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- #61
Who said all i want to do is hit kickers?
A ride has many features. Some have short run ups and the more speed you can find the more fun the jump is.
The decoy is in its stock setup for the CF pro. i am 75kg
Shimano needs more power.
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Who said all i want to do is hit kickers?
A ride has many features. Some have short run ups and the more speed you can find the more fun the jump is.
The decoy is in its stock setup for the CF pro. i am 75kg
No one said that's ALL you want to do. I said "if" that's ALL you want to do. but it does seems to be the main point you're unhappy about with the motor and derestricting it would actually solve your issue.
Got any pics of these jumps? it might help us understand why you need so much more speed than on a normal bike (I'd assume the jumps were built by normal mtbers for normal mtbs)
The Rebound on the Kenevo may be set differently to the Decoy, plus is the Kenevo Derestricted and the Decoy not?
Sounds like you are going to be happier with the Kenevo
Sounds like you are going to be happier with the Kenevo
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- #64
The Rebound on the Kenevo may be set differently to the Decoy, plus is the Kenevo Derestricted and the Decoy not?
Sounds like you are going to be happier with the Kenevo
Doesnt matter as both bikes were under 20mph and the decoy is in US mode so 20mph limit.
I had a fair bit of rebound on the forks.
Im not sure what the relevance is though. The shimano has lower specs all around and thats likely the reason why.
Master_G
Member
not gonna lie, my misses vitus e-sommet VRX (e8000) jumps further & higher than my Kenevo.
Master_G
Member
but my kenevo is running 2.8 DH casing tyres where as hers are 2.4/2.5, she has a lot more pressure in hers than i do and hers is a lot lighter.
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- #67
Weight seems to be a big factor. Rob said that between the Levo and the Kenevo 2020 there is 20%
A lighter rider might find more difference between motors but a heavy rider might find them all the same.
The relevance is
More rebound = less pop
and seeing as pretty much no one on the planet runs faster rebound rear than front you've gotta assume the rear was even slower (and even less poppy).
The ESommet is a far more playful nimble bike than the Kenevo in a similar size (wheelbase/reach rather than manufacturers labelled sizes)
There are many reasons for this, not just weight.
- Thread starter
- #69
I think you are over thinking it.
It was noticeable that the Kenevo was hitting the jump at a higher speed. It had more power to accelerate over the short run up.
I might report back tomorrow after my ride out that there is very little in it. But until i get this limiter taken off it wont be a fair comparison yet
Simple solution - Buy a bike that has a Brose and suits your needs. I am happy with the E8000.
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- #72
I'm guessing you didnt read the thread then
dodged a bullet TBF
Paulquattro
Meet & Greet Elite
I Could not agree more
Im amazed at the OP info as i hadnt realized that a lower power spec,d motor wouldnt be so powerful
Im also at a total loss as too what this thread is or was going to achieve as i read through it and couldnt see the point of it,
i kept reading thou hopping it was going somewhere but alas it didnt
If one is not happy with a bike sell it and move on as the OP is doing
what the thread is going to do beyond this nugget of info thou is a mystery
as long as the OP is happy with his new purchase thou all is good i do think he wants more from an EMTB than its designed for thou .
Have a Good evening all .
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- #75
Well i did 80% of the 700w battery today on single track and some downhill jump sections.
The shimano doesnt even come close to the Brose. There clearly is a limit from the 250w power of all motors which is probably what i was experiencing when charging up single track but where the brose wins hands down is the fact that i hardly ever seem to need to change gear. It flies up hills quicker. its quicker off the line and the speed limit isnt anywhere near as abrupt. If i can get the Brose in to USA settings it will be perfect for what i want to do.
Having ridden both now id say the best benefit is how less fussy the motor is with which gear you are in. Where as on the shimano i always felt that i was either one too high or too low depending on what i was doing.
The shimano doesnt even come close to the Brose. There clearly is a limit from the 250w power of all motors which is probably what i was experiencing when charging up single track but where the brose wins hands down is the fact that i hardly ever seem to need to change gear. It flies up hills quicker. its quicker off the line and the speed limit isnt anywhere near as abrupt. If i can get the Brose in to USA settings it will be perfect for what i want to do.
Having ridden both now id say the best benefit is how less fussy the motor is with which gear you are in. Where as on the shimano i always felt that i was either one too high or too low depending on what i was doing.
Yeah. I'd agree.
Preferring not to have to change gear is a new one on me but this is hardly the first Emtb noob thread with a rider who wants the bike to do ALL the skillful stuff for them. Take fitting children's length cranks rather than looking where you're going, planning ahead and positioning pedals for example.
But yeah. so long as he's happy.
I'd take all the "failings" of the Shimano motor found here with a huge pinch of salt though.
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- #77
Do you go around this forum acting like a bell end on purpose or was you born this way? The numerous threads i see where you end up arguing with people is astounding. Seems that anyone elses opinion is worthless because you have some "elite self diagnosed superiority" Maybe you have been spending too much time in the woods and not around enough people. (or maybe the people just stay away from you)
I really dont need any advice from you. I dont need you to diagnose my issues with the bike or motor or even the way i ride.
Dont reply to my threads and dont respond to my questions.
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The Kenevo is not a trail bike. If your intended purpose is pure gap jumps and hits then you've got yourself the right weapon in a Kenevo. That's all Bike Park or Freeride stuff. Its intended purpose. If you're saying there's a jump line you love lapping that your Decoy lacks, a Kenevo then yes of course, is your correct weapon of choice for what you like to do.
However, a Decoy can do almost everything well. The Kenevo does certain things very well. But lacks in other areas. General single track which is 95% of what most of us ride then the Decoy, IMHO is way more fun. The Kenevo is a tank. That's just me of course. It's all about the intended purpose, and personal preference.
It's so hard on here to say what's right for anyone based on what's said without riding with them.
A bike is the same choice as a car, what are you going to do with it? What's your skill level? Where are you taking it regularly? What do you like? What do you want to do with it? etc etc
You've given us one example of where the Decoy/Shimano didn't meet your expectations. It climbs fine. I found it the best bike I've ridden to play with (29er) You have to be in the right gear, that's basic MTB stuff. That's where many say it's more natural, and love it for it being more natural and not rely on the motor to boot you over a jump or feature. Otherwise, we are getting onto MX territory which of course many people have come off and expected the same performance.
As for rider input approaching a jump to keep the same speed and pop between a Brose and Shimano. Too hard to say. An Acoustic may be easier and less effort.
The Brose hides a lot of 'skill' errors as does a Kenevo. That's not a stab at you. I had a very wanky car before, and it hid I was a bad driver. Just great design. But then the guys at the track driving Ariel Atom's said I was the wanker with all the driver-assist and design extras, and extra power. I Couldn't win. It helped me mucho. If you want to let the motor do all the work and not think tooooo hard then yes I would say you've made the right choice. However, I would say you're sacrificing some skill development as a rider. That being said it's all about thinking ahead and reading the trail and climb ahead. That's most of the fun for me.
For me, the Shimano just puts me in a more Natural mindset but I have the absolute privilege of it not being my bike, I'm just trying it out.
For me, when I rode the Decoy, it met all my expectations from the perspective of it can do anything, it's just a different skillset with that Motor Combo. Every bike/motor/battery has different iterations of what's expected of you as the rider. Take the Levo SL. It's really not for everyone. I don't think it's so much the motor, it's more what you expect from it. It's less powerful next Brose and others. That's no secret. Maybe the Brose is what you want. You do a hit a wall right at the wrong point, possibly on a jump.
All the questions I ask, can't be answered without knowing you personally. It's up to you, and it's your money. What you love as the rider.
@Gary Is a very decent rider who could probably ride anything, anywhere. We aren't all like that. He's applying his skill, to your problem. I would not take offense. 3 years down the track you may see what he may or may not be saying..As always it's your choice. This is an internet forum with every level of skill and tact all smashed into one wonderful arena..
If you're mostly riding Gaps, Drops, Hips, Bike Parks etc then Yeh get the Kenevo. If it's 95% Singletrack and your swapping out the Decoy as it's not perfoming for the 5% as the Kenevo would your gonna find the Kenevo just doesn't give you the fun you get from other the 95% on the Decoy. It's super fun to start with riding a carpet that soaks everything up, but then your just a passenger, rather than the pilot of the bike....Just my 5c....
There's no bad bike out there. It's all down to what you like!
Enjoy your choice and keep smiling....!! That's what the we are all here to promote....
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- Thread starter
- #79
Well i took the kenevo on trail today. Ive ridden trail bikes, enduro bikes and now a double crown enduro bike on the same track. The one thing that always seems to get worse is the trail condition. What starts off as a nice flowing single trail turns on to a kicker drop in to craters of breaking bumps. Ive hit these on a Fox 34, a Fox 36 a Lyric a Pike and now a boxxer. I can tell you that the boxxer handled it better than any fork i have ever owned. There is obviously some trade off with agility of a Kenevo with a Boxxer but it doesnt struggle on trails no matter how tight. It just takes some muscle to man handle the bike around which after each ride gets easier. I liken it to weight training.
What annoys me is that people like to pigeon hole other people in to certain styles of riding. Then try and pigeon hole a bike on to someone saying X Y is better for ABC. Today i witnessed 3 crashes on hard tails in the downhill section with one going to hosptial. Another guy do a 15 foot jump on a 140mm full suspension bike and everything in between. Whilst one bike is better than another for one type of activity there are some bikes which out perform others whilst only slightly being disadvantaged in the areas they were not designed for.
I favour suspension performance, bike geometry and stability over agility and weight. Because if i want to push the envelope a bit i know there is more bike there than i likely have skill which means that if i mess up the chances of being in an ambulance are slimmer. Today i jumped a rock garden drop on a second run but twice as fast as i did it the first time. This resulted in a much bigger drop than i was expecting. I blew through 180mm of travel and the bike ate it up easily. Would i trade this performance to gain some agility on a trail? Not a chance. Do i miss the agility of a Levo? Not really. The Kenevo drops and jumps and handles rough stuff better than a trail bike but the trail bike only slightly out performs on a trail. This is the benefit of a motor.
In terms of the decoy there was nothing wrong with it. Except the pedal strikes which you have to keep in mind. At first i wasnt sure if i had made the right choice but after riding the Kenevo more im glad i changed. I dont feel like i have lost any performance but i feel like i have gained in other areas which gives me a net positive.... well except on the wallet
Then your happy dude. But bear in mind that Kenevo is doing the work for you, from what you are saying.
Mate it's ALL about fun. Not about speed. Most on here will talk about pure speed and skill. A Kenevo supps up all trail chatter for you where a trail bike expects you to work the trail. Pop and Jib a trail on a light(er) less travel bike and it's a different trail. A Kenevo won't pop trail features. Or you won't be arsed...That's the most fun dude. The little poppers. Kenevo just blasts them all or you don't want to pull 180mm, 24kg odd through them....
Do you want to blast straight and let the machine improve your time, or you...I was in your camp but for mostly trail riding less travel is more fun...150mm seems to be the sweet spot. I ride mostly Surrey Hills so 150mm is perfect for me. A Kenevo is a stable blast straight downhill stable. I want some feedback. Again, just me.
At the end of the day, it's what puts the biggest smile on your face and makes you feel good.
Sounds like you found your steed. Decoy is a trampoline for the trail, Kenevo is a Magic Carpet for big jumps..!! What are you riding mostly...??
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- Thread starter
- #81
I hit every kicker and jump and drop i can find. I think I'm jumping higher than I was on my decoy but that could be in my head. I put a bit of rebound on the coil and I was flying off kickers. This is what i wanted the motor power for and so far it's not disappointed me. I ran the whole day in shuttle mode 100% and pedal response 100%.
No doubt it takes more effort to jump the Kenevo off kickers but it also takes less effort to drop 4 foot off a step down on to flat landing. Swings and roundabouts.
Personally I have never liked the feeling of wobbly flexing forks and less stable geometry. This is the longest wheel base bike i have owned with the beefiest forks I've used. Confidence is important to improving and this bike gives you plenty.
I also like being back on 27.5s
Then You've found your bike.. Higher is not a Metric with jumps, it's about distance. Extra Height to clear a jump really comes with pure style to Whip or Table.. As long as you clear a gap it doesn't matter how high you went, unless you want to, based on your entry speed. It sounds like your relying on motor assistance for that.
You're using the motor as a Motorbike, not an eMTB if you're using Shuttle at 100/100. The bike is doing it for you buddy, pushing you over a jump. You should not be using 100/100 to clear an MTB jump as your gonna get all out of sorts as you progress. If you are ex MX you're used to loads of extra speed from the throttle pre-jump and the eMTB isn't going to give you this but please be wary..You can come up way short way before the lip...!! The way you're talking your possible ex MX..
Drop to flat on a Kenevo with 180mm against 150mm/160mm is chalk and cheese mate..!! It's gonna soak the whole lot up..Again I go back to the MX statement. This is not Moto suspension.
Dude, please don't hit something you haven't before on an acoustic simply because you have all that travel and newfound power under your feet on an MTB trail. I always get towed in. You have to hit a jump at the right speed waaaaay before you're used to if you are ex MX. There's not much margin even with a motor. Its gonna feel hella fast on an MTB compared to what you're maybe used to on an MX. And you can't adjust the bike position in the air with the throttle...
I, and other friends, have ended up in A&E from the confidence these things inspire when my skill wasn't up to it.
All good being the big man on these forums not to lose face bro, but please be careful. These things can, and will, put you in hospital and a lot of pain.
You're using the motor as a Motorbike, not an eMTB if you're using Shuttle at 100/100. The bike is doing it for you buddy, pushing you over a jump. You should not be using 100/100 to clear an MTB jump as your gonna get all out of sorts as you progress. If you are ex MX you're used to loads of extra speed from the throttle pre-jump and the eMTB isn't going to give you this but please be wary..You can come up way short way before the lip...!! The way you're talking your possible ex MX..
Drop to flat on a Kenevo with 180mm against 150mm/160mm is chalk and cheese mate..!! It's gonna soak the whole lot up..Again I go back to the MX statement. This is not Moto suspension.
Dude, please don't hit something you haven't before on an acoustic simply because you have all that travel and newfound power under your feet on an MTB trail. I always get towed in. You have to hit a jump at the right speed waaaaay before you're used to if you are ex MX. There's not much margin even with a motor. Its gonna feel hella fast on an MTB compared to what you're maybe used to on an MX. And you can't adjust the bike position in the air with the throttle...
I, and other friends, have ended up in A&E from the confidence these things inspire when my skill wasn't up to it.
All good being the big man on these forums not to lose face bro, but please be careful. These things can, and will, put you in hospital and a lot of pain.
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- Thread starter
- #83
I have had 180mm travel on my enduro bike without motor. I have never ridden a Mx bike. I'm not sure you realise that I've been riding since 2008 off and on.
The jumps are not gaps and the jumps are not distance based as the ones I was referring to were kickers on the side of trails. With the exception of the rock drop.
There are plenty of jumps i dont even attempt. Never broke a bone and never ended up in hospital. Worst thing I did was cut my finger on a lawn mower blade. So not sure you have worked me out correctly so far lol.
This was my first bike. Santa Cruz nomad. Look at the cable routing lol. Those hope techs were still quality looking kit even back then.
I'm more starting to wonder if your e8000 doesn't have a fault or isn't setup correctly, did you run etube or stunlocker to check the settings.
From another thread :
www.emtbforums.com
I have plenty of climbs where my time on my e8000 bike is faster than my Kenevo. The Shimano doesn't have the same smooth power delivery as the Brose, but once you learn to "milk it" (for me, with my e8000, it felt like just gunning it didn't necessarily give you the best performance response, you almost needed to gently balance the feed in with the acceleration of the bike as if you were spinning a turbo up) it's not far off as fast as the Brose, though it does feel slower.
Eitherway, you have the Kenevo now and hopefully love that and I think your Decoy has gone... so ENJOY !
From another thread :
Buy a 540w battery for spare battery or wait for 700w out?!
Hi,thinking to buy a spare battery go for a big ride.But do you guys think 700w battery still possible coming out any time soon? Do you think buying spare 540w battery use both battery for some day or just get a 700w battery and that put the 540W always?(be wasted it) I know 540w £539.what about...
www.emtbforums.com
I have plenty of climbs where my time on my e8000 bike is faster than my Kenevo. The Shimano doesn't have the same smooth power delivery as the Brose, but once you learn to "milk it" (for me, with my e8000, it felt like just gunning it didn't necessarily give you the best performance response, you almost needed to gently balance the feed in with the acceleration of the bike as if you were spinning a turbo up) it's not far off as fast as the Brose, though it does feel slower.
Eitherway, you have the Kenevo now and hopefully love that and I think your Decoy has gone... so ENJOY !
Probably don't start threads slagging off perfectly capable bikes or motors if you can't cope with a bit of honesty.
I'm glad you've found your perfect bike
Like I said. As long as you're happy.
There's honestly no need to throw insults around or make personal digs in a perfectly civil discussion, It shows nothing more than your own insecurities.
I'm fairly confident you wouldn't even think of doing the same away from your keyboard if you met me, saw me ride the jumps in question on a shimano motor (or normal mtb) and I offered you exactly the same advice with your jumping issues.
block me if you can't handle my input.
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- #86
This is your problem Gary. You think me saying the Shimano needs more power is "don't start threads slagging off perfectly capable bikes or motors" That is your own insecurity right there. Nobody is slagging it off. Its a good motor and in the top tier but its also on its way out and being replaced. There is a reason why its being replaced, times have moved on.
Also dont tell me about throwing insults around. You are the king of underhand disguised digs. Sarcasm being the lowest form of wit you clearly have mastered. Your response is to attack someones skill from an internet forum. You have never seen me ride and you will never guess how i ride. So what makes you think you can come here and dismiss my opinion because you think its my technique?
I own both bikes and both motors and rode them back to back. So my experience trumps your opinion right now. That and the fact the motors specs show its got a clear advantage in terms of performance.
Also Gary, Im fairly confident you would crawl up your backside if ever confronted so less of the internet tough man. Im pretty sure you are well on track to being the most blocked member of this forum. No doubt you can add some value but quite frankly the way you choose to converse just makes people want to ignore you.
I've owned and ridden far too many bikes to ever be insecure about someone finding fault with any component or brand. They're just bikes and i don't actually understand anyone who becomes emotionally tied to certain brands.
For disagreeing with your opinion that you need a more powerful motor to manage a jump folk with no motor at all can manage to?
The only crawling I'd be doing would be from laughing at you so hard I might struggle to stay on my feet.
Confrunted about what exactly?
For disagreeing with your opinion that you need a more powerful motor to manage a jump folk with no motor at all can manage to?
The only crawling I'd be doing would be from laughing at you so hard I might struggle to stay on my feet.
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