More power, more torque?

[Darren66]

This, I'm sure will be controversial...
I've just returned from a great ride, a 20 mile loop through the Leicestershire countryside, including 3 country parks, plenty of ups and downs.
I was riding my Mondraker Crafty with a Bosch gen 4 motor.
Here it comes, It only has 85Nm and 600w!!!
I averaged 12mph and mainly used Tour+ with a brief 10 minutes or so in Emtb+ mode, returning home with 68% battery.
I appreciate that there is no direct correlation between need and want, but I neither need or want 100+Nm of torque or 750+watts of power, I've never been in a situation where I thought "if only?"
The motor manufacturers see this increased power/torque want from the majority as a great selling point, but nobody actually needs it.
Forget the power struggle and the apparent want for more, enjoy what you have or you'll never be satisfied.

 

[Montana St Alum]

That's not controversial. My wife is 73. We live in Utah and ride from 7000' to almost 10,000' elevation. A typical 15 mile ride will have about 2000' of elevation gain, with a hard ride getting over 3000'. She's on a Trance X with 85NM available but never uses more than 50NM and 200% support. But I can understand needing more power. A young fit guy with little kids may need to hammer up a climb quickly to get downhill laps in between "honeydo" projects or work. While that's not my objective, someone like that probably gets his money's worth out of a more powerful motor.

 

[Darren66]

That's not controversial. My wife is 73. We live in Utah and ride from 7000' to almost 10,000' elevation. A typical 15 mile ride will have about 2000' of elevation gain, with a hard ride getting over 3000'. She's on a Trance X with 85NM available but never uses more than 50NM and 200% support. But I can understand needing more power. A young fit guy with little kids may need to hammer up a climb quickly to get downhill laps in between "honeydo" projects or work. While that's not my objective, someone like that probably gets his money's worth out of a more powerful motor.

I see it as a want as opposed to need, "if it's available, I want it" attitude.
I know a few people who have an original Amflow with M1 100+Nm motor, this was the best thing since sliced bread, they had to dial the motor back to allow riding buddies to keep with them, now the newer M2/M2s motors have been released, the original isn't sufficient, I need more!
Is an 85Nm emtb sufficient, yes more than.

 

[Brawwp]

This may be controversial, but how about people on this forum quit telling others what they want/need? Just because you don’t want to go faster or can’t go faster doesn’t mean I need to be limited to your slow speed. A lot of emtbrs I come across are very very slow and that’s ok, but just because that’s your pace doesn’t mean I need to listen to your idea on motor restrictions lol.

Go enjoy your 85nm and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing..

 

[Bomble]

This may be controversial, but how about people on this forum quit telling others what they want/need? Just because you don’t want to go faster or can’t go faster doesn’t mean I need to be limited to your slow speed. A lot of emtbrs I come across are very very slow and that’s ok, but just because that’s your pace doesn’t mean I need to listen to your idea on motor restrictions lol.

Go enjoy your 85nm and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing..

Want more power, adjustable overrun, better traction control, navigation, boost function, timely updates without delete/redownloading app.

It’s like you guys want the avinox without saying you want the avinox . Come to the dark side. It’s fun and apparently driving the prices down per specialized.

Hhmm

 

[Brawwp]

Hhmm

touché

 

[Darren66]

This may be controversial, but how about people on this forum quit telling others what they want/need? Just because you don’t want to go faster or can’t go faster doesn’t mean I need to be limited to your slow speed. A lot of emtbrs I come across are very very slow and that’s ok, but just because that’s your pace doesn’t mean I need to listen to your idea on motor restrictions lol.

Go enjoy your 85nm and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing..

I don't worry about what everyone else is doing...
I get a sense from your comment that it's probably a need in your case, go for a ride or two with the motor switched off, it'll strengthen your legs a little.

 

[Brawwp]

I don't worry about what everyone else is doing...
I get a sense from your comment that it's probably a need in your case, go for a ride or two with the motor switched off, it'll strengthen your legs a little.

lol nah brada I’ll just blast by with my aerodynamic twigs.

The point is, there’s already 600000 threads on here about restricting bikes since the avinox released. It’s exhausting. All you guys that have lower power bikes telling everyone that you don’t go above 85nm ever, nobody needs that, etc etc. Like, good for you? Is it not ok that some of us enjoy that extra speed and power? Look at the 30 Bosch power update threads. People very obviously want more power. I’m not trying to get in a pissing match but I’m pretty positive I’m more fit than the majority on here, but I don’t love the workout aspect of mtbing. It’s a nice little benefit, but I’ll take the speed to get to the downhill every time. If I could teleport to the top of downhills on a non power dh bike I’d do that lmao.

If 85nm is all you could ever want then that’s awesome man. Good for you!

 

[Brawwp]

That last ride you did at 85nm that got you stoked. Now imagine you put the exact same effort into your pedals, but you’re going faster, covering more ground, getting to that downhill fun section 6 times instead of 2 times that day. The uphill speed your carrying now you can pop off some stumps, bumps, make the uphill a little funner. You’re physically putting in the same effort, but covering more ground, more downhill time, more fun. Why is that hard to understand as something people may want?

We can use the same logic you are and ask the question of why do you need an emtb at all? You weak bro? No, you just realized that it opened the door in what you can do in a shorter period of time. More miles, more fun, more speed. You want to go slow and burn more calories today, cool, hit eco and enjoy. But the power can be on tap for when you want it. Don’t knock it until you try it.

 

[wik]

That last ride you did at 85nm that got you stoked. Now imagine you put the exact same effort into your pedals, but you’re going faster, covering more ground, getting to that downhill fun section 6 times instead of 2 times that day. The uphill speed your carrying now you can pop off some stumps, bumps, make the uphill a little funner. You’re physically putting in the same effort, but covering more ground, more downhill time, more fun. Why is that hard to understand as something people may want?

We can use the same logic you are and ask the question of why do you need an emtb at all? You weak bro? No, you just realized that it opened the door in what you can do in a shorter period of time. More miles, more fun, more speed. You want to go slow and burn more calories today, cool, hit eco and enjoy. But the power can be on tap for when you want it. Don’t knock it until you try it.

I completely agree. To each their own. I’ve been a mountain biker for 20 years and ride an older e-bike myself—sometimes I wish I had a little more power—for a relatively simple reason: I have a heart condition (at 45), but I don’t want to give up a hobby I love because of it! On flat terrain or small inclines, the eco mode is enough for me, but here the terrain is really hilly, and on longer climbs, I run out of steam faster than I’d like. There are quite a few lucky folks like me, so it’s actually quite handy to have a bit more power in the motor—just to be able to tackle the climbs that are no longer possible under my own steam. I just wanted to highlight the issue from the perspective of people like me.

 

[Mikerb]

I have 2 Bosch Gen 4 motor bikes at 85nm and a Gen 3 Levo at 90nm. My ride preference is downhill with some berms, drops and jumps. That of course makes motor power somewhat irrelevant when charging downhill.
It does however mean having to climb to get to the highest points.
I also prefer natural forest trails as opposed to bike park manicured trails. My local forest has a number of relatively short but very steep climbs and all are technical with roots and elevation changes. There is one climb probably 2 or 3 times longer than others and with virtually no run up since at the bottom it is deep sand. That one is the biggest challenge.
So my experience is that control is the key issue...not power. If I try any of the climbs in Turbo I invariably lose control....either the front lifting or I lose traction.
I have EMTB set at +5 on the Gen4 motors and using that setting the climbs become relatively easy with complete control even to the extent of being able to stop pedalling momentarilly if I spin up the back wheel, and then pedal again with good traction..........in fact with that setting EMTB is only mode I need for the complete ride. It is the balance between my watts input and motor support that delivers all of that control. I find gear 3 to be the best for all the climbs.

I have the Levo trail mode set in a similar fashion (70/100) and again rarely use any other mode albeit that bike is mostly used for country rides rather than more technical forest trails. I do have to occasionally use Turbo on the Levo though, since the trail mode ( unlike the Bosch EMTB mode) will not give full power regardless how many watts I put in.

On the gen4 Bosch bikes I do not need more power thanks!!

 

[TQFreak]

This, I'm sure will be controversial...
I've just returned from a great ride, a 20 mile loop through the Leicestershire countryside, including 3 country parks, plenty of ups and downs.
I was riding my Mondraker Crafty with a Bosch gen 4 motor.
Here it comes, It only has 85Nm and 600w!!!
I averaged 12mph and mainly used Tour+ with a brief 10 minutes or so in Emtb+ mode, returning home with 68% battery.
I appreciate that there is no direct correlation between need and want, but I neither need or want 100+Nm of torque or 750+watts of power, I've never been in a situation where I thought "if only?"
The motor manufacturers see this increased power/torque want from the majority as a great selling point, but nobody actually needs it.
Forget the power struggle and the apparent want for more, enjoy what you have or you'll never be satisfied.

You just never rode a real powerful electric bicycle. 750W and even 1500W is nothing. I installed 10kW motor controllers into my Bafang M620 and M560RS motors and that is something. If you will ever change your mind those completely integrated plug and play custom motor controllers are there and open sourced, it is never too late to turn to the dark side.

There is a new INNOTRACE 10kW modular motor controller under development designed specifically for mid drive motors that should fit most mid drive motors on the market so you can probably even swap your Bosch gen 4 motor controller for this little beast

VESC based most power dense controller (INNOTRACE Shrimp for middrive motors)

The archive with the current versions of the motor controller files (KiCAD version 10.0.1), Gerber files, CAD files and firmware files can be downloaded here (updated on 2026-05-08). https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H1cO0Xn0t6IBROoDhhICk7BzORAhWdM1/view?usp=sharing There are two PCBs in...

endless-sphere.com

 

[Mikerb]

I have 2 Bosch Gen 4 motor bikes at 85nm and a Gen 3 Levo at 90nm. My ride preference is downhill with some berms, drops and jumps. That of course makes motor power somewhat irrelevant when charging downhill.
It does however mean having to climb to get to the highest points.
I also prefer natural forest trails as opposed to bike park manicured trails. My local forest has a number of relatively short but very steep climbs and all are technical with roots and elevation changes. There is one climb probably 2 or 3 times longer than others and with virtually no run up since at the bottom it is deep sand. That one is the biggest challenge.
So my experience is that control is the key issue...not power. If I try any of the climbs in Turbo I invariably lose control....either the front lifting or I lose traction.
I have EMTB set at +5 on the Gen4 motors and using that setting the climbs become relatively easy with complete control even to the extent of being able to stop pedalling momentarilly if I spin up the back wheel, and then pedal again with good traction..........in fact with that setting EMTB is only mode I need for the complete ride. It is the balance between my watts input and motor support that delivers all of that control. I find gear 3 to be the best for all the climbs.

I have the Levo trail mode set in a similar fashion (70/100) and again rarely use any other mode albeit that bike is mostly used for country rides rather than more technical forest trails. I do have to occasionally use Turbo on the Levo though, since the trail mode ( unlike the Bosch EMTB mode) will not give full power regardless how many watts I put in.

On the gen4 Bosch bikes I do not need more power thanks!!

Just to clarify my 2024 Whyte E160 RSX is my " forest" bike and has the original 85nm and 340% support. I also have a 2022 Whyte E160 RSX which I now only use for country rides and both tyre choice and suspension set up is geared to those less challenging types of ride.
But I also use it a test bed for updates. It had the previous update giving it emtb+. I did not find the particularly useful so did not update the 2024 bike.
I have just loaded the latest update onto the 2022 bike. If I understand the Bosch info correctly it has increased max support from 340% to 600%. Bosch also states the 600% only applies to Turbo and EMTB+ ( and of course only up to the legal cut off speed). Despite that my custom mode settings in the flow app show 600% max support in both emtb and emtb+ ( and turbo). I am riding tomorrow so will see what difference that makes.

 

[ValActionT 750]

For the most part you’re correct. I tend to try and maximize the exercise part of ebike/emountain biking. In actual MTBing often there are really steep sections or bigger rocks sections. It really helps.. EMTB allowed me get over those sections. On the very steep were I’d walk w walk mode, turbo I can get up. You have to control the power and watch your positioning on the bike.
On my Wabash RT egravel bike the 70nm & 500w is definitely plenty. On less techie trails the lighter battery bikes would be plenty also. My 750w allowed me to multi rides without worrying about range if I do use higher assist, esp when tired.
But ya it blow me away people wanting massive amount of power. Especially younger healthier people. I’m 74 with shitty lungs and cranky knees.

 

[Mikerb]

An update after installing the new upgrade on my 2022 Whyte E160 RSX. Today I did a country ride ( by ways, bridleways, farm tracks, single track) of 19 miles with 1350 ft elevation gain. This is a ride I usually do only using EMTB set at 5/3 ( power/dynamic) for the complete ride.........so 85nm/ 340% assistance. Having done the update yesterday I set EMTB at 400%. I set EMTB+ (also tuned as 5/3) to 600% assistance.
In general I found 600 % completely uneccessary except for 2 specific short sections of the ride so EMTB+ was used twice. The first section was a short but steep climb on a track with lots of big loose stone. The second was on a very churned up section of bridleway uphill albeit more a long gradual climb than anything really steep.....but against a strong head wind. Both sections can be hard work but certainly made easier with the 600% assistance.
The rest of the ride was in emtb mode at 400% and I found that really good. No lack of control or feel and noticeably different to 340% in both acceleration and ability to maintain pace. It gave me confidence that emtb set at this assist level would also work on more technical trails and climbs with no downside.
I used c 40% battery on this ride. Even on the same ride it is difficult to compare battery use from one occasion to the next as trail conditions vary. Today the ground was dry and hard but the drier it gets the looser gravel and stone becomes. My impression was that there was no significant increase in battery use, or if there was it was no more than 2 or 3 %.
A couple of other differences I noticed were, firstly the bike seemed to shut down quicker than before when for example we stopped for a drink and chat; and secondly my Kiox seemed a lot more keen to tell me to change down a gear. I suspect the latter was simply because the extra assistance enabled staying in higher gear when in fact it would be better on the motor and drivetrain to change down.
So having experimented with the update I will probably go ahead and install it on the 2024 bike for forest use and copy the same tuning. I doubt EMTB+ at 600% will get used at all in the forest however, whilst I predict EMTB at 400% will help on the short technical climbs

 

[Singletrackmind]

This, I'm sure will be controversial...
I've just returned from a great ride, a 20 mile loop through the Leicestershire countryside, including 3 country parks, plenty of ups and downs.
I was riding my Mondraker Crafty with a Bosch gen 4 motor.
Here it comes, It only has 85Nm and 600w!!!
I averaged 12mph and mainly used Tour+ with a brief 10 minutes or so in Emtb+ mode, returning home with 68% battery.
I appreciate that there is no direct correlation between need and want, but I neither need or want 100+Nm of torque or 750+watts of power, I've never been in a situation where I thought "if only?"
The motor manufacturers see this increased power/torque want from the majority as a great selling point, but nobody actually needs it.
Forget the power struggle and the apparent want for more, enjoy what you have or you'll never be satisfied.

Didn't realize the Amish had made their way back across the pond

 

[Mikerb]

Didn't realize the Amish had made their way back across the pond

There is a big difference between want and need. I must be Amish as well having noted over many miles in various different terrains that my gen 4 bikes are fine as they are and really do not want the characteristics that have taken time to fine tune messed with especially when more power, especially torque, risks greater drivetrain wear, more motor heat, and greater battery consumption. Kudos to Bosch getting it right in the first place with possible exception of the original 340% assistance which should have been c400%

 

[Singletrackmind]

There is a big difference between want and need. I must be Amish as well having noted over many miles in various different terrains that my gen 4 bikes are fine as they are and really do not want the characteristics that have taken time to fine tune messed with especially when more power, especially torque, risks greater drivetrain wear, more motor heat, and greater battery consumption. Kudos to Bosch getting it right in the first place with possible exception of the original 340% assistance which should have been c400%

Just poking a little good natured fun mate! No intention to attack or criticize.

I rode emtbs with "inferior" motor's for years and never gave it a 2nd thought, didn'tworry what someoneelse was riding. Been fortunate enough to own 8 emtbs over last 5 years and they keep getting better every year!

First 4 bikes all had Shimano EP8 variations and noticed a marked improvement as I transitioned to Bosch Gen4/5 offerings. Also thought 2 of the Specialized Brose powered bikes were really great as well.

I was kinda anti DJI for a long time, similar feelings I had when I was initially reluctant to give emtbs a go. Been super happy with my latest 2 (custom Orbea Wild and Crestline S180) Bosch powered bikes and never felt out gunned (Wild has the Race motor since it's my billy goat).

Have happened across a couple riders who were on AM Flows out on the trails and was able to have some brief rides. Was impressed with the motor performance, not too much with the AM Flow bike itself.

After being able to demo a bike with the Avinox M2S motor, I was completely blown away not so much from just a power aspect, but how intuitive and "natural" it felt.

I currently have a Crestline RS181.2 on order, due in June and am waiting until Orbea releases the Avinox powered Wild before deciding on the Wild X, Pivot Shuttle AMP'd or the Mondraker Zendit as it's stable mate.

Being upfront to cite internet references and not not passing them off as my own words but in total agreement, here are other benefits of the Avinox M2S ecosystem:

The Avinox M2S e-mountain bike motor from DJI has indeed shocked the industry with its headline figures—reaching a massive 1,500W of peak power and 150Nm of torque.

However, expert reviewers and trail testers note that the true achievement of the Avinox M2S e-mountain bike motor is not the brute force, but rather the unmatched ride refinement, intelligence, and ecosystem integration.

The Avinox M2S sets a new benchmark through several key features beyond raw power:
1. Intuitive and Controlled Power Delivery
Smart Assistance Algorithms: Instead of delivering unbridled, jerky power that spins out tires, the Avinox M2S smart algorithms ensure power is delivered precisely when needed.
Seamless Automatic Mode: The motor intuitively adapts to rider cadence, force, and trail gradients. This keeps acceleration incredibly smooth and predictable even on steep, technical climbs.

2. Whisper-Quiet and Frictionless Operation
Dual-Gear Meshing Design: Avinox completely eliminated the mechanical "clack" and pedal kickback rattle common in the first-generation M1 motor.
Ultra-Quiet Sound Profile: The system produces sound pressure levels under 45 dBA under full load, meaning it operates with just a subtle, stealthy background whir.
Zero Decoupled Drag: The motor clutch completely disengages when turned off or when riding past the legal speed cutoff, making human-only pedaling feel completely natural and unhindered.

3. Advanced Thermal Management & Efficiency
Flat-Wire Windings: Upgraded flat-wire internals and custom cooling fins optimize heat dissipation.
Consistent Peak Performance: Improved thermals ensure that the motor can sustain high-power output without overheating or throttling down performance on long, grueling ascents.

4. Smart Digital Ecosystem & Customization
In-Frame 2-Inch OLED Touchscreen: The integrated top-tube display functions as a full-fledged cycling computer and control hub.
Deep App Customization: Through the companion mobile app, riders can fully personalize their assist modes, custom-tuning parameters like start assist, maximum torque, and motor overrun. Riders can even dial down the power to mimic a standard e-bike.
Biometric Training & Safety: The system integrates with Apple Find My for security and can pair directly with heart rate straps. The motor will automatically modulate its output to keep a rider perfectly inside their target cardio zone.

5. Seamless Weight-to-Power Ratio
Lightweight Compact Housing: At just 2.63 kg (5.8 lbs), the M2S remains one of the lightest full-power motor units available. This allows boutique bike builders like Pivot, Propain, and Atherton to engineer high-end eMTBs that maintain agile, nimble trail handling.

 

[Mikerb]

Just poking a little good natured fun mate! No intention to attack or criticize.

I rode emtbs with "inferior" motor's for years and never gave it a 2nd thought, didn'tworry what someoneelse was riding. Been fortunate enough to own 8 emtbs over last 5 years and they keep getting better every year!

First 4 bikes all had Shimano EP8 variations and noticed a marked improvement as I transitioned to Bosch Gen4/5 offerings. Also thought 2 of the Specialized Brose powered bikes were really great as well.

I was kinda anti DJI for a long time, similar feelings I had when I was initially reluctant to give emtbs a go. Been super happy with my latest 2 (custom Orbea Wild and Crestline S180) Bosch powered bikes and never felt out gunned (Wild has the Race motor since it's my billy goat).

Have happened across a couple riders who were on AM Flows out on the trails and was able to have some brief rides. Was impressed with the motor performance, not too much with the AM Flow bike itself.

After being able to demo a bike with the Avinox M2S motor, I was completely blown away not so much from just a power aspect, but how intuitive and "natural" it felt.

I currently have a Crestline RS181.2 on order, due in June and am waiting until Orbea releases the Avinox powered Wild before deciding on the Wild X, Pivot Shuttle AMP'd or the Mondraker Zendit as it's stable mate.

Being upfront to cite internet references and not not passing them off as my own words but in total agreement, here are other benefits of the Avinox M2S ecosystem:

The Avinox M2S e-mountain bike motor from DJI has indeed shocked the industry with its headline figures—reaching a massive 1,500W of peak power and 150Nm of torque.

However, expert reviewers and trail testers note that the true achievement of the Avinox M2S e-mountain bike motor is not the brute force, but rather the unmatched ride refinement, intelligence, and ecosystem integration.

The Avinox M2S sets a new benchmark through several key features beyond raw power:
1. Intuitive and Controlled Power Delivery
Smart Assistance Algorithms: Instead of delivering unbridled, jerky power that spins out tires, the Avinox M2S smart algorithms ensure power is delivered precisely when needed.
Seamless Automatic Mode: The motor intuitively adapts to rider cadence, force, and trail gradients. This keeps acceleration incredibly smooth and predictable even on steep, technical climbs.

2. Whisper-Quiet and Frictionless Operation
Dual-Gear Meshing Design: Avinox completely eliminated the mechanical "clack" and pedal kickback rattle common in the first-generation M1 motor.
Ultra-Quiet Sound Profile: The system produces sound pressure levels under 45 dBA under full load, meaning it operates with just a subtle, stealthy background whir.
Zero Decoupled Drag: The motor clutch completely disengages when turned off or when riding past the legal speed cutoff, making human-only pedaling feel completely natural and unhindered.

3. Advanced Thermal Management & Efficiency
Flat-Wire Windings: Upgraded flat-wire internals and custom cooling fins optimize heat dissipation.
Consistent Peak Performance: Improved thermals ensure that the motor can sustain high-power output without overheating or throttling down performance on long, grueling ascents.

4. Smart Digital Ecosystem & Customization
In-Frame 2-Inch OLED Touchscreen: The integrated top-tube display functions as a full-fledged cycling computer and control hub.
Deep App Customization: Through the companion mobile app, riders can fully personalize their assist modes, custom-tuning parameters like start assist, maximum torque, and motor overrun. Riders can even dial down the power to mimic a standard e-bike.
Biometric Training & Safety: The system integrates with Apple Find My for security and can pair directly with heart rate straps. The motor will automatically modulate its output to keep a rider perfectly inside their target cardio zone.

5. Seamless Weight-to-Power Ratio
Lightweight Compact Housing: At just 2.63 kg (5.8 lbs), the M2S remains one of the lightest full-power motor units available. This allows boutique bike builders like Pivot, Propain, and Atherton to engineer high-end eMTBs that maintain agile, nimble trail handling.

Yep I know it was tongue in cheek but just to point out I only use the motor to get back to the top of a downhill and then it is all about bike geo suspension etc with the motor doing nothing. I find the tuning options on the gen 4 cx good enough to tackle tech climbs etc ......but then I prefer older or track cars to modern road cars with all their electronic aids like traction control etc so I am the boss not a computer!

 

[Growmac]

Amazing how much of this is personal preference.

I had a Shimano E8000, and loved how natural it felt despite only having 70 Nm. Honestly, I expected a big difference going to a Bosch Gen4, but it wasn’t that noticeable, and in fact it was much easier to sit against the limiter on the Shimano system.

The biggest difference though is that the Bosch always feels like you’re riding a bike with a motor strapped to it. It doesn’t make you feel super fit like the old Shimano does, it just feels like you have a motor helping out. Possibly as a result, I almost never use Turbo. When I last had it plugged in, over 4,000 miles, only 0.9% were in Turbo, with about a 50/40/9 split between Tour, eMTB, and Eco.

Maybe I’m getting old (have been mountain biking for 37 years), but I find eMTB and 80 Nm enough to keep up with the young whippersnappers I sometimes ride with. In technical wooded singletrack the limit is my skill, not the bike. I’d find more speed, not more power, to be more useful, but then that’s another issue.

 

[Paulquattro]

The point is, there’s already 600000 threads on here about restricting bikes since the avinox released. It’s exhausting.

But to be fair your on nearly every one of them

 

[Mikerb]

Here is a thought for those with pre power upgrade bikes.
I use a gen 3 Levo Comp for country type rides......bridle ways, by ways, single track type mix of routes. So it is a 2025 bike still with 90nm and 400% assist. It has the Mastermjnd TCU but I don't mess with auto tune etc and just use the Spesh app to tune eco, trail and turbo.
I have eco set at 40/60, trail at 70/100 and turbo at 100/100. If I have to do any road sections I use eco, for virtually everything else I use trail. Very rarely use turbo. I am 75 so you may think I would be a good candidate for more nm and watts but that is not my experience.
I suspect some will be thinking my settings will just burn battery and have their settings somewhat lower.
Well yesterday I did a 25 mile country ride of which very little was tarmac, 1800ft elevation, and finished with 50% battery.
So I have found the pedal assist setting far more useful than wanting more nm.
My enduro bike which is Bosch cx gen 4 and mostly used for forest gravity runs with jumps, drops and techy climbs is still at 85nm and I have just done the update increasing assist to 600% from the previous 340%. I virtually only use emtb mode on that bike and have set it at 400%, and only set 600% on emtb+ and turbo. My experience with technical climbs is that control and cadence are the most important variables rather than power. The increased assistance at 400% is noticeable in terms of ease with no loss of control. 600% is too much for techy climbs.

 

[steve_sordy]

My very recent new bike came with the Bosch gen 5 with the latest upgrade 2.0. ie 750W and 120Nm. It is my first Bosch-motored bike, so I have a lot to learn. My first set up was in the LBS and was mainly random finger stabbing, with a small amount of informed guessing. I realised very early on in my first ride, that if I carried on at this rate, I'd be out of battery well before the end of the 24-mile trail. So it was Tour and Eco for me from then on, except where I absolutely had to have EMTB. But deffo no turbo!
With 750W of power coupled with 120Nm, and all the other factors set to maximum, I found Turbo to be uncontrollable, certainly by me. (Looping out, skid outs on corners, wheelspins..).

On subsequent rides I dialled it down a lot and I now have a solid Tour function that resembles my previous Shimano EP8 powered bike when in Trail. That EP8 was 500W and 85Nm, assistance character 8 (1-10), assistance start at max.
Back to the Bosch: Turbo has been reduced to 650W and 110Nm. The dynamic setting is still at -2, the traction control setting recommended by many sources. Still got work to do on Turbo though.
I have hardly looked at Eco (450W and 70Nm) dynamic at zero.
EMTB has been dialled back to 625W and 105Nm, What brought the bike alive was moving the Dynamic setting from standard (ie 0 on a range of -5 to +5) to +2. I didn't alter anything else. The bike became a different machine. There is gold to be mined there!

I am happy enough at the moment with Tour and EMTB, they get me where I want to be, and up I want to get up and as enjoyable and as fast as I can cope with at the moment. The battery consumption is very much better too. For example: (ignoring the poorly set up 1st ride). I did an 18-mile trail with Turbo and EMTB accessing 750W and 120Nm and ended with 12% battery. Also the bike threw me off twice, both uphill wheelies. With it dialled down, it became a more pleasurable and controllable bike. With settings as above, I did the same trail with a few bits added, totalling 20 miles and ended with 33% battery. My knee pain is still there, but now it is manageable and I recover faster.

Right now, I struggle to understand what on earth a 1500W / 150Nm bike could feel like. I guess that if you are a really big guy and are going to chip it and use it as a commuter at speeds in excess of 30mph, then maybe that is where the high power and torque come into their own.

 

[Mikerb]

The battery consumption on that first ride was ridiculous....assume that is a 800 w/h battery? My recent ride of 24 miles used 50% of a 700w/h..
You are told max nm and watts but what you do not know on any bike is the software algorithm for each mode. It is the software that governs the assistance (watts) according to bike speed, rider torque and cadence. That has to be learnt during use.
If you consider techy climbs as one facet of a ride, bike speed will be low...even down to zero and cadence will be moderate. There is no way you can control a techy climb in a gear so low you are spinning the cranks like lunatic. Most of my techy climbs are best done in 3rd gear on a 12 speed cassette/36t chainring..in emtb 85nm/ 400% assist tuned at 5/3. On a gen5 bosch cx I would guess. Max torque and mode power/ dynamic settings would need to reduced ..........regardless I would want to ensure abattery range across a ride was 50 miles .

 

[steve_sordy]

The battery consumption on that first ride was ridiculous....assume that is a 800 w/h battery? My recent ride of 24 miles used 50% of a 700w/h..
You are told max nm and watts but what you do not know on any bike is the software algorithm for each mode. It is the software that governs the assistance (watts) according to bike speed, rider torque and cadence. That has to be learnt during use.
If you consider techy climbs as one facet of a ride, bike speed will be low...even down to zero and cadence will be moderate. There is no way you can control a techy climb in a gear so low you are spinning the cranks like lunatic. Most of my techy climbs are best done in 3rd gear on a 12 speed cassette/36t chainring..in emtb 85nm/ 400% assist tuned at 5/3. On a gen5 bosch cx I would guess. Max torque and mode power/ dynamic settings would need to reduced ..........regardless I would want to ensure abattery range across a ride was 50 miles .

The Santa Cruz Vala has a 600 W-hr battery as standard. It can be removed, but it is not a quick job and it is better to consider it as FIXED. I have a Bosch 250 W-hr range extender that I haven't used yet. I agree that the battery consumption on the first ride was ridiculous, but after scaling down the power and torque to more controllable levels, I am doing considerably better now. More progresstill to come!

 

[Montana St Alum]

The Santa Cruz Vala has a 600 W-hr battery as standard. It can be removed, but it is not a quick job and it is better to consider it as FIXED. I have a Bosch 250 W-hr range extender that I haven't used yet. I agree that the battery consumption on the first ride was ridiculous, but after scaling down the power and torque to more controllable levels, I am doing considerably better now. More progresstill to come!

The EMTBReview guy ran the 700wh battery on the Amflow PX out of juice in about 28 minutes, and that was with 150W input from the rider.
It's probably not a huge surprise that a 1500w draw out of a 750wh battery (to make the math easy) would drain the battery in half an hour, or close to it.

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