New Bosch Torque Update V Amflow

[bmwpowere36m3]

IF both bikes are limited to 25km/h

Strongest rider will win if HE/SHE can accelerate faster up to speed limit.
Then it's a matter of maitaing rider power at speed limit, or past it (which I doubt you can...).

If both ebikes are unrestricted, then Avinox will take the win, with the 1.000W power [1300W M2 or 1500W M2S+700Wh battery].

Does Avinox have the overun?

Only up to a certain point... once you get to a reasonable climb gradient, folks aren't climbing above 20 mph (US speed assist limit). Even 15 mph (UK limit) would be pushing it for most folks. The gradient would need to be low and trail surface would need to be very smooth. Also a long enough climb when you can't ZONE 5 your HR for less than a minute.

The bigger motor is going to win 99% of the time.

 

[Johneracer]

Watt vs torque is so confusing to people. Let’s me try to clarify. I’m an adult who can easily lift a 50 lb box. My son is 11 and can barely do the same. We both lift 50lbs (torque). I will never go heavier my than 50lbs, doctor orders. We now need to unload a truck. It has 20 boxes each 50lbs. Who will be quicker? I will be obviously since I have more power (watts). We may start equally each lifting one box but as we progress he will trail behind quickly. This is why simply increasing torque without watts is meaningless. What Bosch is purely marketing strategy so that clueless people will say “oh it’s got more power now” racing a 1000w or 1500w avionox bike with 750w Bosch bike is like me and my son competing in unloading the truck since we both can lift 50lbs.

 

[Michaelp66]

Sounds like how far an unladen swallow can carry a coconut. Ebikes can be techy I guess

African or European?

 

[Paul F]

At the beginning there wouldn’t be any meaningful difference, probably also not when doing small technical climbs, but as you get faster the additional power will make a difference.

But again what are we talking about? Even a little basic sur ron would leave all those bikes for dead. The more powerful sur ron (and we’re still talking about an electric dirt bike, nothing fast) is in a different universe

Yup. Sur run is more powerful but illegal on all off road trails on the UK. So the point is irrelevant.

 

[Mtbkski]

With the new 120nm Bosch update coming, it looks like the motor will remain at 750w.
If a 120/ 750 Bosch and a 120/ 1000+ Amflow both set off at the bottom of a steep hill and started climbing as fast as possible, how would the smaller wattage manifest itself.
Where would it lose ground?

This may help you out. He talks about and compares motors on the trails and how they differ.

 

[Mario Antony]

Only up to a certain point... once you get to a reasonable climb gradient, folks aren't climbing above 20 mph (US speed assist limit). Even 15 mph (UK limit) would be pushing it for most folks. The gradient would need to be low and trail surface would need to be very smooth. Also a long enough climb when you can't ZONE 5 your HR for less than a minute.

The bigger motor is going to win 99% of the time.

Yes, that's true.

Some people will climb bellow max speed on an ebike, but I'm talking about FIT people, or athletes.

When I was lighter (around 78kg) and trained almost all week, it was easy to climb at pace. Even then, lighter riders, around the 65kg, would pass me like I dropped an anchor!
These type of riders with a ebike, will FOR SURE maintain the ebike at Max speed, even at +15% incline.
My last Grandfond, was almost 3.000m elevation, and the lighter riders would zip over me on steep climps, like I was stopped! Really, really hard, to say the least!

BUT...

If uphill KOMs IS a thing, better use a converted bike, with 60V or 72V system, and you'll almost be as fast as a moto!
if you don'tdget hurt on the process....

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Yes, that's true.

Some people will climb bellow max speed on an ebike, but I'm talking about FIT people, or athletes.

When I was lighter (around 78kg) and trained almost all week, it was easy to climb at pace. Even then, lighter riders, around the 65kg, would pass me like I dropped an anchor!
These type of riders with a ebike, will FOR SURE maintain the ebike at Max speed, even at +15% incline.
My last Grandfond, was almost 3.000m elevation, and the lighter riders would zip over me on steep climps, like I was stopped! Really, really hard, to say the least!

BUT...

If uphill KOMs IS a thing, better use a converted bike, with 60V or 72V system, and you'll almost be as fast as a moto!
if you don'tdget hurt on the process....

Some people... brother your delusional. Lets forget professional athletes. Most people (including very fit ones) are not going to climb around the max assist speed on anything greater than a 10% climb longer than a couple minutes, period.

Example, local enduro spot has 9% sustained climb for 1 mile... I would average 5-6 mph on my analog enduro bike (170 mm with sticky DH tires) and 12-14 mph on an eMTB. On the slower end with a EP801 in trail mode and faster with gen 5 CX in eMTB. Either way on the eMTB I'm putting in a lot of effort to get that speed. Is not the grind of the analog, but it feel close to same exertion for less time. I'm also in the top 10% of climbers for that particular section, so no slouch.

You need to put in quite the work to get the power on legacy motor like the Shimano and Bosch. I'd say the average eMTB rider is not putting "analog" level of work. They use the eMTB to make life easier and ride maybe a touch faster.

Now with 1500W M2S, I could see getting closer to the 20 mph limit for longer runs... however it would still require a LOT of effort on riders part.

 

[Astro66]

With the new 120nm Bosch update coming, it looks like the motor will remain at 750w.
If a 120/ 750 Bosch and a 120/ 1000+ Amflow both set off at the bottom of a steep hill and started climbing as fast as possible, how would the smaller wattage manifest itself.
Where would it lose ground?

It's simple physics. You can climb quicker with more power. Let's do some maths.

Power (W) = Total Mass (kg) × 9.8 x Elevation Gain (m) / Time (s) : therefore transposing.
Elevation Gain (m) / Time (s) = Power (W) / (Total Mass (kg) X 9.8)

If you look at [Elevation Gain (m) / Time (s)] as Speed of Climbing. (m/s) and you look at your weight as constant.

If you double the [Power (W)]. Then you double the Speed of Climbing (m/s)

Torque will help you maintain your momentum. But it won't help you climb quicker.

So lets look at a practical example.

Bike and Rider Bosch = 100kg.
Power Bosch = 750 watts
Climbing Speed = 750/(100 x 9.8) = 0.75 m/s of speed

Bike and Rider Amflow PX Pro = 100kg.
Power Avinox = 1500 watts
Climbing Speed = 1500/(100 x 9.8) = 1.5 m/s of speed

Thus the Avinox Motor System will be twice as fast climbing than the Bosch System.

These are facts. It's irrelevant of dick measurements. But it's funny. Only those with the smaller dicks seem to get all uppity about dick measurement competitions ....... #justsayn.

 

[Winford]

Some people... brother your delusional. Lets forget professional athletes. Most people (including very fit ones) are not going to climb around the max assist speed on anything greater than a 10% climb longer than a couple minutes, period.

Id love to argue this with you but your right. I think your math is correct, I did a sprint yesterday on a much less than that grade, 1.5 miles and was on the 28mph limiter about a 1/4 of the time 105nm 1000w. On a gravel bike im a 60-80 mile rider each ride doing 15mph for 30-60 miles. Not the strongest rider, but endurance is there.

 

[Mlok]

Bike and Rider Bosch = 100kg.
Power Bosch = 750 watts
Climbing Speed = 750/(100 x 9.8) = 0.75 m/s of speed

Bike and Rider Amflow PX Pro = 100kg.
Power Avinox = 1500 watts
Climbing Speed = 1500/(100 x 9.8) = 1.5 m/s of speed

Thus the Avinox Motor System will be twice as fast climbing than the Bosch System.

No, it won't.

Measurement: E-Bike Motor Power Test - Who is the strongest? | E-Bike Lab and E-Bike Lab - Unabhängige Prüfstandsdaten
Power Bosch: Max power 685W and it needs 220W rider power -> 905W
Power Avinox: Max power 1137W (No one will use the boost permanently) and for good comparison same rider power 220W -> 1357W
1357/905=1,5 -> Avinox will be only 1,5x faster and only with condition "It needs cadence 100rpm+". With lower cadence difference will be even smaller.

 

[Astro66]

No, it won't.

Measurement: E-Bike Motor Power Test - Who is the strongest? | E-Bike Lab and E-Bike Lab - Unabhängige Prüfstandsdaten
Power Bosch: Max power 685W and it needs 220W rider power -> 905W
Power Avinox: Max power 1137W (No one will use the boost permanently) and for good comparison same rider power 220W -> 1357W
1357/905=1,5 -> Avinox will be only 1,5x faster and only with condition "It needs cadence 100rpm+". With lower cadence difference will be even smaller.

How about we keep it simple, so people can understand. The M2S motor consistently produces nearly twice the power of the Bosch CX5, regardless of the rider input. And power is directly proportional to climbing speed.

At 100 watts rider input. Even factoring in rider input, the output of the Avinox and rider is nearly twice the Bosch and rider. Same thing occurring at 150 watts rider input.

 

[Mlok]

How about we keep it simple, so people can understand.

Its imposible ride without rider power. Without rider power its nonsence. My example is real situation. With Avinox, you'll never be twice as fast.

 

[Astro66]

Its imposible ride without rider power. Without rider power its nonsence. My example is real situation. With Avinox, you'll never be twice as fast.

What about at 50 watts of rider input ?

Bosch + Rider = 240 watts
Avinox + Rider = 510 watts.

In this case it's more than twice as powerful. Hence the simplification so we aren't arguing semantics all day.

 

[Mlok]

I have Avinox M1 and Brose S-mag. M1 has nearly twice the power of the Brose, so the same situation.

And in reality on specific steep uphill:
23-25% (it is not constant): With Brose 8-9km/h, with M1 12-14km/h. There's no way I could be twice as fast on M1.
Brose: 250W + 550W -> 800W
M1: 250W + 950W -> 1200W
1200/800 = 1,5 -> Power motor + rider is 1,5x higher with M1.

 

[Mlok]

What about at 50 watts of rider input ?

Bosch + Rider = 240 watts
Avinox + Rider = 510 watts.

In this case it's more than twice as powerful. Hence the simplification so we aren't arguing semantics all day.

Now you are comparing motor multipliers, not motor powers. And yes, Avinox has bigger multiplier (but Bosch will probably have bigger multiplier after next update). But the discussion was about approaching the speed limit (25km/h EU or 32km/h US). You need max motor power for that.

In my previous post I wrote comparison from real uphill and speeds. And even with my 72kg that is imposible to hit speed limit (even lower EU limit) on very steep uphill (even with M2S).

 

[Astro66]

Now you are comparing motor multipliers, not motor powers.

No I'm not. It's motor output + rider output.

At rider inputs of 50 watts, 100 watts and 150 watts, the ratio of total power being outputted is about 2 to 1. And an average rider will consistently output about 150 watts.

Power is power. And elevation is elevation. The physics doesn't change in a straight up climbing challenge. If we cannot agree on Gravity and Physics. Then this is a pointless discussion.

 

[Mlok]

You are comparing multipliers (For low rider input power, all of this is limited by a motor multiplier). Avinox on max setting has unreasonably large multiplier (I don't use 800% Avinox multiplier). If you dont use that large multiplier than Avinox will have much lower power with riders 50W.
And after update Bosch will have 600% multiplier and with riders 50W will have 300W (now not even 200W).

 

[Mlok]

And back to situation on speed limit 25km/h.

With M1 and 72kg I am able to reach speed limit on gradient about 15%. With M2S it will be only a bit higher, about 18% (M1: 250W + 950W -> 1200W, M2S: 250W + 1150W -> 1400W).

 

[Astro66]

Avinox on max setting has unreasonably large multiplier (I don't use 800% Avinox multiplier).

I'm comparing the data you sourced. Whether you want to use it or not, is irrelevant. And I quote :

"Power Characteristics:​

Shows how much power the motor delivers for a given rider input. The value shown is pure motor power, adjusted for input and drivetrain losses."

So I am taking the motor power and adding it to the rider power, for a bike total power output. And up to where the curve flattens, the ratio is roughly 2 to 1.

Obviously, if you put an Olympic Cyclist on the bikes, who can output 400-500 watts consistently. Then the output of the bike becomes less significant. And the ratio becomes smaller. Hence why I wanted to keep it simple and not factor in the rider. But even so. The ratio is about 2 to 1 with an average rider input.

 

[Astro66]

And back to situation on speed limit 25km/h.

The OP mentions nothing about speed limits or future multipliers. Only power and torque. Why are you bringing this up ?

 

[Mlok]

In reality its motor + rider with reasonable rider power input. And for real situation (we are discussing regarding usage due to speed limit 25km/h) you need 200W+ rider power for max motor power (for both motors). That's why you can't ignore those 200W+.
400-500W is unreasonable high power and I didn't expect anything like that.

 

[Mlok]

Disc

The OP mentions nothing about speed limits or future multipliers. Only power and torque. Why are you bringing this up ?

Discussion on speed limit started on first post on second page (and last posts on first page) this thread. And I didn't come up with that, I was just picking up where the previous discussion left off.

 

[Astro66]

(we are discussing regarding usage due to speed limit 25km/h)

That is not what the OP asked. If both bikes are climbing a gradient where the limiter cannot be achieved. The limiter would have no impact, and the Avinox Motor would climb almost twice as fast at rider inputs up to 150-180 watts.

Most riders don't ride uphill on the limiter.

 

[Mlok]

and the Avinox Motor would climb almost twice as fast at rider inputs up to 150-180 watts.

But only due to high multiplier on Avinox. And as soon as Bosch receives the next update with 600% multiplier than it will be much less difference even for lower rider inputs.

 

[Mario Antony]

Some people... brother your delusional. Lets forget professional athletes. Most people (including very fit ones) are not going to climb around the max assist speed on anything greater than a 10% climb longer than a couple minutes, period.

Example, local enduro spot has 9% sustained climb for 1 mile... I would average 5-6 mph on my analog enduro bike (170 mm with sticky DH tires) and 12-14 mph on an eMTB. On the slower end with a EP801 in trail mode and faster with gen 5 CX in eMTB. Either way on the eMTB I'm putting in a lot of effort to get that speed. Is not the grind of the analog, but it feel close to same exertion for less time. I'm also in the top 10% of climbers for that particular section, so no slouch.

You need to put in quite the work to get the power on legacy motor like the Shimano and Bosch. I'd say the average eMTB rider is not putting "analog" level of work. They use the eMTB to make life easier and ride maybe a touch faster.

Now with 1500W M2S, I could see getting closer to the 20 mph limit for longer runs... however it would still require a LOT of effort on riders part.

Just because your reality do not have examples of what others refer, doesn't mean you are right and everyone is wrong.

An image is better than a million words.

Advice:
eMTB or even eMTB+ (or any adaptable mode such as Tour+, Eco+) is not the best to obtain good times uphill ---> if you're into that.
Better put in TURBO, with everything max out.

PS: I also thought I was doing the same force on the ebike, for less time, until I rode a bike up a mountain, and thought: "what is this???"
Ebikes are good for training, and put people in exercising.
But nothing will replace a Bike.
Also, I think I lost some power since I started ridding more and more the ebike

 

[Astro66]

But only due to high multiplier on Avinox. And as soon as Bosch receives the next update with 600% multiplier than it will be much less difference even for lower rider inputs.

There was no mention of multiplier upgrades by the OP. There is no data to support this claim. Any multiplier upgrade is rumour only.

Everything I have posted is based on verifiable fact. When there is data to show the equation has changed, I'll state the new climbing speed ratio, between Avinox and Bosch. Currently between 50-200 watts of rider input. It ranges from 2 to 1, up to about 150 watts of rider input, to 1.5 to 1, as you approach 200 watts of rider input.

The fact remains that at maximum output, the Bosch only produces 685 watts, whilst the Avinox produces 1140 watts. With climbing speed directly proportional to power. It's important to make this point to the OP, and not diminish the impact it will have.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Just because your reality do not have examples of what others refer, doesn't mean you are right and everyone is wrong.

An image is better than a million words.


Advice:
eMTB or even eMTB+ (or any adaptable mode such as Tour+, Eco+) is not the best to obtain good times uphill ---> if you're into that.
Better put in TURBO, with everything max out.

PS: I also thought I was doing the same force on the ebike, for less time, until I rode a bike up a mountain, and thought: "what is this???"
Ebikes are good for training, and put people in exercising.
But nothing will replace a Bike.
Also, I think I lost some power since I started ridding more and more the ebike

I'm not racing uphill, at least on very long sustained climbs. I push sometimes, but I know I'm also not the fastest. Turbo is just going to blow through battery quickly and I'm more interested in maximizing descents on longer rides which require a lot of climbing.

I agree the level of cardio exertion isn't quite the same between ebikes and analog. From a peak cardio (high HR), explosive power and just suffer-fest the ebike eliminates these. I feel the effects when I switch back and forth between eMTB and analog bikes... especially when a lot of time has gone by between the two.

Now as far as a 1 minute segment... argue it anyway you want. I said prior, not a short segment less than 2 minutes when you can blow up your heart rate. Short efforts, sure you can push it. Show me an effort at least 5 minutes your pushing 30 KPH uphill (>10%) climb.

Here's a shorter segment, in EP801 in Turbo, 49 seconds is my time:

Here's a proper climb, CX in eMTB, 5:51 is my time:

Here's another good climb, CX in eMTB, 3:38 is my time:

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

How about we keep it simple, so people can understand. The M2S motor consistently produces nearly twice the power of the Bosch CX5, regardless of the rider input. And power is directly proportional to climbing speed.

At 100 watts rider input. Even factoring in rider input, the output of the Avinox and rider is nearly twice the Bosch and rider. Same thing occurring at 150 watts rider input.

You can't discount the amount of power the rider needs to input to achieve the maximum power available from each motor as they contribute to total power.

On a Bosch CX with 400% assist (in eMTB+ w/ latest update of 100Nm & 750W), a rider needs to input 188 watts to achieve the 750W rated peak. That's a total of 938 W output. Same rider on an Avinox M2S with 800% would input the same 188 watts to achieve 1500W rated peak. That's a total of 1688 W output.

So the power ratio is 1.8... close enough to the "nearly twice" you stated

There's nuances in cadence required and other real-world factors... ultimately a M1, M2 or M2S are going to be faster than a Bosch CX gen 5. We can argue 1.5, 1.8, 2.0 based on "lab" or theoretical data.

 

[Mario Antony]

I'm not racing uphill, at least on very long sustained climbs. I push sometimes, but I know I'm also not the fastest. Turbo is just going to blow through battery quickly and I'm more interested in maximizing descents on longer rides which require a lot of climbing.

I agree the level of cardio exertion isn't quite the same between ebikes and analog. From a peak cardio (high HR), explosive power and just suffer-fest the ebike eliminates these. I feel the effects when I switch back and forth between eMTB and analog bikes... especially when a lot of time has gone by between the two.

Now as far as a 1 minute segment... argue it anyway you want. I said prior, not a short segment less than 2 minutes when you can blow up your heart rate. Short efforts, sure you can push it. Show me an effort at least 5 minutes your pushing 30 KPH uphill (>10%) climb.

Here's a shorter segment, in EP801 in Turbo, 49 seconds is my time:
View attachment 183435
View attachment 183436

Here's a proper climb, CX in eMTB, 5:51 is my time:

View attachment 183437
View attachment 183438

Here's another good climb, CX in eMTB, 3:38 is my time:

View attachment 183439
View attachment 183440

I just wanted to show that some riders are able to climb well above EU speed limit, and if I have patience later today, I'll check longer segments.
Nevertheless, is 1min, at an avg of +30km/h, I suppose even on an Avinox, it will be hard and not for all.

BTW - I'm not into CLIMB.
Never been...never will!

HillClimbing is for light riders. Anyone above 70ish kg.... or is very special, or can forget to race uphill.
I like... but that doesn't mean I'm any good

 

[Bomble]

Who would have thought such a seemingly simple question would create such debate