Why is PX £1100 more than PR Pro?

[Wojtek]

Good stuff.
Here is what I have so far for PX (vs PR Pro):

• Components are all the same except battery
• warranty is same
• charger is same 12A
• £1100 more expensive
• 2Kg lighter - which is meaningful.
• 20 extra Nm at full power - irrelevant to me at 65Kg as I'll never need it.
• Prettier
• 10-12% less range from smaller battery
• harder to charge integrated battery at hotel on trips
• Available now - this is big one as PR's are perhaps 3 months away.

Still mulling this over.......

PR is coming on 20th July to Switzerland.

 

[sethimus]

energy density is greater so that it’s probably actually similar range

you slept through physics education, right?

 

[Tgianco]

Good stuff.
Here is what I have so far for PX (vs PR Pro):

• Components are all the same except battery
• warranty is same
• charger is same 12A
• £1100 more expensive
• 2Kg lighter - which is meaningful.
• 20 extra Nm at full power - irrelevant to me at 65Kg as I'll never need it.
• Prettier
• 10-12% less range from smaller battery
• harder to charge integrated battery at hotel on trips
• Available now - this is big one as PR's are perhaps 3 months away.

Still mulling this over.......

Missing a full season of riding waiting for the PR?
PRICELESS (tomorrow is promised to none of us)

 

[Tgianco]

PR is coming on 20th July to Switzerland.

Would love the PR (have the PL Carbon) but betting it won't be here in the Usa til late fall. Right now, they're saying late September or so, but you know there will be delays.
Granted, I live in California, so there is no "riding season" here (year-round rippin'... er, crashing, in my case).

 

[pher16]

you slept through physics education, right?

While the ranges will not realistically be the same, there are definite advantages to the heat management and efficiency of the new battery, add in the decreased weight that closes the gap in a meaningful way.

 

[sethimus]

then usual overweight over 50 rider of this forum is about 90-100kg. so system weight with the px is about 112-122kg. that increases to 114-124kg with the other bike, not even 2%. but you reduce the amount of available energy by over 12%.

NOT FUCKING POSSIBLE

 

[billium]

The more efficient battery argument has a grain of truth but not much more.

First, battery capacity is measured for the best case with slow discharge. This means that a 720 Wh battery will typically have more capacity than a 700 because that was what was measured!

Now I can see that as the 'new' 700Wh battery generates less heat at very high loads it can be more 'efficient' in boost as there is less heat wasted.
So if you run a PX and a PR at continuous 130Nm, the 12% gap may shrink substantially but that just won't happen in the real world unless you are towing another bike up a mountain and don't care if your ride ends in about 30 minutes!

So math says that 700 is 12% less than 800 but I am willing to WAG the difference down to 10% for occasional boost mode but don't think they are comparable in normal duty.

 

[tj01]

You can debate the relative merits of the battery or frame but the price difference implies one or both is more expensive to supply or there's a greater markup.

 

[Wojtek]

You can debate the relative merits of the battery or frame but the price difference implies one or both is more expensive to supply or there's a greater markup.

Greater markup will open up the possibility to discount it in the future once all the other m2s ebikes will become availsble on the market.

 

[Ndanger]

Now I can see that as the 'new' 700Wh battery generates less heat at very high loads it can be more 'efficient' in boost as there is less heat wasted.

Good observation, and yes the "less heat wasted" is also related to the improvements with lowering the Internal Resistance of the battery. With fewer cells (fewer connections) between each cell that create resistance along with less wiring etc... the lower resistance means that less (battery energy) is converted to heat. Another plus is there is less voltage sag. With battery chemistry aside, something that will be interesting to factor in to the efficiency, just the IR improvements, is definitely a plus in my book.

ps: The battery chargers that I use for small Lithium batteries checks Internal Resistance. It is the primary metric and means I use to determine the health of the battery as it ages. It helps to anticipate battery problems before they become apparent .

 

[billium]

Good observation, and yes the "less heat wasted" is also related to the improvements with lowering the Internal Resistance of the battery. With fewer cells (fewer connections) between each cell that create resistance along with less wiring etc... the lower resistance means that less (battery energy) is converted to heat. Another plus is there is less voltage sag. With battery chemistry aside, something that will be interesting to factor in to the efficiency, just the IR improvements, is definitely a plus in my book.

ps: The battery chargers that I use for small Lithium batteries checks Internal Resistance. It is the primary metric and means I use to determine the health of the battery as it ages. It helps to anticipate battery problems before they become apparent .

Agreed but I think some are missing that the power lost from the internal resistance is proportional to the square of the current so low current losses( i.e. trail mode) are much lower than at boost high current.

 

[Beezerk]

Missing a full season of riding waiting for the PR?
PRICELESS (tomorrow is promised to none of us)

This is the exact reason why I cancelled my PR order and chose the PX instead.
I'm not getting any younger and the thought of not receiving the PR until autumn/winter was too much of a wait.
All the other positive factors of the PX, less weight, better looking bike etc didn't really have any sway on my decision at all.

 

[Ndanger]

Agreed but I think some are missing that the power lost from the internal resistance is proportional to the square of the current so low current losses( i.e. trail mode) are much lower than at boost high current.

Good point, I think it is possibly under appreciated that if you have two batteries with the exact same Watt-hour (Wh) rating, the battery with the lower resistance will take you further .

 

[Wojtek]

Good point, I think it is possibly under appreciated that if you have two batteries with the exact same Watt-hour (Wh) rating, the battery with the lower resistance will take you further .

Comparing PR with PX battery, it would be marginal difference.
Im leaning towards PX.
Wonder what will be max power/torque when in range extender RS 600wh mode - is this info available?

 

[TheKaiser]

Comparing PR with PX battery, it would be marginal difference.
Im leaning towards PX.
Wonder what will be max power/torque when in range extender RS 600wh mode - is this info available?

I believe that they said that the bike, when fitted with range extender, will have the ability to draw power from either battery, with the option to manually switch which one you are using in the app, although the default is to drain the range extender first, which would allow one to drop the range extender off at your car, for example, finishing your ride without the extra weight.

Since the range extender is the same RS600 battery pack that can be used as a removable internal battery on the PR bike, I would assume that the power will have the same battery induced limitations as the PR bike (1300w) when on the range extender. The only way it would give you the full 1500w would be if they could somehow share the load with the FP700 battery, but as far as I know the hardware does not allow for simultaneous load sharing between the 2 batteries, as that would require a heavier, more complicated, and expensive battery balancing system.

 

[billium]

I have ignored the current range extender as impractical because it is way too big, heavy and hard to install . If they ever do come up with a water bottle mount 300Wh extender you can choose to add for a long ride then that would be worthy of consideration.

 

[Wojtek]

I have ignored the current range extender as impractical because it is way too big, heavy and hard to install . If they ever do come up with a water bottle mount 300Wh extender you can choose to add for a long ride then that would be worthy of consideration.

any details? is there any video showing the process?

 

[Rando_12345]

Nothing to add, but agree with @Zimmerframe , you are paying for the looks and weight, which does make the higher price a bit harder to swallow.

I think what I really would have wanted was a PX frame only or a "base PR" type spec on the PX for 5k (M2, rubbish suspension and brakes). I can't justify the PX price for a second ebike, but the PR weight kinda makes it too similar to my current bosch bike.