick all muddy soon and report back with my findings.
It had been many weeks since my last ride on my emtb, so I just installed a new chain and cassette (1100miles old) and went for a 2-1/2hr ride Friday(w/out SideKick) to have the Bosch rattle fresh in my mind. I felt having a new chain and cassette for a quiet drivetrain would be best for the Sidekick comparison. I’ll be getting the Sidekick all muddy soon and report back with my findings.
Last edited:
AlumiPro
Well-known member
After a 2-1/2 hour ride (750wh battery 97% to 25%), I can say that the e13 Sidekick hub definitely REDUCES the Bosch Gen4 rattle. It does not completely get ride of it, which I didn’t expect it to. But at least it doesn’t sound like I’m riding around with a handful of nuts and bolts in my water bottle! I noticed a significantly quieter ride overall.
Some of the remaining rattle I’m still hearing is due to shaking and vibration through the frame/motor when going fast down steep rock gardens. Which is separate from chain growth movement while the rear suspension cycles(pedal kickback) causing the internal gear backlash rattle. Certain trail sections I’m getting up to speeds of 30-36mph…..there’s going to be some internal motor gear backlash noise thats not necessarily associated with kickback…..at least with the Gen4 motor.
I have an EXT E-Storia coil shock which makes a squishy “catfish out of water” breathing sound as it cycles(if you own an E-Storia you know the sound I’m talking about) I had this shock mounted first to a quiet Gen3 Brose/Levo, which makes the shock sound very noticeable(but not annoying to me). When I replaced the Levo with the Crestline/Gen4 Bosch, I installed the E-Storia and forgot how loud the E-Storia sound was because the Bosch rattle was grabbing my attention. With the SideKick installed reducing the Bosch rattle, I am now hearing the E-Storia sound noticeably more again…..a welcomed sound to my ears over the Bosch rattle!
I noticed the biggest reduction in motor rattle while riding mellower/not crazy steep rocky slight down hill sections, it’s much quieter. Which is when I was the most annoyed by the Bosch rattle before installing the SideKick. I feel when you’re going down a crazy steep fast rocky descend, it’s understandable that there will be more noise being produced. But not ok to hear such rattling over the mellower/not crazy steep rocky trail sections.
I did notice the 18 degree deadband (greatest amount) I setup inside the SideKick for the first ride. It obviously creates more play in the drive system, but as with most things you get used to it quickly. On my typical rides I encounter many up hill rock ledges that I have to quickly ratchet the cranks to get up and over. I had no issues with the 18 degree deadband in this situation but again you can feel the large deadband. I have now set the SideKick deadband at 12deg (least amount) for my next ride. (Very easy to do, could be done on the trail.)
As far as pedal kickback/rear suspension performance with the SideKick, I couldn’t tell you……I was too focused on listening for rattling. I’ll be hitting the trails again soon though.
I hope I didn’t ramble too much, and hopefully some riders find this helpful.
Some of the remaining rattle I’m still hearing is due to shaking and vibration through the frame/motor when going fast down steep rock gardens. Which is separate from chain growth movement while the rear suspension cycles(pedal kickback) causing the internal gear backlash rattle. Certain trail sections I’m getting up to speeds of 30-36mph…..there’s going to be some internal motor gear backlash noise thats not necessarily associated with kickback…..at least with the Gen4 motor.
I have an EXT E-Storia coil shock which makes a squishy “catfish out of water” breathing sound as it cycles(if you own an E-Storia you know the sound I’m talking about) I had this shock mounted first to a quiet Gen3 Brose/Levo, which makes the shock sound very noticeable(but not annoying to me). When I replaced the Levo with the Crestline/Gen4 Bosch, I installed the E-Storia and forgot how loud the E-Storia sound was because the Bosch rattle was grabbing my attention. With the SideKick installed reducing the Bosch rattle, I am now hearing the E-Storia sound noticeably more again…..a welcomed sound to my ears over the Bosch rattle!
I noticed the biggest reduction in motor rattle while riding mellower/not crazy steep rocky slight down hill sections, it’s much quieter. Which is when I was the most annoyed by the Bosch rattle before installing the SideKick. I feel when you’re going down a crazy steep fast rocky descend, it’s understandable that there will be more noise being produced. But not ok to hear such rattling over the mellower/not crazy steep rocky trail sections.
I did notice the 18 degree deadband (greatest amount) I setup inside the SideKick for the first ride. It obviously creates more play in the drive system, but as with most things you get used to it quickly. On my typical rides I encounter many up hill rock ledges that I have to quickly ratchet the cranks to get up and over. I had no issues with the 18 degree deadband in this situation but again you can feel the large deadband. I have now set the SideKick deadband at 12deg (least amount) for my next ride. (Very easy to do, could be done on the trail.)
As far as pedal kickback/rear suspension performance with the SideKick, I couldn’t tell you……I was too focused on listening for rattling. I’ll be hitting the trails again soon though.
I hope I didn’t ramble too much, and hopefully some riders find this helpful.
Last edited:
slickrock
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #36
Thanks for the feedback.
Based on the comments from the E13 folks regarding sidekick performance with EMTB, they stated the the motor's torque sensor cause the motor to take up the slack quickly so the deadband is effectively eliminated under normal use. Based on your comments this does not seem to be the case. Perhaps the effect is reduced or ameliorated instead of being eliminated. It would be interesting if you slap that rear wheel onto an analog MTB at max deadband and report on the difference between that and the Crestline.
When you do return to test, do report kickback/suspension performance on the different deadband settings. How does the hub sound, BTW?
AlumiPro
Well-known member
The SideKick pawls have a very quiet engagement.
I would agree that the deadband is taken up quickly due to the motor torque but some of the time I can definitely feel and hear the end of the deadband when the pawls are forced to reengage. But there are a lot of variables to the deadbands engagement sound and feel. I’m doing a lot of climbing and ratcheting my 145mm cranks under load to overcome obstacles. Which would seem to make the deadband more noticeable, but not a deal breaker.
I would definitely not want this SideKick hub on a MTB with my type of technical riding, and the fact that I have to pedal up a long distance to get to the descending sections. I’m sure this deadband on a down hill rig would be just fine though, and obviously very useful for kickback.
My mtb is a high pivot Gates carbon belt drive gearbox bike with zero belt growth and zero kickback, set up with a high engagement i9 Hydra hub. This SideKick hub would be absolutely pointless on it. My mtb and emtb both have Crank Brothers Synthesis carbon rear 27.5 wheels, boost width. So if I really wanted to I could do some experimenting. Ideally I’d have my i9 hud/rim setup with a t-type cassette as well, so I can swap it out with the Sidekick hub rim setup on every other ride with the Crestline. That would give me a really good sense of what the SideKick is achieving on the Crestline. I already have all the parts to do so.
Last edited:
slickrock
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #38
...
My mtb is a high pivot Gates carbon belt drive gearbox bike with zero belt growth and zero kickback, set up with a high engagement i9 Hydra hub. This SideKick hub would be absolutely pointless on it. My mtb and emtb both have Crank Brothers Synthesis carbon rear 27.5 wheels, boost width. So if I really wanted to I could do some experimenting. Ideally I’d have my i9 hud/rim setup with a t-type cassette as well, so I can swap it out with the Sidekick hub rim setup on every other ride with the Crestline. That would give me a really good sense of what the SideKick is achieving on the Crestline. I already have all the parts to do so.
OK, now you got me really curious about your gearbox MTB. Not too many bikes have zero belt growth out there (or zero chain growth for that matter) - it would require a concentric pivot. Might it be a Cavaliere Anakin or similar with a Effigear gearbox?
Last edited:
AlumiPro
Well-known member
Frame/gearbox only dream build; 2024/2025 176mm/190mm travel Cavalerie Anakin V2. It checked every box on my list, and then some! No chainring or derailleur to get smacked, no chain to oil, low maintenance, no pedal kickback, no goofy tensioner, quiet drivetrain, SRAM trigger shifter, able to shift to any gear without pedaling, raw aluminum frame, long travel, very well balanced weight and geo, ……I think that’s about everything that really set it apart from the rest for me. It’s an absolute blast to ride and a real head turner. I’m really enjoying it. The Crestline had some dust build up on it after I completed the Anakin V2 build.
I’m REALLY looking forward to the day I get a long travel belt drive gearbox(NO wrist twist shifter) emtb!…..Basically an Anakin V2 with a built in motor and battery would be insanely awesome!
Cavalerie is in test phases with there new Effigear emtb.(attached pic) But good grief the gearbox/motor is huge!(because they’re two separate units joined together) Unfortunately the output shaft is at the cranks, unlike the Anakin. It’s also a chain drive with a tensioner……not what I’m looking for in my next emtb unfortunately.
I’m REALLY looking forward to the day I get a long travel belt drive gearbox(NO wrist twist shifter) emtb!…..Basically an Anakin V2 with a built in motor and battery would be insanely awesome!
Cavalerie is in test phases with there new Effigear emtb.(attached pic) But good grief the gearbox/motor is huge!(because they’re two separate units joined together) Unfortunately the output shaft is at the cranks, unlike the Anakin. It’s also a chain drive with a tensioner……not what I’m looking for in my next emtb unfortunately.
slickrock
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #40
Dude, we need to talk. I've been seriously jonesing for the Anakin v2.2 for EXACTLY every thing you mentioned and been lamenting for an EMTB version just the same. That French bike you have is a very rare bird out here, and I would very much like to throw a leg over one or at least discuss configuration choices. I'm in California as well - expect a PM.
If firmly believe that a concentric axle path rear suspension is only true way to fully eliminate suspension activated kickback, and add a gearbox in the mix to top off all other advantages your mentioned. I feel the original Effigear gearbox design (with elevated drivetrain separated from the pedal-train) is a perfect high-pivot solution and really hoped that design would have made its way into Effigear's planned MGU, but oh well. My dream machine would be a DGI CVT MGU with built-in elevated drivetrain mated to a concentric elevated swingarm rear suspension, long travel (enduro, downduro) bike.
View attachment 155955
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.
Last edited:
John_likes_bikes
Well-known member
Rode an ochain on my ep801 this weekend for the first time, YT Decoy and I have to say it's everything as advertised. All of the trail I could feel in my pedals previously was gone, smoothed out the trail amazingly. Unexpected benefit was quieting down the whole bike. The ep801 isn't the smoothest putting on the power from stop so I couldn't feel the ochina re-engaging at all. I could see this being an odd sensation on a mtb but not with a motor picking up the slack.
slickrock
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #42
Looks like your getting your cake and eating it too, as other posts on this thread have supported. Until more high-pivot EMTBs or MGUs take hold, Ochain and other pedal kickback tech look fruitful for EMTB.
Which Ochain version did you get? If it is the external dial version, were you forced to get the ochain crank-arms as well? Last I check about a month ago, for the Bosch Gen4 external dial version, there was no option to just purchase the ochain by itself; only a combo purchase with either a 165mm or 155mm crank-arms. Not ideal to say the least.
John_likes_bikes
Well-known member
It certainly seems like all upside for emtbs. This is the version I purchased:
OCHAIN | E Shimano EP8
Ochain | E NERO for EP8 motor Introducing the Ochain | E, a revolutionary active spider that transforms your riding experience and elevates your bike's performance. Ochain enables the chainring to rotate backward, effectively disconnecting the transmission from the suspension. The result? A...
www.ochain.bike
I'm with you, changing cranks for me was a no go and for this version you do not need to use theirs. They do claim to not work with all cranks on the market, for my Forx cranks and the OE Shimano FC-EM900 fitment was not an issue. YMMV
I figured I was going to set it and forget it at 9 degrees anyway. Maybe someday I'll try 12 or 6 degree float, removing and installing is straightforward and the trade off for external adjusting wasn't worth it.
Mars2
Active member
Anyone using Ochain on a Strive-On
Bontee
Active member
I too have no idea what kick-back is Stihldog,and I too have had the odd shin strike,I feel on balance I will continue to wear the leg armour,my guess is that it will be cheaper than whatever the thing is that stops kick backIt was explained to me, by someone on this forum, that the POE is determined by the gears in the motor, not the shiny new hub. I don’t know what the numbers are but the Bosch CX motor is noticeable. The TQ motor is not.
I never experienced kick-back …but I have had a shin strike.
Mars2
Active member
I too have no idea what kick-back is Stihldog,and I too have had the odd shin strike,I feel on balance I will continue to wear the leg armour,my guess is that it will be cheaper than whatever the thing is that stops kick back
In simplest terms PK is just the opposite reaction of the anti-squat that all modern bikes are built with. When you pedal, the chain force extends the rear suspension to offset the rearward weight transfer that would naturally occur so that the bikes pedal well and don't sag down in the back. The opposite of this force is that when your shock compresses, the chain pulls your cranks backwards and you feel this as harshness in the pedals. You can see this by removing your shock and when you compress your rear suspension your cranks will rotate backwards.
The confusion starts when people start realizing that the rear hub would need to be engaged at that moment to actually yank on the chain. So, if your pedaling uphill, sure. But coasting downhill is debatable whether one feels true PK.
But people definitely feel something, so what is it?
Well, these chains whip around a lot and the derailleur has a clutch as well, both applying forces through the pedals. To top it off e-bikes have a whole other thing going on with a freewheel in the motor mechanism that might negate some of these sensations, or not. Some motors might absorb any PK. Or not. Who effing knows!
When considering hub solutions (i.e. E13 Sidekick) vs. crank solutions (i.e. O'Chain), well only one seems to be able to positively deal with any inputs as a result of the chain. It's possible that there are multiple causes for what the rider feels through the pedals, and it changes based on the conditions at that moment.
Also, theoretically you should be able to correct this PK situation by running a High Pivot bike, such as the Norco VLT or the E-Druid. But maybe not the chain whip? But then maybe the idler wheel prevents the rider from feeling any chain whip?
Frankly it's all so confusing I don't even know where to begin and don't know how to proceed without just testing everything back-to-back. I have a riding buddy that added the Sidekick hub to the back of his Bosch Gen4 Crestline and he seems to think he can't even feel any difference at all. I asked to borrow his rear wheel to test for myself, but his is a 29er and I would need a 27.5".
Back to square one!
Last edited:
mrtrinh
Active member
Anyone try an Ochain on a bosch gen 5 cx? Which offset do you choose? 52mm or 55mm?
John_likes_bikes
Well-known member
That's a question of chainline, which is bike dependant.
mrtrinh
Active member
Facepalm. Not sure how I overlooked that. Thanks.
To be fair, no one feels PK on a HP, that's the entire point.
Adding another data point: I rode a gearbox bike with a belt recently and that was truly the smoothest feeling rear suspension I've ever felt, which would either indicate that 1) it's all the chain slapping about actually, or 2) unsprung weight at the rear of the bike is a large issue all on it's own.
slickrock
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #54
Indeed. Pedal kickback (not the specific concept but rather the rider-sensing phenomena) really is a manifold problem. But the real culprit I feel is the chain and it's path through the derailleur. Chains are not just heavy, but are also long to accommodate the dinner-plate-size cassettes of 1x1's and their multiple pulleys that have grown over the years. To make matters worse, when going downhill, the rider is on the smaller/smallest cogs and so there's even more slack chain slack the derailleur's clutch is contenting with to keep tension. And because the clutch is a spring, it's tension is weakest at this point, so it's doing a lousy job at it when you need it the most. So the chain just flails around in the chunk, yanking the pedals, and huge cassettes and longer travel rear suspensions have just accentuated the whole affair. Moving to a belt/gearbox bike simply kills off this entire issue, and for years now I've been using IGH/Belt drive on my analog bike for this very reason and is why I'm converting my Sonni to belt drive. And the unsprung weight lightening advantage for a midrive gearbox is icing on the cake.
Now, while none of this addresses pedal kickback as I expressed in the OP, tensioned chain growth through suspension travel is a real problem that I feel this tech can allay. If you have long travel EMTB without an idler gear, then the improvement will be more noticeable. I plan to put an Ochain on my Sonni, but will likely toss it as soon as I outfit the bike with belt drive, as the effects of ridding myself of the chain will likely overwhelm any solution that adds float to address kickback effects.
Edit: Curious to know what gearbox bike your rode.
Last edited:
The belted bike I rode was a Zerode. Like all test rides the entire set up was whack for me. But my gosh it was otherworldly smooth from the rear end.
Not sure I could adjust to the gearbox on that thing though.
I have a question: wouldn't a belt weigh pretty much the same as a chain? Just the nature of the belt, having that springyness and not articulating maybe prevents it from slapping about?
Not sure I could adjust to the gearbox on that thing though.
I have a question: wouldn't a belt weigh pretty much the same as a chain? Just the nature of the belt, having that springyness and not articulating maybe prevents it from slapping about?
slickrock
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #56
I would love to try a high-pivot G1 with electronic shifting and would like to see this design trickle down to an enduro bike.
Belts are markedly lighter than chains on a per-length basis, but even a greater difference is that belts are shorter than derailleur chains as well because they only need to route over a single cog, usually smaller sprocket and at most a single tensioner (or none at all with some bikes). I really like the tensioner on the G1 (Zeroede’s own design), because it has a minimal lightweight design, unlike some other heavy tensioners out there, including Pinion's own awkward tensioner, that are used on a host of other gearbox MTBs.
The other thing about belts is that they are under much more tension than chains, to keep the teeth from jumping the cog. Gates provides tension measurement tools to make sure that belt is properly tight - there's even a free app the listens for the right note when you twang the belt. What all of this amounts to is a much tighter setup to further reduce transmission slap compared to chains and contribute to that otherworldly feel you sensed.
What happened with your additional testing with less deadband and also your long term results with the Sidekick?
I'm quite interested in utilizing some Sidekick hubs with a new wheel build that would be on a Gen5 Bosch motor, with no high pivot.
Thanks!
AlumiPro
Well-known member
Yes it’s definitely reduced feedback. I currently have the deadband set in the middle setting……I believe 16deg.
But I haven’t been riding my emtb w/ SideKick as much lately, as my Anakin V2 is such a blast to ride and so quiet!
John_likes_bikes
Well-known member
Anyone mount an ochain on a DJI equiped bike?
