Rockshox Monarch RT setup questions

[khorn]

Hello

I have had my Turbo Levo Comp carbon almost 2 weeks now and ridden a bit over 100 km rough single trails and still struggeling to setup my Monarch shock. I'm a quite heavy 6'3" 105 kg guy all geared up and so far, in order to get sag around 30%, I'm running 240 Psi in the shock. This gives a very harsh ride where the shock is very unresponcive over smaller bumps and I only use 50% of travel. If running sag around 40%, things gets a lot better but then I'm getting pedal strikes all the time - Any good advice?

I was wondering if there is installed one or more air tokens(bands) in the shock from new? - It feels like it is way too progressive and that could be the reason.

Front fork was easy and is spot on now but it feels like I'm riding a semi hard tail at the moment

Here is a couple of pics of the imbalance in suspention travel after a today's ride, both spot on 30% sag:

Thanks

Karsten

 

[Brooky]

I have the same issue Karsten, I’m hoping it’s a coil spring shock on the 2019’s.What psi do you put in your forks pal?
Cheers
Rob

 

[Gary]

Yeah. From the O-ring position it does looks like either the shock is running too many bands (Can't hurt to open the air can and see what's in there).or you're measuring sag with your weight too far rearwards. Or... [Captain obvious]You do have the blue compression lever set to full open?[/captain obvious]
Also, when you aired up the shock did you remember to cycle it through the travel at various intervals to balance the pos/neg chamber pressures?



30% rear sag is just a suggested starting point BTW rather than the absolute. for instance I run 23-25% sag on my 170mm Enduro bike and 27% on my 170mm Emtb (due to differences in progressivity). 35-40% sag on my coil shock equipped 200mm DH bikes.
and 40psi difference between the pressure I run on my slopestyle bike depending on whether I'm using it for general razzing or pure jumping. (I don't even note Sag when setting up this bike, it's set up by feel, ie. pop/support vs compliance).

 

[khorn]

I have the same issue Karsten, I’m hoping it’s a coil spring shock on the 2019’s.What psi do you put in your forks pal?
Cheers
Rob

I'm running around 90 Psi in the fork and is is perfect, my fork is the upgraded version with "DebonAir" air shaft.

Regarding the issue with the rear shock then after a bit more study, it seems like we both need a bigger air chamber and it is as a matter of fact available in a "DebonAir" version as well. Why on earth they did not sell the bike with an more flexible shock is over my head. If your body weight is 90 kg fully geared up, the shock is absolutely useless and you might as well save the money and buy a HT

Right now I'm desperately trying to find the parts number for that "DebonAir" upgrade but no luck so far, the Levo version of the Monarch Rt is not in the Rockshox sp catalog so any help with that would be much appreciated.

Karsten

 

[khorn]

Yeah. From the O-ring position it does looks like either the shock is running too many bands (Can't hurt to open the air can and see what's in there).or you're measuring sag with your weight too far rearwards. Or... [Captain obvious]You do have the blue compression lever set to full open?[/captain obvious]
Also, when you aired up the shock did you remember to cycle it through the travel at various intervals to balance the pos/neg chamber pressures?



30% rear sag is just a suggested starting point BTW rather than the absolute. for instance I run 23-25% sag on my 170mm Enduro bike and 27% on my 170mm Emtb (due to differences in progressivity). 35-40% sag on my coil shock equipped 200mm DH bikes.
and 40psi difference between the pressure I run on my slopestyle bike depending on whether I'm using it for general razzing or pure jumping. (I don't even note Sag when setting up this bike, it's set up by feel, ie. pop/support vs compliance).

Thanks for the tips Gary and yes, I did follow the standard procedure cycling the the travel prior to setting sag(BTW when using Auto- sag I end up with closer to 40%). Also, I do have the compression in open

I'm fully aware sag is individual depending on your riding terrain and how aggressive you ride and I do not do crazy big jumps but riding in a very rough terrain with lots of big roots etc. As it is right now with 30% my rear end is jumping all over as it is very unresponsive to all the smaller bumps and I have the feeling I'm riding a HT. Furthermore it slides around quite a bit when the roots are wet as they were today, not a confident feeling at all. If I set it to 40% sag things getting better but then getting so many pedal strikes that it is useless.

Honestly I think the the Monarch Rt do belong in the bin and I'm right now debating with myself if I'm in the market for an upgrade or if I should upgrade the air chamber. According to Rockshox there is no bands installed from new

Karsten

 

[Slowroller]

A bigger air can is better, especially for bigger riders. I also agree that you should pull any bands if they are in there to give you a less progressive curve. I only use sag % as a starting point, then I run as much as possible until it either affects the handling, the bike starts to wallow, or pedal strikes like you've got. Back your rebound damping settings to zero, then get your sag right. Only add back enough rebound to keep the back end from bucking when you get air.

I've often found that once I've made positive changes to my fork, it makes the back end worse, or at least feel a lot worse.

 

[Jonowinter]

I am 93kg without riding kit. I run my sock at 240psi and one click off the slowest rebound setting, any quicker setting and the back feels very bouncy. This gives roughly 28% sag, I don’t bother with the auto sag function. I find the bike does sit into its travel more than I would like and bottoms out too easily, from my research (and the shop where I bought the bike) the shock does not accept volume spacers so these are the best setting I have personally found. I am going to stick with the shock for now, even though I can’t tune it to how I would want. Having just spent £4K on a bike it’s annoying to not getting it feeling like I would like. Interested to see what the 2019 Levo has fitted. From what you have said it doesn’t sound right, 240psi and only allowing half travel, I am lighter than you and with the same pressure mine bottoms out too easily I think. Not sure what could be wrong but that doesn’t sound right to me. Might be worth talking to the shop where you got it?

 

[Gary]

Yeah, thought you'd probably understand sag, how to air the shock up and how the compression adjuster works. Just covering all bases really.

I have 2 Monarchs. One is a Monarch RT3 on my slope bike, the other a Monarch plus RT3 (piggyback) on my Enduro bike. Both quite burly/progressive bikes. (going higher than 30% sag on either would have me bottoming hard and losing midstroke support). The Enduro bike is a YT Capra which is one of the most progressive Enduro frames ever produced
They're both good shocks and work well on each bike. Not quite as good as the newer Super Deluxe on my Ebike but I'm very happy with both.

I haven't ever ridden a Levo or looked at the leverage curve before now (see below) so have no idea why the Monarch wouldn't be suitable. Sorry. Hope you figure it out.

This is the leverage curve from the 2016 Levo (no idea if it's changed) but as you can see it's progressive - regressive but nothing out of the ordinary and running a standard Monarch shouldn't cause it to become too progressive IMO.
What tune is on your monarch? (the two coloured boxed with a letter printed inside each one). although I wouldn't have thought specialized would get something like this wrong.
Here's a chart that shows what Monarch suits which particular LR and LC best

 

[ccrdave]

I really struggled with that shock on my 2018 levo, even got Jake at sprung suspension to put another shim stack in still no good im a heavy rider 107kg all up, binned it and fitted a fox van coil, bliss

 

[khorn]

#Jonowiter
that does indeed sounds very strange, It could be that something is wrong with your shock, especially the fact that your hydraulics is not working. Btw you can put bands = tokens into the shock so your LBS should try a little harder!

#Gary
Thanks for the info, brilliant! My shock is what they call a mid tune = B - I have a feeling that the shock is way too progressive, especially when you get too close to max air pressure. I will either ditch the shock or go with a bigger air chamber if I can figure out the part number.

#Dave
It might end up that I follow your route. Specialized announced max rider weight to 120kg for my bike, nobody told me that it would be a HT if my weight is over 100kg....

Karsten

 

[Gary]

MOAR SHIMZ because of lack of midstroke support and blowing through the travel @ccrdave ? sounds like you had the opposite problem from @khorn

I demo'd a Transition Scout when they were new as everyone told me I'd love it and it was a super playful bike. It really didn't suit me at all, it had a Monarch that simply couldn't give me enough midstroke no matter how hard I ran it. Afterwards I told the shop this and they said there was nothing wrong with it. RS quality control issues maybe? I dunno. Not sure if I trust the shop either. Demo bikes are often still punted out for rides with knackered suspension.

 

[ccrdave]

My problem the same i think to get 30% sag and then stop it just blowing through its stroke i had so much pressure it ended up being much to hard as Karsten says almost like a hsrdtail, i tried volume spacers with very little effect

 

[khorn]

I did spend a good amount of time today trying to figure out what shock I actually have and how to identify what high volume air can would fit my Monarch RT. Unfortunately it turns out that it was no success at all, the Levo Comp shock is not sold as an individual part and therefore not a big market for listing tuning parts for it. Apparently the shock mounted to my Levo is in a version 197x47 which cannot be found in any Rockshox official parts catalogue - Here is a link to the official parts catalogue and if anyone knows what part number I need it will be highly appreciated:

https://www.sram.com/sites/default/files/techdocs/2017_rockshox_spc_rev_b.pdf

@Al Boneta It would be extremely appreciated if you, with your knowledge/position, maybe could look up the correct part number for either the High volume Air chamber or the "Debon Air" upgrade if that is avaiable for my shock. The serial number of the shock is "14T81466465" if that helps. Also I would be more than happy to buy from you as well as I would love to buy one of your new t-shirts

As a matter of fact I cannot find any spare parts at all for my particular shock on any of the big sites like CRC, Bike24 etc. I also tried to call my local Specialized shop and they said that they could not help me with the bigger air can as they was not even aware that it existed(They had never heard about "Debon Air" before....).

Another thing I found out today is the fact that Rockshox only rate the Monarch RT for Cross Country and trail riding and it is NOT recommended for Enduro nor Gravity - On the other hand the Revelation fork is rated for Trail- as well as Enduro riding. So basically the Turbo Levo is configured suspension vice as a trail bike based on Rockshox own recommendation.

Bottom line I need to have my issue fixed and as it seems that I will have no success finding a bigger air can, a new shock it must be eventually- Any recommendations for a good quality rear shock(NOT Rockshox) that will fit my bike in 197x47 and in a tune that will be able to support a 105 kg rider fully kitted on a 23 kg MTB?

Kind regards from Denmark

Karsten

 

[Gary]

I wouldn't read too much into Rockshox categorisation of the shocks/forks. It's just a guide.
I'm 200lb and use a Reba on my dirt jump bike. RS categorise it as an XC/Trail fork.

Speak to someone at www.TFtuned.com about your requirements and the possibility of having them shorten a shock to the custom length you require. Phone them rather than Email.
I know back when Tim was there full time he'd custom shorten shocks if you needed something mo longer available or difficult to source. As would Mojo with Fox shocks (but Mojo are no more).
TF can also custom shim your damping.

 

[ccrdave]

Tf are good guys they built my fox van coil to suit my levo and i think now they can build one with the specialized bottom mount but bear in mind depending on what shock you choose you may also have to buy a bike yoke which adds about 90 euros

 

[khorn]

Thanks Dave and Gary!

It seems like I'm in for a phone call tomorrow. I'm already hot on that Cane Creek coil setup
DBcoil IL

Just out of curiosity, are there any kits out there providing a little bit more rear travel for the Levo when I'm at it anyway?
Karsten

 

[Gary]

I've no idea if anyone sells a linkage to increase travel or yoke etc. to allow a longer stroke shock to be fitted to the Levo.
Increasing shock stroke would increase overall travel but generally speaking increasing shock stroke would also increase the overall shock length having a detrimental effect on geometry (raising the BB height and steepen the head and seat angles). The angles can be slackened back by also running a longer fork or angle headset but the higher BB height would remain.
Personally I'd go for quality over quantity.
Have a search on here, or start a thread to ask. I think there are a few Levos running coils, no idea if they increased travel too.

 

[Slowroller]

This is the only aftermarket air shock I'd recommend, they are very tunable and you can rebuild them yourself. They do carry them in your size too.

Topaz T3 Air Shock | DVO Suspension

Coil is always better if you don't care about weight. I'll always choose performance over weight anyday.

 

[Witte300]

I couldn’t be happier with my swap to the cane creek dB il shock.

 

[khorn]

#Gary
Apparently TF have done a few modifications(up to +30mm travel) to Levo's in order to extend the rear travel utilizing the exact same coil shock that I'm looking at(Cane Creek DB Inline). I don't mind a little higher BB and this could also be an good excuse to either get a 170 mm Lyrik or modify the Revelation to 160 mm. Time to build a KeLevo

#Slowroller
Thanks for the heads up but I think that I'm done with air shocks for now. Based on my Google search it seems like there are a general consensus that if you are a heavy rider above 105 kg, the nature of the air shock will be too progressive or having a huge air can in order to provide less progressiveness during mid-stroke.

#Witte300
That is the exact same shock I'm in love with!

Karsten

 

[khorn]

For the aftermath of my original question regarding how to identify the Specialized specific version of the 48x197 Rockshox Monach RT shock in order to buy spareparts/upgrades like for example a new Debon Air air-can, the Specialized specific 2018 fit all spareparts with the 2016 to 2018 generic Rockshox Monarch RT 190/200x51 mm version. This I have directly from SRAM.

It is not of any use for me now as I have already reached out to TFtuned regarding a coil conversion together with extending rear travel to 160 mm.

Karsten

 

[khorn]

I had a very good conversation with Paul from TFTuned today and his recommendation is a PUSH tuned 2018 Fox Van RC 190x51 with a Bike yoke. Even its a bit old design he states that it is still a very good coil shock. By him it should be smooth as silk over small bumps and give a good progressive ramp up towards max travel.

Regarding my Monarch RT, I checked it today and even it is stamped as 48 mm of stroke, there is no way I can get more than 46 mm out of it. I also checked my actual rear travel and it comes in at 129 mm - 6 mm less than rated by Specialized.

How many out there have actually measured their travel to see if it is as listed?

Karsten

 

[ccrdave]

I have the same shock you will love it
Have you calculated what travel you will get with the 51mm stroke?

 

[khorn]

Based on the ramp diagram that Gary posted earlier here I’m getting 5 mm more stroke witch equals almost 15 mm more travel. Eventually I will end up around 145 mm.

Karsten

 

[ccrdave]

Spesh say the suspension ratio is 3.1 so 46 x 3= 138mm give or take hence 135mm as stated.
If this is correct then 51mm x 3 should give 153mm travel rounded down to 150mm for error sounds ok to me, what do you think?

 

[Gary]

You've checked there's definitely adequate clearance between moving parts and main frame for the extra 5mm shock compression?
In the past tyre buzz (tyre hitting frame) at full compression used to be a problem when using longer stroke (but sae eye to eye) shocks to increase travel but now that balloon tyre clearance is something people want I doubt the problem is ever present these days.

 

[ccrdave]

I checked Gary theres loads of room and i have tried with 27.5 x 2.8 and 29 x 2.5

 

[khorn]

Spesh say the suspension ratio is 3.1 so 46 x 3= 138mm give or take hence 135mm as stated.
If this is correct then 51mm x 3 should give 153mm travel rounded down to 150mm for error sounds ok to me, what do you think?

I don't think that your calculation is absolutely correct @ccrdave, at least not compared to my Turbo Levo. On my Monarch RT shock there is stamped a stroke of 48 mm, with a listed travel of 135 mm that give will an average ratio of 2.81. My actual measurements did give me around 130 mm travel and 46 mm actual stroke, again an average ratio around 2.83. That number you cannot use for an accurate calculation as it is not a fixed number. If you look at Gary's post #8 in this thread, you will see what I mean when you look at the leverage ratio chart. By doing so and extrapolating a bit, you will get a leverage ratio at end of travel around 2.85 giving you (51-48)x2.85 more travel.

That number is theoretical as you can see based on my actual measurements. When I get the Fox Van RC I will measure actual stroke and if it is indeed 51 mm, I will get (51-46)x2.85= 14.3 mm more travel on top of my already measured 130 mm = 144 mm.

@Gary

As Dave are saying; there are loads of space and in theory I think you could go 160+ mm.

Karsten

 

[Gary]

@Gary

As Dave are saying; there are loads of space and in theory I think you could go 160+ mm.

Karsten

A further bonus from doing this with the same eye to eye length would be the bike will sit slightly lower and slacker at sag point too.

sounds like a winner to me.

 

[Eckythump]

Not sure if you are done with this and are sending your shock off but one last suggestion....

Put a volume reducing band in the negative side chamber. The negative chamber is there to help the shock to ‘break away’ and start moving. This is great for light riders but not so good for heavy. The band should add the midstroke support you seem to be after.