Are expensive bike lights a rip off?

[Gary]

Unless also riding to and from the trails most folk rarely ever ride for more than 2 hours* at night.
Especially on an Ebike.

2000 lumens isn't dim

*actual moving time.

 

[VWsurfbum]

I know we all would like a zillion lumens and would love to show how much brighter it is at night with our lights than during a cloudy day where we wouldn't even consider using a light, but seriously guys these lights you are promoting are really heavy weights, literally from all the battery power on board.

Can I ask the question ? Your eyesight will and does get acclimatised to the dimmer 2000 lumen lights, do we really need all the additional weight and cost to actually enjoy riding at night, particularly as it would seem most of you are having to run at lower settings to even get two hours of riding, carrying all the extra weight that will give you two minutes of max power.

View attachment 76793

I get where you're coming from and the approx 600g of weight is not enough to worry about or to slow me down on my night jaunts. I would say on average my night rides are roughly 3 hours + with riding too and from the woods, the dimmer the lights yes your eyes do adapt, but you also have to ride slower to see all the obstacles. watch my video above to see the difference it makes riding around the local woods.

 

[superchiwawa]

I know we all would like a zillion lumens and would love to show how much brighter it is at night with our lights than during a cloudy day where we wouldn't even consider using a light, but seriously guys these lights you are promoting are really heavy weights, literally from all the battery power on board.

Can I ask the question ? Your eyesight will and does get acclimatised to the dimmer 2000 lumen lights, do we really need all the additional weight and cost to actually enjoy riding at night, particularly as it would seem most of you are having to run at lower settings to even get two hours of riding, carrying all the extra weight that will give you two minutes of max power.

View attachment 76793

Personally I think it's more about beam pattern than raw lumens, and this has to match varying speeds.

You can shine a laser for 2 km but you won't see didly squat in the rest of the range your eye sight can reach outside that beam. Great for the spookies effect in your peripheral vision though.

At low speeds I think you need close up to your handlebar (with a minimum of tire shadow) over a wide angle. At high speed plenty of throw and a wide the angle up ahead helps you can see in the curves.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I think beam pattern, lumens and shape are all relevant. Just strap this to your top tube and off you go.

 

[Waynemarlow]

We’ve found the cheapo Chinese lights perfectly adequate, but it’s all about how you use them. We tend to all have helmet lights, what you look at is lit with a wide beam light, with a larger single more focused light on the bars. Seems to be fine for the single track we do. The helmet light is key though.

Anyone remember the first halogens and the size of the battery pack ?

 

[Gary]

If you're going to use cheap lights, for obvious reasons a bar mounted flood along with more of a spot helmet mounted would be the way to go rather than the other way around.
But even then cheap lights do not all offer the same quality of light or even colour of light.
flogging a dead horse about how great your cheap lights are to a bunch of folk who already have far better lights is a bit futile don't you think?

 

[Waynemarlow]

If you're going to use cheap lights, for obvious reasons a bar mounted flood along with more of a spot helmet mounted would be the way to go rather than the other way around.
But even then cheap lights do not all offer the same quality of light or even colour of light.
flogging a dead horse about how great your cheap lights are to a bunch of folk who already have far better lights is a bit futile don't you think?

I beg to differ Gary, at short distances you need a wide beam to flood the area with light, you need peripheral as well as directional to see obstacles and dangers at shorter distances that more often than not are not in line with your bars. The cheaper Chinese lights use exactly the same Cree T6 LED’s as their more expensive counterparts, which in the smaller lense format of say the X2 do not have the precision of the more expensive lights and thus are more suited to flood duties.

For the bars you want the larger diameter lense units which gives a more directional and focussed beam and thus distance with lower powered units, one normally points the front bars and the bike will follow and thus you want your track ahead lit at a distance.

One thing I have no pretensions about is that there are good quality specialist lights available at a cost, but not everyone has unlimited funds. I would far sooner see people out there night riding with cheapo Chinese lights correctly applied than to see them not ride. Equally people with deep pockets are welcome to fund the lifestyles of the shareholders of the more expensive types.

 

[Gary]

I beg to differ Gary

Thought you might.
I can't even be bothered explaining why you're wrong. You are though.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Thought you might.
I can't even be bothered explaining why you're wrong. You are though.

Lets ignore stupid amounts of lumen lights that last for a few minutes before throttling back ( heat ) and lets talk about the 2K to 4K lumen lights which can last for a minimum of 2 hours at that rate, which I'm probably meaning both cheapo Chinese and some of the more expensive lights out there.

I vote for a wide angle beam on your helmet, its short range and you want spread to maximise the light. A single focused light at short distance will be nothing but shadows, plus the intensity will force your Iris in your eyes to close, creating problems when you wish to look further ahead where the light will be less intense. Couple that with a more focused single beam on your bars for longer distances where the spread by the time it gets to your max needed distance, has spread to what would seem a wide angle. Colour needs to be as yellow as you can be comfortable with as this lessons the shadowing and gives the eyes and brain a way of differentiating what is depth.

Lets hear from Gary his take on the matter.

 

[Gary]

My take is that you are absolutely clueless Wayne.
All lights have modes so if you're climbing at 5kmh with 2000lm blasting out from your head and bars instead of dimming them down I can only assume you're probably night blind or scared of the dark .
flood is better on the bars as your bars don't point in the direction of the trail ahead.
Unlike your head.
Unless you're boss eyed when a flood might be handy on your head too.

Flood on the bars and spot on the lid has been the fairly widely recognised ideal combination for off road riding and has been for the last few decades. Until you came along Wayne.

 

[Gary]

It's kinda hilarious that you think it's an insult to call folk a roadie when you run your mtb lights in a configuration that would only make sense for road riding.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Flood on the bars and spot on the lid has been the fairly widely recognised ideal combination for off road riding and has been for the last few decades. Until you came along Wayne.

You need to substantiate that Gary, I know you only seem to ride road bikes and I can understand that perhaps roadies are different to mtb riders in their requirements, but from where I'm sitting you are talking a load of bollocks and wishing to denigrate personally rather than have actual factual proof of your statements . Certainly we gave up with spots on our helmets due to the shadowing problems an intense very directional light gave.

Perhaps we are just ahead of the game and too many people like yourself simply read the internet and not actually trial and experiment to find a good combination for night riding.

If you could link me to recent actual proper studies on whats best for mtb lighting at night that states flood on the bars and spot on the lid then I and many others reading this thread might actually be able to decipher whats best. I'm always willing to relearn how to use lights.

So lets have a bit of actual proof rather than Gary's internet based " hearsay ".

 

[Doomanic]

That goes both ways Wayne...

Citation required.

 

[Gary]

Come night ride with me Wayne.
We'll climb about a mile or two of fireroads and bridleway where your set up will work well then drop into tight technical enduro/DH for the descent.
Good luck seeing me again after the first corner

 

[Gary]

Shall I bring my roadbike to give you a chance?

 

[Growmac]

Gents, quit with the insults, please.

 

[Waynemarlow]

That goes both ways Wayne...

Citation required.

You see thats actually quite hard to do as there's almost no scientific testing over varied testers and terrain on the internet, other than light tests of the latest and greatest all purporting to be the best from 1 - 10 with 3/4's of them almost totally impractical in the real world due to size and weight and low run times. Seems the advertising and branding world at one of its best examples.

So that leaves Gary's bravado as just that, internet bravado, my dick is bigger than yours sort of syndrome. I could beat you on my roadbike type, well maybe he could but then he would have to get off the internet and actually ride a bike .

Whatever, we as a group of riding buddies have evolved over probably 15 years of night riding at least once a week, a setup thats works for us on our terrain. I just wish more people would do a bit of experimenting and trialing of equipment with open minds and forget the branding hype, they maybe pleasantly surprised at just how good budget equipment can be. Enough said.

 

[Jimbo Vills]

I use three cheapo ebay lights, mainly cos my night rides have been more XC type rides where I just want to get some fresh air and out the house from my doorstep.

want to do more ‘proper’ night riding so will invest in some better lights.

current setup tho is two lights on the bars for general flood lighting and one helmet for immediate spot lights so I can see where I’m directly going.

no science, no research, no citation, just seems common sense and best approach for me

 

[Doomanic]

So lets have a bit of actual proof rather than Gary's internet based " hearsay ".

You see thats actually quite hard to do as there's almost no scientific testing over varied testers and terrain on the internet

Stop poking the bear mate.

 

[Doomanic]

My lights are £13 each from eBay, including batteries. They are fine for any riding I do, including steep tech, but more is always better. I'd live a Magicshine 6500 having seen @Gibspark's light last week but I don't have the spare dosh to blow on something that'll get used a few rides per year.

 

[Zimmerframe]

but I don't have the spare dosh to blow on something that'll get used a few rides per year

Just to confirm, as this thread has gone off topic a few times, we are still talking bikes aren't we ?

 

[Doomanic]

Lights Zim, we're talking about lights.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Lights Zim, we're talking about lights.

I'm sorry. It gets confusing. We have people saying Lights aren't light enough and then some say the heavier ones are often lighter .....

 

[2WheelsNot4]

Has anyone experience of the magicshine monteer 3500 ?. Its about £100 cheaper than the 6500, and for the riding I do is probably more than enough.

I have to say though, sure lights have gotten considerably brighter, but how ever did we get on before multi thousand lumen lights became the norm Were we getting the same fights over the benefits of 20w cateye halogen

 

[Doomanic]

Were we getting the same fights over the benefits of 20w cateye halogen

No. We were enjoying riding our bikes with shit lights rather than getting into pissing contests with people we’ll probably never meet.

 

[Zimmerframe]

No. We were enjoying riding our bikes with shit lights rather than getting into pissing contests with people we’ll probably never meet.

How come the pissing contest evolved around showing your superiority by pissing higher or further than someone else ?

I'm sure most wives/girlfriends would have wished it had been more target shooting so all these blokes had got some accuracy practice in instead.

 

[apac]

I haven't read(yet) the above squabble, but the 'bike' package I had from Exposure was the Diablo head torch and the MaxX D bar mounted torch.

the Diablo helmet torch has 3 LED's and each one has a diffuser lens in front of it helping to emit a spread/wide light.
the MaXx D has 4 LED's and only one has a diffuser lens in front of it to give a more directional long throw of light.

So according to Exposure.... wider spread on helmet, directional on bars


to illustrate, here's the MaXx D, take note of the bottom lens....

Diablo helmet torch…

 

[Slapbassmunky]

I haven't read(yet) the above squabble, but the 'bike' package I had from Exposure was the Diablo head torch and the MaxX D bar mounted torch.

the Diablo helmet torch has 3 LED's and each one has a diffuser lens in front of it helping to emit a spread/wide light.
the MaXx D has 4 LED's and only one has a diffuser lens in front of it to give a more directional long throw of light.

So according to Exposure.... wider spread on helmet, directional on bars


to illustrate, here's the MaXx D, take note of the bottom lens....

View attachment 76948

Diablo helmet torch…

View attachment 76950

It's not quite that simple, unfortunately. The triple optic (khatod or carclo by the looks of it) is patterned like that partly to reduce beam artifacts from the LED's you can swap them out for different beam patterns if you want. The LEDs dies are physically bigger in said triple, this requires a bigger individual optic to focus the light Into something useable. I don't know exposure stuff, but it's probably got the xm-l sized emitters in there.

The quad you have as a helmet light is using a custom designed optic, as you rightly said the lower one will give you a long, narrow beam to illuminate down the trail, the others are there for spread. The individual optics are smaller because the LED dies are physically smaller, probably xp-g sized. These naturally throw more light down the trail and are easier to focus.

Most light manufacturers just use an off the shelf optic that fits the bill. Manufacturers have been known to tighten the beam up and throw it further down the trail because it's what people perceive to be 'bright'. Lots of lovely side spill costs lumens, lots of lumens, but a nice wide beam on the bars is the way I do it, a tight beam just looks like you're waving a light sabre through the trees

Now, your head is a perfectly stable platform. It stays dead level and true, for your eyes and that. So I run a spot beam on my helmet. It goes where I look, and I don't want the weight of a 3000 lumen light strapped to my head.

 

[Gary]

@carlbiker to the bat phone!

 

[Waynemarlow]

It's not quite that simple, unfortunately. The triple optic (khatod or carclo by the looks of it) is patterned like that partly to reduce beam artifacts from the LED's you can swap them out for different beam patterns if you want. The LEDs dies are physically bigger in said triple, this requires a bigger individual optic to focus the light Into something useable. I don't know exposure stuff, but it's probably got the xm-l sized emitters in there.

The quad you have as a helmet light is using a custom designed optic, as you rightly said the lower one will give you a long, narrow beam to illuminate down the trail, the others are there for spread. The individual optics are smaller because the LED dies are physically smaller, probably xp-g sized. These naturally throw more light down the trail and are easier to focus.

Most light manufacturers just use an off the shelf optic that fits the bill. Manufacturers have been known to tighten the beam up and throw it further down the trail because it's what people perceive to be 'bright'. Lots of lovely side spill costs lumens, lots of lumens, but a nice wide beam on the bars is the way I do it, a tight beam just looks like you're waving a light sabre through the trees

Now, your head is a perfectly stable platform. It stays dead level and true, for your eyes and that. So I run a spot beam on my helmet. It goes where I look, and I don't want the weight of a 3000 lumen light strapped to my head.

Interesting and always open to learn from more erudite people. Can I have a clarification please. You quote the four LED unit as the helmet unit when in fact it’s the three LED unit, can I ask you to comment please.