I have been doing the same route in the marin headlands for years, basically fireroad climb with a bit of singletrack. The other day i saw 2 dudes on mountain bikes pop back onto the road from the sca hiking trail and so the next day i did it up hill on the emtb and it was glorious. Well a few narrow switch backs/ stairs i had to walk. Almost worth the potential $250 fine
what are your feelings on riding trails that are in USFS areas?
- Thread starter Cavi
- Start date
It's actually really simple the USFS has a law that says no motorized vehicles and the law was written when the idea of motorized vehicles meant motorcycle and eMTB have a motor. They haven't updated the rule because they're slow fucks and there isn't a major incentive for them to take it on. That's bureaucracy for ya.
The fucked up thing is that federal BLM has ruled that class 1 eMTB are no longer considered motorized vehicles, but then they leave it up to local land managers to update their rules. So tons of BLM land still prohibits emtb use on hiking/biking trails for no good reason.
Yeah I think Oakridge would be right up your alley. Next time you come to Bend in the summer plan to do a day trip to Oakridge and book a shuttle or two. You'll thank me. You'll want to avoid Eula ridge. It's steep technical chutes that freak most intermediate riders out. Best two shuttles to do in a day for you would be Alpine and Lawler. Kinda big day on an analog bike, but I think the local shop rents hecklers. Just gorgeous old growth forest riding. Can be as fast or tame as you want to make it. Alpine can take anywhere from 1.5 hours as a rip to 4 hours as a meander.
mike_kelly
E*POWAH Elite
I think there is a big problem with MTB riders that think they are entitled to ride fast, everywhere. I ride on a multiuser trail that is clearly marked everywhere with the old triangle MTB riders yield to everyone signs. It was created when we were trying to get access to trails 40 years ago. Young riders don't realize how hard it was to gain access. When yielding to hikers on our trail I have many if not most people say you are the first MTB to yield to us ever. I have seen riders zoom past hikers on the trail at speed scaring the heck out of them.
I think with this stigma eMTB is seen as the worst of MTB, the fast riders that don't yield. No American bureaucrat wants to exercise a responsibility. They want blanket laws that they don't have to be responsible for. If the US had enforced a class 1 only rule like Europe there would be less problem. But we won't do sensible things here, we have to have all classes and therefore all access cut off to cover the bases.
I don't think sneaking into a non-motorized Forest Service trail is going to gain any increased access.
I think with this stigma eMTB is seen as the worst of MTB, the fast riders that don't yield. No American bureaucrat wants to exercise a responsibility. They want blanket laws that they don't have to be responsible for. If the US had enforced a class 1 only rule like Europe there would be less problem. But we won't do sensible things here, we have to have all classes and therefore all access cut off to cover the bases.
I don't think sneaking into a non-motorized Forest Service trail is going to gain any increased access.
MOTO13
Active member
I am sure it's like this everywhere...I love this country, but without a doubt, we have some of the stupidest SOB's working for our government. Just so you understand, I am a former fed auditor and had to leave because of the pure fucking stupidity and waste I saw. Of all the people in the government, I would say MAYBE 5% gave one squirt about what they did and most were so close to be classified mentally retarded it was scary. They were doing jobs a friggin 4 yo could do and bitching they had to do it at all. Rant over...
By definition riding on unauthorized trails increases your access to the trails.
Also I don't have any issues riding trails when the MTB community benefits from unsanctioned trails and to a larger scale unsanctioned trails that eventually become sanctioned. It's like they don't give a fuck if rules are broken as long as it benefits them. Or maybe the whiners don't know about unsanctioned trails because they're nerds that don't know about cool stuff.
mike_kelly
E*POWAH Elite
"By definition riding on unauthorized trails increases your access to the trails."
Until you get a big fat ticket for breaking the law and all the associated nearby trails get shutdown because a few people can't seem to obey the laws. If you don't like the laws get them changed. That is the way the system works.
Until you get a big fat ticket for breaking the law and all the associated nearby trails get shutdown because a few people can't seem to obey the laws. If you don't like the laws get them changed. That is the way the system works.
Swingset
Active member
Here in the Santa Barbara area the USFS uses any excuse to shut down access. The primary one is some natural event like a fire or flood damage to just shut the gate and never fix it. The unintended consequence is that the stuff that is open get used hard. Pretty soon the motos start making alternative trails and then that get scrutiny as abusive. After five years of riding a class 1 I see no reason why they are frowned upon. The horses do far more damage and you are expending dick in terms of effort on one of those.
Litehiker
New Member
As an American taxpayer I feel that AS LONG AS E-MTB RIDING ON A TRAIL IS NOT DETREMENTAL TO THE TRAIL we should be permitted on USFS trails.
HELLS BELLS, the USFS actually BUILDS the roads for logging and oil and gas companies for "resource extractor AT TAXPAYERS' EXPENSE! So IMHO they can put a bit of their ill-gotten gains of resource sales into trail maintenance.
On the other hand... I want all bike riders, human powered and e-mtbs, to always, but ALWAYS, give way to pedestrians on trails. As a hiker and backpacker I've HAD IT with arrogant mountain bikers trying (but not succeeding) to blast past me. I hear them coming fast and I do NOT move aside until they are actually stopped and request passage. THEN I step aside. If I hear them coming slowly and announcing their presence I always step aside so they don't have to stop.
We E-MTB riders must be as courteous as humanly possible to hikers and backpackers. THEY have the right of way, not us.
HELLS BELLS, the USFS actually BUILDS the roads for logging and oil and gas companies for "resource extractor AT TAXPAYERS' EXPENSE! So IMHO they can put a bit of their ill-gotten gains of resource sales into trail maintenance.
On the other hand... I want all bike riders, human powered and e-mtbs, to always, but ALWAYS, give way to pedestrians on trails. As a hiker and backpacker I've HAD IT with arrogant mountain bikers trying (but not succeeding) to blast past me. I hear them coming fast and I do NOT move aside until they are actually stopped and request passage. THEN I step aside. If I hear them coming slowly and announcing their presence I always step aside so they don't have to stop.
We E-MTB riders must be as courteous as humanly possible to hikers and backpackers. THEY have the right of way, not us.
mike_kelly
E*POWAH Elite
Wrtie your representatives and ask for access for class 1 ebikes.
Mabman
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
I do my fair share of "poaching" here on the coast of Oregon without any blowback. It helps that there are only a handful of us that ride the locals and they aren't on any apps and we aim to keep it that way. For established trail riding the Wilson River trail system is about 40 minutes away and have been riding those sections for years on an emtb also. Ridden plenty of BLM and USFS trails across the west also.
I am glad that i don't have to travel to a bike park and pay to play as seems to be popular across the pond.
Edit to address the above comment: My current bike is a Bafang M620 bike with throttle and no limiter and I always yield to uphill traffic, hikers and horses as I have for the last 40 years. The class 1 elitism is as bad as the USFS stance on trail access and is a joke to me. Sorry.
I am glad that i don't have to travel to a bike park and pay to play as seems to be popular across the pond.
Edit to address the above comment: My current bike is a Bafang M620 bike with throttle and no limiter and I always yield to uphill traffic, hikers and horses as I have for the last 40 years. The class 1 elitism is as bad as the USFS stance on trail access and is a joke to me. Sorry.
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I don't know where you live. Maybe California where they're extra keen on fining people? I have never heard of anyone in the PNW being fined for eMTB riding. I've never seen a ranger out on any of our MTB trails. There's no enforcement. Ride at your own risk I guess.
I think you can advocate for trail access while you break the rules at the same time. How do you think Marijuana got legalized in so many places. Not a bunch of non cannabis users advocating for legalization so they could one day finally get high.
If you're a positive ambassador for the sport you can bring plenty of awareness to the sport and show that you're not a bunch of moto hooligans. You can advocate for local system changes and lobby for change. Many of the MTB bike shop employees own in my town own eMTBs. I've seen our local pros out on them using them to bring tools out for trail building and cameras for photoshoots. This is all done "illegally". The YouTube channel Loam Wolf has shots of them riding eMTB on trails that I know do not allow eMTB use.
I get that some have the tendency to be obligate rule followers. I don't judge you for going about I that way, but it's outright false fear mongering stating that eMTB use leads to increased trail restrictions. We see that there are places gaining increased access and I guarantee you those places had illegal eMTB use.
Outlaw MTB use has been a big part of the culture pushing MTB use to the next level for decades. MTB riders advocated for their trail access and didn't sit around with their bikes wishing they had somewhere to ride them. They got out and rode and built unsanctioned trails.
Ride your own ride. Follow the rules or don't follow them. Breaking rules doesn't make you a bad person.
Also with regards to trails getting shut down because of illegal use. A very popular trail in Bend called lower whoops had restricted use due to logging that was going on in the area. It was closed Monday through Friday and opened after 4pm on Friday through Sunday. Local MTB riders rode that trail all week long after 5 pm when the loggers went home. The forest rangers got really irritated about it and would post signs about the closure times, but the trail never got shut down permanently. I don't know anyone who ever got a fine for riding during closure times. It's still open today. Where I live the forest service wouldn't dare shut down access to a beloved trail because the MTB community would start a riot.
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mike_kelly
E*POWAH Elite
Every place is different. But there are plenty of haters out there and they are the ones that are going to turn you in. MTB riders, horseback riders and hikers. Not Rangers, they have better things to do. Remember it was a horse association that brought suite against the powers-that-be who unlocked trail access during the Trump admin. But the committees that decide access only need one rumor of illegal access to trails to make their point that all eMTB'er are bad. It is the game that is played. Those in power control. Those in the door first try and close and lock it if possible.
In my area it is a don't ask don't tell policy and everyone gets along.
Make your own bed.
In my area it is a don't ask don't tell policy and everyone gets along.
Make your own bed.
Sorry you're making a boogie man out of the idea of eMTB users breaking rules. The equestrians in Tahoe that sued about eMTB access did so after Tahoe national forest made a ruling to allow eMTB use without doing an environmental impact study or including open dialogue. It had nothing to do with eMTB use that was unsanctioned.
Every place that has expanded eMTB use had illegal eMTB use before access was granted. BLM has started improving access and it's a matter of time till all BLM land has eMTB use on trails that MTB have access to.
It doesn't matter how much you say that unsanctioned eMTB use will be detrimental to eMTB access. This hasn't proven to be a fact. Much to the contrary increasing the presence of eMTB so we have a louder voice has proven to improve access. We need more advocates and being present and making our voices heard is what will improve access.
If no one ever saw a responsible eMTB rider then they can only have their preconceived notions of hooliganism.
It's funny that you claim that your area is don't ask don't tell. That means eMTB use is unsanctioned in your area. So it's fine for you to break rules, but you want to wag your fingers at other people for doing it where they live.
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PennywiseTheDancingClown
Member
Wow can't believe you have such trouble over there... here in aus, at least where I live, it's all A-OK. I ride the same trails as everyone else.
Doesn't seem to be any REAL reason to have it otherwise.
Doesn't seem to be any REAL reason to have it otherwise.
I agree with this, the more people want it, the likelier it becomes reality, have seen this happen in my area. Inclusivity as an argument really hits home with advocates and land managers.
mike_kelly
E*POWAH Elite
I am not breaking any rules. You are.
You said it's don't ask don't tell. That isn't a written policy. If it was it would be that eMTB are permitted. So you are breaking rules.
mike_kelly
E*POWAH Elite
Not all rules are written but agreed upon. Everyone concurs. It is a way of testing change without causing panic and resentment.
Semantic bullshit. You're in denial that your breaking rules. You're pointing fingers at others and claiming they're breaking rules when you're doing the same thing. I'm over this you're either a xxxx or a troll.
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mike_kelly
E*POWAH Elite
I can see why you would be a leader in negotiating more emtb access.
Never claimed to be a leader, have no interest in being a leader. This is an internet forum not a negotiation table. Your hypocrisy and ignorance is apparent and obvious.
I'm not interested in continuing a debate over the eMTB access with someone who says to do one thing and doesn't follow their own advice. Unfortunately for you, you managed to clearly show everyone how ignorant and selfish you are. You're just getting called out for the stupid shit you say. Now you're defensive and regretting that you said it because now everyone can see that you're a hypocrite. Sorry that's just the truth.
I wish you well in your self-made hell.
I'm not interested in continuing a debate over the eMTB access with someone who says to do one thing and doesn't follow their own advice. Unfortunately for you, you managed to clearly show everyone how ignorant and selfish you are. You're just getting called out for the stupid shit you say. Now you're defensive and regretting that you said it because now everyone can see that you're a hypocrite. Sorry that's just the truth.
I wish you well in your self-made hell.
mike_kelly
E*POWAH Elite
Then don't continue. Go ride.
Cheers to that! Unfortunately our trail system is under some deep snow, so I'm going to the Smith Rock for some rock climbing. Enjoy the trails!
SwampNut
Well-known member
Where in AZ?? I have yet to see anything less than gracious and welcoming users of all kinds on the trails. I'm in the far NW area of Phoenix and mostly ride in my own area. And riding around Prescott, there are so few humans, so mostly no contact.
I'm pretty far from the closest McD, and it's down a major incline (so you have to ride back up). Therefore I drive there to get my triple stack McHeartAttack and XL fries with a 64 ounce Coke. Ok, I'm just kidding, I'd never drive there. It requires walking to/from the car so I just use Uber Eats. They have a new option where you can pay extra to have the driver come into the living room and lay it out in front of the TV, where I watch eMTB videos which is just as good as exercise.
I participate in quite a number of hobbies that have some component of controversy with them, and assholes who make the problem worse. Recreational shooting, hunting, drones and other RC toys, motorcycling, e-biking. Hell, even photography has its assholes who stomp on greenery and/or harass wildlife to "get the shot." My rule is to go mostly anywhere I want to, but don't be an asshole. I slow to my slowest stable speed for hikers. It never crossed my mind to do something otherwise. If I have a drone out, I keep it away from people, simple. When I go shoot, I clean up more than the mess I made, and make sure everyone is safe. All it takes is one asshole buzzing a hiker to screw things up.
On the other hand, I scared the shit out of a hiker the other day, but what else could I do? He had headphones, I approached very slowly, and said I'd pass to the left. Nothing. I said it loudly, and he jumped. Zero situational awareness.
JStrube
Active member
what are your feelings on riding trails that are in USFS areas?
weriding trails in USFS areas
Some beautiful shots. What are those trails in Nor Cal & Cen Cal? I'm in Cen Cal, in the valley, and don't recognize the scenery. We usually ride towards Arnold, Exchequer, or over in Wilder Ranch.
It's almost like you should have bought a bike instead of an e-bike.
It seems odd to buy something that you know is illegal to use locally, then complain that you are being treated unjustly. Any user group could use this tactic (i.e., where am I supposed to ride/ drive my XYZ!?)
That said, I have many places where e-bikes are legal locally, and many that aren't, and I will poach the really steep ones where there is literally no other traffic at all as there is no chance of user conflict.
Sometimes I see e-bikers acting like they are Rosa Parks or something participating in just Civil Disobedience, when in reality they are just breaking the law.
SwampNut
Well-known member
Anarchy is good. It's how we remind the people who want to be our masters that they are not.
Hi,
The „historical“ problem all around the globe. Same here in Germany, except better food
.
It was said before. The magic word and attitude is „yield“ and here and there a „Thank you“ when people let you pass or hold their dogs. There are to many egoists running down the trails and getting other people on recreation upset.
Some weeks ago I rode a very nice trail that is marked with a blue „Horse“ sign that I did not know. A horse riding lady came upwards and we had a really nice chat, when I stopped to give way. She explained to me that the sign marks a trail to be for .horse riding only - even no pedestrians - and that I would be the exception as not agressively riding and yelling when passing horses.
Thats why my motto is „Share the trail“ since I started riding MTB in the late 80s.
The „historical“ problem all around the globe. Same here in Germany, except better food
. It was said before. The magic word and attitude is „yield“ and here and there a „Thank you“ when people let you pass or hold their dogs. There are to many egoists running down the trails and getting other people on recreation upset.
Some weeks ago I rode a very nice trail that is marked with a blue „Horse“ sign that I did not know. A horse riding lady came upwards and we had a really nice chat, when I stopped to give way. She explained to me that the sign marks a trail to be for .horse riding only - even no pedestrians - and that I would be the exception as not agressively riding and yelling when passing horses.
Thats why my motto is „Share the trail“ since I started riding MTB in the late 80s.
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