Well, start a thread on something American then, while those of us who aren't emotionally incontinent manage to stick with the subject at hand.
Santa Cruz Avinox , Fake or reality ?
- Thread starter Geew
- Start date
China is Australia's biggest trading partner by a factor of nearly 3. So you take your precautions to protect your personal information. But not using Chinese equipment is impossible. And we are doing just fine.
We have a good relationship with China. As a result, we have access to products significantly cheaper than the UK and US. This then provides Australian's with a very healthy standard of living. So if the rest of the world wants to live in fear, uncertainty and doubt. Knock yourselves out. We here will get on with business and our very fortunate lives.
Part of that is the pastime of riding EMTBs that give the best performance. Currently Avinox motor systems are rated as one of the leaders in EMTB systems. This brings us back to the OP's topic. People are buying EMTBs with the Avinox, motor, battery and tech system, purely for access to this system. Any manufacturer ignoring this will suffer financially.
Shimano and Bosch will hopefully up their game. But when they do. It will partly be driven by the kick up the arse that Avinox is providing. And having a top of the range Shimano EP801 EMTB and an Avinox motored EMTB. The chasm between them is huge.
This isn't just my opinion. It's the opinion of the many people I have leant my Avinox and Shimano EMTBs too. Even they are saying, they will need to revisit what budget they need to allow for their EMTB purchase, because they want the Avinox System.
That's all very warm & fuzzy but adjacent to the point. Everyone has a good relationship with China because they can't afford not to. An Australian guy telling me his awesome standard of living is dependent on a foreign power doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. It's a textbook definition of a one sided deal. Nice bikes though.
We make no cars. We make no Ebikes. We make no phones. We make no computers. We are a mineral rich country, with a small population. Our specialties tend to be niche products, not large volume. We could never compete in these markets. So we don't try.
So yes we are dependant on foreign countries for our supply chain. But no one is losing sleep over buying Chinese Ebike motor systems, due to data concerns. It would be so far down our list of concerns. Hence why I'm befuddled that it's being raised as a concern in this thread. I don't know how you guys sleep at night, if this is what you worry about.
But if China decides to shut us out. We'll buy elsewhere. Sure it will cost us more. But we can afford it because we have saved so much trading with China.
This is a valid reason. I much prefer a cleaner cockpit. Hence why I only run the single remote. You can change pages by swiping the screen, meaning you don't need the second remote.
Highland Wheels
Well-known member
Yeah was gonna say, I removed the second remote after my first ride as well
Only issue I have with the remote is I need to run it inboard of my brake lever due to the matchmaker style clamp that the Dominions use not allowing me to get the levers far enough out, but that's not an Avinox problem
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The most critical problem right now is that no manufacturers are able to compete with the packaging of the Avinox system (Slim motor, slim battery, great display & wireless controler).
This packaging is the key ingredient on having pretty light full power eMTBs considering the 800wh battery. As a result the other full power bikes are 1 generation behind as they're heavier with fat down tubes.
Bosch might have the most market share right now, but their current battery format is slowly becoming a problem and they need to fix this ASAP. They really need to be able to compete with the looks of Avinox bikes.
Anyway, Santa Cruz can't catch a breath with their eMTB game : EP8 saga, unreliable Fazua with no extender on their SL bikes and being forced to use Bosch 600wh to design a great looking bike.
This packaging is the key ingredient on having pretty light full power eMTBs considering the 800wh battery. As a result the other full power bikes are 1 generation behind as they're heavier with fat down tubes.
Bosch might have the most market share right now, but their current battery format is slowly becoming a problem and they need to fix this ASAP. They really need to be able to compete with the looks of Avinox bikes.
Anyway, Santa Cruz can't catch a breath with their eMTB game : EP8 saga, unreliable Fazua with no extender on their SL bikes and being forced to use Bosch 600wh to design a great looking bike.
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Yes, all great points and excellent summary of the current state of the art. I have been wondering when Bosch with its advantages of quiet, powerful, efficient motor will redesign their battery to the new form factor that is in demand.
I also wonder when we will see, easily removable batteries for the Avinox bikes.
I'm not sure anyone will produce this. One of the big selling points from the manufacturers using the Avinox motor system, has been the slimline frame. The selling point being that it looks and feels like an SL, but is full power and ranged.
Making it removeable with such a long slim battery, will require bulking up that downtube. Which then gives you an EMTB that looks no different to the slew of other motored EMTBs.
I have overcome all the issues I had with a non-removable battery, by buying an 800wh Ecoflow. But it doesn't solve it for those who like to do big adventure rides, and carry a spare battery. You certainly can't practically carry the Ecoflow on the bike with you.
The only solution is carrying the fast charger, and stopping for meals somewhere with electricity. The Avinox battery chargers very quick. About 1% a minute. But I'm sure some want to be totally independant of electricity on some big rides.
Actually it’s just a thought and an observation. The second remote really has no part in my disinterest of the Avinox.
I was perfectly happy with my Gen 4 Bosch and the Gen 5 with the screen and a non rattling motor is that much better.
Another valid point about the rattle. I got lucky and have a quiet one. The later releases seems to be better. But also using a lower engagement hub definitely helps.
I was also very happy with my Shimano EP801, till I rode an Avinox Powered EMTB. I still have the Merida E160 with the EP801. But my motivation to use it wanes as my riding has improved so much on the Avinox EMTB.
I loaned the Merida to a mate 2 weeks ago. So I thought I best give it a test ride on some local urban trails I ride, as I hadn't ridden it in months. I was absolutely gob-smacked by how much harder it was to climb stairs, I just fly up with the Avinox Motor.
There is definitely a learning curve to using the Avinox Motor in Turbo Mode. But once you have mastered it. The routes you can climb, that you couldn't previously, is really impressive.
I road on the weekend with some guys I used to ride with a lot, but haven't ridden with since getting the Avinox EMTB. They asked if I'd been taking MTB lessons at Thredbo. (A local MTB park with guides and instructors) It really does make that much difference to your ability to climb technical routes.
Anyway. My point is that if climbing technical is why you ride a EMTB over an MTB. Any motor system will work just fine, and anyone will be happy on anything. But some motors will just do it so much better.
CarolinaCrawler
Active member
I think Crestline nailed it on this one. I really like their solution for battery mounting. The Bosch system they had is second to none.
Mario Antony
Active member
Who cares = YESI’ve just waded through a fair bit of effluent, are Santa Cruz going with Avinox or not?!
Who don't give a s... = Who cares!
I wonder what Rob thinks ....... 
...........
...........Sadly it seems Rob thinks what Amflow pays him to think.I wonder what Rob thinks .......
I wonder what Rob thinks .......
His subscribers already know…
48s into the video, “Supported by Avinox and Amflow, all opinions my own”. What does that even mean? Advertorial?
Anyway, anybody who has watched Rob for a while will know he’s a fan of the Amflow, which is cool.
My issue is and has always been not with power or software or features, it’s the fact that people (including yourself) are running them in NZ mode via the VPN hack, seems people want more assisted speed above everything else. Nm and Watts won’t get EMTBs banned from trails, speed will.
Rob himself is always evasive about whether he’s riding his in 45kMh mode, perhaps understandably, but a few of his videos show very fast uphill clips.
But anyway, another thread polluted by folks pushing ‘their’ brand, are Santa Cruz going Avinox or not?
At guadarrama, a spanish site with very interesting information on motors, they have a shocking explanation on the differences that really make the avinox superior. Ebike Guadarrama
Though it might sound funny, truth is that the chinese have superior material and technology, both on magnets and chips. Even some proprietary bearings.
Watch they compare the size of an avinox board to the bosch, and how a smaller board can be better isolated from the moving parts. I used to think it was going to be just a matter of time until the avinox showed its weakness, but after watching their explanations I have changed my mind.
Though it might sound funny, truth is that the chinese have superior material and technology, both on magnets and chips. Even some proprietary bearings.
Watch they compare the size of an avinox board to the bosch, and how a smaller board can be better isolated from the moving parts. I used to think it was going to be just a matter of time until the avinox showed its weakness, but after watching their explanations I have changed my mind.
Not true. I like the Avinox system. Always have done ever since I first tried it. I also have mentioned in many videos that it's not perfect.
Amflow don’t ‘pay me what to think’. They pay me for the work it takes to film, edit and publish a video. My opinions stay my opinions.
Right from the original sponsored Amflow video, I called out many negatives on camera. I’ve pulled those verbatim points from that video and listed them here
Slow-speed control issues
• “Sometimes… a little bit more difficult to control” when starting on steep climbs.
• “I find it tricky to actually get started in a controlled manner.”
Geometry limitations affecting climbing
• “The seat tube angle could be a bit steeper… especially on the XL and larger bikes.”
• “A longer rear chain stay would definitely help.”
Rear tyre performance
• “The rear tire is too weak and lacks grip and not really suited to this bike.”
Front-end handling / cockpit stiffness
• “The front does feel a little bit nervous for me.”
• “The stock bar and stem can feel quite flexy.”
6. Spec holding the bike back
• “Part of me wishes the Amflow hadn’t gone so light on everything… I feel it’s being held back a touch by the spec.”
7. Motor–frame mismatch
• “It feels like there’s a bit of a mismatch between the motor and the bike.”
• “The motor is so powerful but the bike is a little bit weak at some of the gnarlier trails.”
• “There’s a bit of a character mismatch between the two.”
8. Frame/build strength vs power
• “It’s a paradox that the motor is so punchy and powerful yet the frame and build of the bike is pretty light duty.”
Maybe this wasnt the best wording to add. For context:
This simply means they didn’t tell me what to say, what angle to take, or what conclusions to make. They simply supported the production of the video (time, filming, etc). I scripted planned, filmed, edited etc and give my own opinions exactly the same as any other video. If they’d asked for control over the narrative, I wouldn’t have taken the project.
I came up with the idea for the power debate video and pitched it to them. They paid to support the production, but had zero input on the script or the opinions. If they wanted any control over the message, I wouldn’t have taken the project.
I’ll be honest, making a brand collab videos is hard to balance because you’re trying to be upfront about the support while also delivering something that isn’t an advert. For me the line is simple... the brand can support the production, but they don’t get to steer what I say. Same with all the videos I make, all the bike videos are brand supported (and always disclosed) and I always try to add pros and cons of every bike / product I feature.
The Power Debate video listed above was not a review but supposed to be more of a conversational piece around speed limits and power, and hopefully the video was of some use/entertainment or value to some viewers!
Thanks for taking the time to reply Rob, it is appreciated, and the video (like all of them) I did watch and got some value from it.
Obviously, I’m not a ‘YouTuber’ so know nothing about why you need support with production and why a manufacturer would give it without expecting anything in return? What does ‘time and filming’ mean anyway?
Most blokes of a certain age, myself included, approach things with a certain amount of caution and cynicism, hence why I feel the way I do.
I hear what you say about Nm and Watts kind of being irrelevant with regard to EMTB motors, but assist restriction isn’t, presumably why you created a specific section of the forum for it and prefer such talk to be contained in it?
I’m still of the view that one of the big reasons the Avinox is so popular isn’t because of its power or torque, but because of how easy it is to VPN unlock. I’ve had pleasant chats with a couple of Amflow owners on my long ‘lone wolf’ rides in the Lake District, and also at the usual trail centres. Once we end our chat and we all move off, they disappear, zero chance they’re at 25kMh, absolutely zero.
Sure, the Avinox motor and in particular the controller and software look superb, the shifting without pedalling etc, really great touches amongst other things that it has brought to the party.
But, if you want people to have a debate about motors and power, it has to be an honest one including what it’s like with EU restriction implemented.
I’ve had a short ride on an Amflow a couple of times now, both in UK and NZ mode, different experiences for different reasons. Fellow trail users are used to seeing mtbs moving quickly downhill, we need to credit them with some sense, what does make people stop and point is a ‘pedal cycle’ going uphill at 30mph… The comparison to road bike speeds felt like a deflection in the video to be honest.
Well they clearly didn’t make enough.
This is entitrely your own confection leading directly from your last confection that it 'looked a bit quick going uphill' The debate you're having is with yourself. God spare us from Lincolnites with an axe to grind, last time that got out of control, they elected Andrea f*****g Jenkyns.
No probs. Happy to help clarify some stuff.
To help explain here's how I approach working with a brand in a "collaboration video" (lets call it a paid partnership), and putting a price to it is a combination of the following...
When I say “time and filming” I literally mean the whole process of making a video end to end. A proper piece takes many days of work (yes even for a short 10-15 minute video!).... planning, researching, filming studio sections, shooting B roll shots.
In all the bike review videos, its shooting riding shots, hiring someone to shoot multiple days at a pro day rate, some travel days if abroad, usually 2 days sometimes 3, adding video graphics, editing, colour, audio, the lot. It’s a big chunk of time and it basically becomes my “job” for that week. I use kit worth £15k+ for it too, all of it is bundled into "time and filming"
Time also required is prior testing of a bike, like being in for delivery, setup, dealing with the return. All of the "admin" boring stuff. Then before filming a bike video, there's a good amount of riding before hand (sounds like fun, which it is, but its also a *job* riding and trying stuff out!)
Last time I added it up, its around 100 hours of human work / effort to make a bike video like this
For the above linked video about the Power Debate.... Why would a manufacturer support that? Because my channel has one of the biggest reaches in the eMTB space, so there is value for them in simply being associated with a topic people care about. And Avinox is also more than the power alone and I thought that was worth talking to.
I pitched the idea to Avinox, they didnt come up with the idea or the content. The idea for this one came from the article I wrote on this site Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB? as I thought it was an interesting hot topic about emtb's this year.
Another example comes to mind. I did one recently with Megamo, who until very recently hardly anyone heard of (certainly in the UK). Its now had 68,000 views in a couple of weeks, which has massively increased their exposure on this bike. My "work" for this included 2 days travelling to Spain, and 2 days filming in the UK, plus all the admin, setup, prep, and post-production and editing afterwards.
And again for context about sharing pro's and cons, here's what I said in that Megamo Video:
- Slim, full power build: Compact Avinox setup with 800 Wh fixed battery keeps the downtube narrow and the frame clean.
- Light for category: ~21.3 kg with 160/160 travel. Impressive for a full power eMTB.
- Strong motor: Avinox M1 up to 120 Nm / 1000 W. Power delivery is smooth, predictable, tuneable.
- On-bike controls: Touchscreen lets you tweak modes/parameters without the phone.
- Smart features: 12A fast charge (~1%/min), GPS + SIM theft tracking, gear-protect torque dip on shifts (production spec with wired mech).
- Suspension feel: Fox 36 (2026) very good, supple, supportive; rear end sensitive off the top, ramps ok; handles drops without harsh bottom out.
- Handling: Agile, lively, stable at speed; size specific chainstays; suits trail/AM/light enduro.
- Seatpost insertion: 240 mm OneUp fits (nearly slammed) thanks to straight, short 455 mm seat tube.
- Range flexibility: Fast charging makes mid day topups practical; reduces need for spare battery.
- Value floor: Range starts around £4,999 (alloy) with same geo + motor - strong entry point.
- Looks: Clean silhouette; alloy hydroform looks close to carbon.
Cons
- Stock tyres too light: EXO casings feel pingy; needed higher pressures recommend heavier casings.
- Twitchy steering stock: 35 mm stem feels too quick; prefer 50 mm to calm front.
- Headset cable routing: Looks tidy but adds maintenance faff; needs acros part to change stems.
- Non removable battery: Convenience relies on fast charge workarounds.
- Flip chip is mild: Minimal geo change; no true mullet preserving chip.
- Low bar rise: 20 mm feels too short on larger sizes.
- Size runs big: Large feels more like an XL on paper.
- Battery mass a tad high: Would like it mounted lower for CG.
- Paint: Red is loud (subjective).
- Avinox rattle history: Other bikes have some rattle; this unit was quiet, but flag potential over time.
And that’s basically how these things work. They get the reach, I get paid for the graft, and you get (hopefully) a solid, honest video with pro's and cons about the bike or product.
I always tell the brands I am not making advertorials, I try to share all the stuff I like and the thiings I think could be better. To date I have never had a brand not be OK with that.
I get that sponsored vids can feel weird so I try to be as open as possible about it, additionally, every video is disclosed in youtube via declaration, that shows a "contains paid promotion" tag that appears on the screen, as well as writing it in the video description. The goal is always to make something useful that people can learn whether its new bikes, tech or a debate of some form or enjoy watching otherwise there’s no point doing it.
Possibly. But all the other motors have ways of unlocking too with chips etc... people who want to unlock any motor will always find a way, no matter the brand. I think that the avinox bikes are popular because of all the other features, like the additional tech, lower weight 20-21KG bikes like the Unno or Amflow handle significantly different to 24-25kg bikes (like many Bosch bikes), much more slimline frames giving a much nicer overall aesthetic.
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Not sure what brought all that on, but for the record I’m not a ‘Lincolnite’ nor have I ever voted Reform….
It’s not a debate I’m having with myself, I just want an honest one, I have a lot more respect for those who say it’s the speed that works for them and many of the same say that if it gets locked down they’ll look elsewhere. .
If I’m on a 25kMh limited bike, and the Amflow is streaking away from me uphill, then either I’m crap (always a possibility!
) or the bike is capable of 15kMh more than mine…No probs. Happy to help clarify some stuff.
To help explain here's how I approach working with a brand in a "collaboration video" (lets call it a paid partnership), and putting a price to it is a combination of the following...
When I say “time and filming” I literally mean the whole process of making a video end to end. A proper piece takes days of work (yes even for a short 10-15 minute video!).... planning, researching, filming studio sections, shooting B roll shots.
In all the bike review videos, its shooting riding shots, hiring someone to shoot multiple days at a pro day rate, some travel days if abroad, usually 2 days sometimes 3, adding video graphics, editing, colour, audio, the lot. It’s a big chunk of time and it basically becomes my “job” for that week. I use kit worth £15k+ for it too, all of it is bundled into "time and filming"
Time also required is prior testing of a bike, like being in for delivery, setup, dealing with the return. All of the "admin" boring stuff. Then before filming a bike video, there's a good amount of riding before hand (sounds like fun, which it is, but its also a *job* riding and trying stuff out!)
Last time I added it up, its around 100 hours of human work / effort to make a bike video like this
For the above linked video about the Power Debate.... Why would a manufacturer support that? Because my channel has one of the biggest reaches in the eMTB space, so there is value for them in simply being associated with a topic people care about. And Avinox is also more than the power alone and I thought that was worth talking to.
I pitched the idea to Avinox, they didnt come up with the idea or the content. The idea for this one came from the article I wrote on this site Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB? as I thought it was an interesting hot topic about emtb's this year.
Another example comes to mind. I did one recently with Megamo, who until very recently hardly anyone heard of (certainly in the UK). Its now had 68,000 views in a couple of weeks, which has massively increased their exposure on this bike. My "work" for this included 2 days travelling to Spain, and 2 days filming in the UK, plus all the admin, setup, prep, and post-production and editing afterwards.
And that’s basically how these things work. They get the reach, I get paid for the graft, and you get (hopefully) a solid, honest video with pro's and cons about the bike or product.
I always tell the brands I am not making advertorials, I try to share all the stuff I like and the thiings I think could be better. To date I have never had a brand not be OK with that.
I get that sponsored vids can feel weird so I try to be as open as possible about it, additionally, every video is disclosed in youtube via declaration, that shows a "contains paid promotion" tag that appears on the screen, as well as writing it in the video description. The goal is always to make something useful that people can learn whether its new bikes, tech or a debate of some form or enjoy watching otherwise there’s no point doing it.
Possibly. But all the other motors have ways of unlocking too with chips etc... people who want to unlock any motor will always find a way, no matter the brand. I think that the avinox bikes are popular because of all the other features, like the additional tech, lower weight 1KG bikes like the Unno or Amflow handle significantly different to 24-25kg bikes (like many Bosch bikes), much more slimline frames giving a much nicer overall aesthetic.
Again, thanks for the reply Rob, I know you’re a busy guy!
I do appreciate what you bring to the EMTB space, I’m ordering a Nicolai S16 off the back of your review (always had a soft spot for Nicolai though!) and understand how it’s sometimes difficult to balance output.
Just to say, I’m not ‘anti-Avinox’, far from it, and actually like what they’ve brought to the table with regard to software features and the footprint of motors and batteries. Like most things though, they’ve also brought some ‘dis-benefits’ which some people seem to be very touchy about raising!
Keep doing what you do Rob, again, it is appreciated!
Great stuff, one of the best performing rear suspension bikes ever.
I'm actually going to Nicolai on Monday to visit their HQ (me and Will are filming a video on how a bike is made and HQ tour!). And also I bought a S18 frameset that I am collecting from them.
Awesome! Enjoy, and look forward to the videos and seeing your frame, great colour choice too!
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