Other Spec can see if derestricted?

[bowser]

Had a dealer tell me today that Spec can now see if a bike has been derestricted. Said one of his customers had a motor claim and Spec could tell him the exact date it had the chip plugged in and the warranty claim was to be rejected. Any truth to this or scare mongering?

 

[Christox]

Hi !

For old Levo/Kenevo gen1 via third party App Wheel circumference changes it is possible, that there is a logging. Newer Brose versions do not allow that parameter change.

For changes with a speed sensor-chip inline the reed switch sensor it is not possible to detect tuning directly.
If the motor stores the speed profile, speci could see that the bike was always moved below the limiter speed, which is not illegal.

i know from about 5 Motors of people which were running tuning and afterwards warrantied. Technically there is NO REASON why a derestriction tuning should have impact to reliability or warranty.

There are tuning chips available, that simulate speed near the switching limit, and then when the bike stands with TCU on, higher speeds are sent to the motor/Ecu to correct the overall distance and average speed.

Best regards,

Chris

 

[2WheelsNot4]

Im going to wait til im out of warranty before 'doctoring' it. Bosch are a funny lot about that type of thing and i dont want to give them any legally justifiable reasons.

 

[RebornRider]

I'm not aware of any current derestrictor methods that write to the TCU. All of the methods I'm aware of manipulate the speed sensor signal before it gets to the TCU. Some slow rotation of the magnet, others adjust the rate of electronic pulses coming from the sensor. There is no way to directly detect either of these. (Edited to say that you can't directly detect that these methods have been used if they are removed from the bike.)

However, I've heard that companies can compare the battery life estimate with the number of miles recorded in the TCU. If the distance traveled is "too small" for the amount of battery capacity lost, they can infer that the speed sensor has been tampered with.

 

[Repsol]

Take it from me, specialized CAN tell if your bike is chipped at least with the Gen 3 bikes. Any chip that alters the wheel size they can see.
I finally got shut of my troublesome Levo Comp and got a FULL refund but not before they tried implying that the so called reason for it needing 3 motor replacements in 3 month, was due to it been chipped.
Specialized refused to offer any good will and to take up any issues with the store.
I won't go into all the details, my advice to others is stand firm and tell them there talking bollocks. Fitting a derestrior does not void your warranty, nor does it stipulate such in the warranty.
Rider care even told me its OK if i had fitted one.
Their argument was to say that by fitting the derestrictor alters all other firmware parameters therfore causing motor errors and cut out. All I'll say is that after speaking with someone who knows what there talking about, that I was been told a load of bollocks.

If you have any concerns then make sure you buy from a store you can trust.

 

[RebornRider]

This must be something new with gen 3. I guess I need to learn how gen 3 derestriction works.

 

[Mikerb]

I wrote some time a go that the manufacturers were moving towards ways to detect derestricting, not motivated by potential damage to the motor/firmware but more so the risk they run of further regulation on pedelecs if they are not seen to be taking steps to ensure their bikes comply with the speed cut off regulations both at point of sale and thereafter. Any further regulation has the potential to damage volume of sales and/or significantly increase manufacture costs.
So I believe successive firmware updates most probably have included some detection measures.
I would be more wary of recent innovations like the Bosch smart system and the Specialized new TCU because by far the simplest way excess assisted speed could be detected is with the inclusion of a GPS chip in new hardware. The GPS chip would show the speed and a memory chip recording the battery amperage output would do the job.

 

[Repsol]

Surely this is in breach of the UK GDPR policy?

 

[Mikerb]

If the GPS was used to track location maybe but if the only GPS data stored is speed then probably not.

 

[mtbbiker]

I'm not aware of any current derestrictor methods that write to the TCU. All of the methods I'm aware of manipulate the speed sensor signal before it gets to the TCU. Some slow rotation of the magnet, others adjust the rate of electronic pulses coming from the sensor. There is no way to directly detect either of these. (Edited to say that you can't directly detect that these methods have been used if they are removed from the bike.)

However, I've heard that companies can compare the battery life estimate with the number of miles recorded in the TCU. If the distance traveled is "too small" for the amount of battery capacity lost, they can infer that the speed sensor has been tampered with.

I guess you could say you have more than one battery and that was the used one you bought? I have a Levo and a kenevo and one extra spare battery. On ebike trips, I’ve taken all 3 batteries with me. I’m sure others have more than 1 battery. Just a thought.

 

[Planemo]

I guess you could say you have more than one battery and that was the used one you bought? I have a Levo and a kenevo and one extra spare battery. On ebike trips, I’ve taken all 3 batteries with me. I’m sure others have more than 1 battery. Just a thought.

I wouldn't be surprised if the system logged the amount of use with each battery. I suspect the battery serial numbers are recorded?

 

[Cb750stu]

Jeez oh it's like "black ops operations" watch out for strange cars parked outside your house big brother is watching eh

 

[Gee_Whiz]

Are the latest gen Levos able to be de-restricted at all?

 

[Cb750stu]

Are the latest gen Levos able to be de-restricted at all?

They certainly are

 

[RebornRider]

Jeez oh it's like "black ops operations" watch out for strange cars parked outside your house big brother is watching eh

I take your point, but OTOH I worked for ESL for many years at the beginning of my career as an electronics design engineer. This was at a time before the public had access to GPS. I saw one proposal to install covert (their word, not mine) antennas in the roofs of cars so they could be tracked. It was a serious proposal and ESL had the tech to make it work. And, FWIW, I didn't just hear about it. I read the proposal.

ESL Incorporated - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Planemo]

Wow. ESL seemed to have some shit hot stuff going on. Musta been an awesome job!

 

[RebornRider]

Wow. ESL seemed to have some shit hot stuff going on. Musta been an awesome job!

It was an interesting place to work because it had the highest of high tech stuff to play with, but the security rules got to be a royal pain. My favorite story is the lie detector test I failed because my respiration rate was "too slow". The guy running the test said that he had a lower limit and I was below that. We ran through the test a second time. I failed that one too, this time because he said my respiration rate was a multiple of my heart beat (3 beats per inhale, I think). He said that's how spies try to beat the test. Then he gave me the best instruction ever!

"Breathe faster, but breathe normally." He didn't see the humor in that guidance!

The other noteworthy thing about ESL is Richard Wade Farley. I joined right after that bit of drama. Richard Farley - Wikipedia

 

[boBE]

"Breathe faster, but breathe normally." He didn't see the humor in that guidance!

Kinda' like Han Solo: "Keep your distance though, Chewie…but don’t look like your tryin’ to keep your distance. "

 

[ian408]

Im going to wait til im out of warranty before 'doctoring' it. Bosch are a funny lot about that type of thing and i dont want to give them any legally justifiable reasons.

Don't forget, BOSCH is big in vehicle control as well. So they have the methods/technology for detecting all sorts of things. What they cannot detect electronically, they might determine through measurement.

 

[F4Flyer]

I bet they can check for any changes to the motor, and it would be a good way to reject a warranty claim. In the US, we donlt really need to but many will want to, especially with full-power e-bikes. I sold mine and have a Levo SL now so I certainly have no need for it but if I did, I would wait till the 2-year warranty period was over.

 

[RobG]

I have a feeling this may not apply to stuff like bikes and OHVs, but there's the Magnussen-Moss Warranty Act that specifically says a manufacturer CANNOT deny warranty coverage unless they can prove that a part or modification was DIRECTLY responsible for an otherwise covered part's failure. I'll have to look into that. Of course, dealers and mfrs will try to do it, knowing you'll have to take them to court to make them fix it. Still, the law is there.